Manitoba Mountain, Alaska: SKI DREAMS DO COME TRUE!

[Zeedashbo]

looks great. i'm excited

[snomaster]

These took about 3 minutes to find. There are unfortunately many others. Hopefully those that perished are resting in peace. I don't think there is anyone on this forum who has skied OB out of a ski area that can claim they haven't had moments where they could have been one of these accidents. Don't be a jackass.

You and others here seem to be saying 'stop. don't develop, and don't provide easier access to dangerous avalanche terrain.'
I disagree with that mentality. I say go for it while encouraging education and creating gate access boundries with heavy warning/disclaimer signs. let people wipe their own ass.

[snomaster]

JHMR does little to promote Cody, Jenson Canyon, Granite Canyon etc.

For the record, there was a trail map back around 2005 that had Central Couliour (Cody) named in print. I want to remember them updating the map that same season and printing without naming central, though cody peak was definitly still there. I feel that was a responsible move.

If it's not already blatently obvious, I'm pushing for Manitoba to handle their boundries the same as JHMR. Some of you apparently take serious issue with this.

[powdork]

For the record, there was a trail map back around 2005 that had Central Couliour (Cody) named in print. I want to remember them updating the map that same season and printing without naming central, though cody peak was definitly still there. I feel that was a responsible move.

If it's not already blatently obvious, I'm pushing for Manitoba to handle their boundries the same as JHMR. Some of you apparently take serious issue with this.

i can't imagine why.

[snomaster]

good point, thanks for the reminder.

[bigfreeskier]

I've skied with him plenty and the guy can straight throw down.... on teles he's better than 95% of ripping alpiners! He's been working on a few different areas to put a ski area for 10+ years, this is first time it looks like a true reality!!!!

[bigfreeskier]

You are totally high if you think that "there is a safe route out in all but the gnarliest of avy cycles". It is a dumb place to be in anything other than green light situations. Check out "Snowy Torrents" from the late 70s - a few people got wrapped up in a big slide in there, one lived the others showed up in June.

As access to this area is completely open I don't really see any reason for a resort. I will however be happy to bitch loudly if skinning access to the area is to suffer at all. And all of you talking about the cowboy Alaska scene - then talking radios and guides and waivers for an area you can ski already! can piss off.

Safe is all relative!

[wendigo]

Ummm main difference with comparing this to Hudson Bay Mountain is that Alyeska is 40 minutes away from Manitoba Mt.

snowmast you say " let people wipe their own ass." great well how about they walk their own ass up the mountain first.

Notice that nobody is interested in the terrain that would be within the ski boundaries. That is because it is a great place to take beginner skiers who want to learn about the backcountry, but pretty much it is boring. So they close the ropes and you have a boring area that has now closed off some terrain that is pretty much green light in all conditions = lame.

[stalefish3169]

You and others here seem to be saying 'stop. don't develop, and don't provide easier access to dangerous avalanche terrain.'
I disagree with that mentality. I say go for it while encouraging education and creating gate access boundries with heavy warning/disclaimer signs. let people wipe their own ass.

I never said anywhere in here that I'm against development. The first word I responded with in this thread was, "nice." I'm just interested in discussing some very real potential consequences. I also think the part in the ROD from Silverton that claims people can't access public land from Silverton (earlier in thread) is worth going over. "Letting people wipe their own ass" sometimes leads to SAR/patrol/good samaritans, putting themselves in harm's way for other peoples' mistakes and getting shit on themselves. Have you considered this?

[carpathian]

Wendigo,

I wasn't comparing anything to Alyeska. I was comparing the layout of Hudson Bay and it's surrounding backcountry to the as of yet unbuilt Manitoba ski area and it's surrounding backcountry. Just to clarify...

[AKturnanburn]

Speaking of Alyeska, I wonder how much interest there would even be in this proposal if they were to actually open their boundaries (as hyped and promised when JB3 picked it up).

[wendigo]

carp - my bad. I was trying to say that Hudson Bay doesn't have anything around it. While Manitoba has Alyeska nearby.

AKturn - good question

For the record, I tend to be against the Manitoba project, but I could be convinced otherwise. I dig tiny ski areas with fun terrain (shames, eaglecrest, powmow, etc.) and am likely one of the people this project is targeting. However, I'm happy to go multiple seasons without buying a lift pass and it would be really disappointing to see an area that is open to all (non-motorized) users get closed off in a pay to play scenario.

[covert]

I also think the part in the ROD from Silverton that claims people can't access public land from Silverton (earlier in thread) is worth going over.

I don't think the BLM ROD is much of a precedent setter since historically lots of ski areas have closed boundaries. That would be a decision for the Forest Service and maybe also for MRA re whether they wanted to pursue a project with a closed boundary. Doesn't seem like that's the case.

[carpathian]

I think JB3 can exert pressure to open the Headwall and Monies etc but when it comes down to it, Kennedy lays down the law. The Headwall was opened more then ever before right after he bought the place, but I that happened to coincide with stable snow conditions. Last season's snow pack was joke and did the headwall even open?

Alyeska backcountry gate options are very limited. Basically the Saddle (at top of Headwall), maybe Center Ridge (which would just put higher up on the Headwall), and end of Max's Traverse. All of this terrain spills right back into the regular resort area.

In general I would be in favor or going all the way up Center Ridge (alyeska pin) as you would not be climbing straight up the potentially loaded headwall to gain access. BY loaded I mean whatever snow is left over after daily Howitzer bombings.

Either way you need patrol cache at the top and a patroller on bump waiting to respond. That leads back to budget issues where patrollers are allowed zero overtime this coming season even for AC work etc.



The only real solution that I could see would be having lift service to the top of Center Ridge therefore opening all the terrain mentioned above AND creating easy access into adjacent backcountry right off the ridge that does not affect 'inbounds terrain.'

Then we'd be getting on Big League on daily basis, as seen from my driveway
(I need to call the Railroad to come cut that blasted tree!)



Manitoba is lucky in that regard. All potential backcountry falls away from inbounds.
As seen in this perfectly scaled clay model I made

[AKturnanburn]

Be honest wendingo, if your still allowed to use the area (I can't imagine you wouldn't be) would you really tour for tracked out terrain?

FWIW-Last season was the first in 22 that I didn't have a seasons pass to a resort.

Carp, you have too much time on your hands, don't you have a real job? ;-)

A bootpack up center ridge would make for a whole nother beast. Kennedy's montra as snow safety director is; not on my watch. That leaves no room for error, which I fully understand. In the end it's JB's responsibility to provide the funding to have those areas as an option. when it all went down everyone was sooo stoked for the new resort, I said talk is cheap, apparently, in the end, so is JB. Oh wait, $300,000 for the pipe... 300ft above sea level, awesome.

[wendigo]

i rarely hit manitoba proper, usually when avy conditions are complete crap, or i'm taking a beginner out and they need some training wheels, or the occasional lazy day. i sure as shit wouldn't hit it all tracked out.

however, there are a number of times i've used the area to pass through to other locations -

you can't tour at all at arctic valley - even when they are closed during the week. i would hate to see manitoba turn into that.

either way i will be shocked if this thing can get off the ground and sustain itself - there is a reason alaska has 93 "lost ski areas" alsap and it isn't because the people starting them up weren't stoked...

[carpathian]

Off the top of my head I compiled a list of non motorized zones between Girdwood and Moose Pass. Each named mountain is usually synonymous with an adjacent creek drainage by the same name i.e. many multiple ski runs:

Alyeska --> Big League (Virgin Creek)
Petersen Headwall (Kern Creek)
Portage, Byron, Carpathian etc

Turnagain

Wolverine, Sharks Fin, Eddies, Tincan, Sunburst, Magnum, Pastoral, Grandaddy, Cornbiscuit, Peat's, Bertha Creek

Johnson Pass

Captains Chair, Twin Peak, (see clay model)

Turn to Hope, Alpenglow, TigerTail, Palmer Creek

Back Seward Highway

Manitoba, Summit Pass (old ski hill Lake Lodge), Fresno, Gilpatrick etc

Moose pass, Crown Point etc etc

I honestly never ski tour on manitoba itself because it is--- uuhhh, kinda low angle and boring. If you go up there you are cruising out the backside, which would be extra super sweet if there was a little surface lift to get you on your way! IMO

This list does not include the 1000 or so drainages north of Girdwood, though Anchorage, Eagle River, all the way to Hatchers...

[covert]

awesome. it has a dark foreboding air. can you do evil gumby?

[AKturnanburn]

you can't tour at all at arctic valley - even when they are closed during the week. i would hate to see manitoba turn into that.

either way i will be shocked if this thing can get off the ground and sustain itself - there is a reason alaska has 93 "lost ski areas" alsap and it isn't because the people starting them up weren't stoked...

I don't think you understand the ethos and style of the folks behind this, in no way is this a profiteering venture (ha). illogical and unreasonable issues that we all have dealt with, as skiers, from ski area managements worldwide, would be approached from an entirely different angle. The elite condos and extensive housing developments will flow with the massive infrastructure seamlessly. I propose heated travertine parking lots to accompany the marble walkways.

[Dside11-11]

This project is a truly beautiful thing. Clueless people making judgments from afar, and imposing their own personal risk boundaries on others never cease to annoy the crap out of me - there are so many drainages like those depicted above in the San Juans (lightyears-sketchier snowpack), that get skied safely all the time. It's okay that you don't want to take that risk - we respect that - respect others' risk tolerances even if it means they might be getting it in a place you would never go. Nonetheless - that this thing is happening is so freaking cool!

[powdork]

To those who mentioned Jackson. JHMR does little to promote Cody, Jenson Canyon, Granite Canyon etc.

TGR, much different story, but Jackson isnt retarded and isnt going to market to the masses how badass the Northeast Passage is, cause GUAR-AN-FUCKING-TEED, some gaper would see it and plummet off a cliff to his eminent demise.

Manitoba is now using their OB as their primary marketing tool. That liability is now theres, and frankly, someone will die there and theres no way in hell Manitoba has the funds to fight off a law suit.

They need to get their shit together on this aspect. Its not even flying on TGR cause that is a massive terrain trap with little to no chance of survival if one does get caught. At least Cody here in Jackson has a huge fucking runout to probe around in, Manitoba, not so much.

so below is the picture again. it is a pretty damn wide valley AND more importantly this picture is taken in early november, before there really was a snowpack to die in. the riverbed will most likely be flat and many of what are now terrain traps will be completely filled in. Also, it's a maritime snowpack which is waaaaaaaay easier to deal with than anything in wyoming. the sky is NOT falling. it is something to consider when they formulate their bc policy, but even after consideration the decision could be completely open access.

[BFD]

I do not spend alot of time in this area. However I do think you do not know what you are talking about Powdork.

[powdork]

I do not spend alot of time in this area. However I do think you do not know what you are talking about Powdork.

my post was in contrast to to adironriders
will it not be much more filled once the traditional season starts (i could be wrong, last year could have been huge early for you guys, it was everywhere else across the west)?
is it not a maritime snowpack, and therefore much safer and predictable than a continental?
is the sky falling?
is it not reasonable to think that one of their options could be open access?
exactly what part is it where you don't think i know what i'm talking about. it's true i lack local knowledge there, but it's not like i went out on a limb.

[BFD]

Discussion
This avalanche was a perfect example of the type of snow conditions that persisted in the 2010/11 winter.
Shallow snow, well developed weak layers above and below an ice crust, and the possibility of triggering
avalanches long after storms. The Summit region is always a shallower snowpack than Turnagain Pass,
but this year it was especially continental in character. On many occasions it only took small amounts of
new snow to cause avalanche reactivity, and the hazard lingered longer than normal.
http://www.cnfaic.org/accidents/accindex.php
I included the full link. Summit is just down the road from Manitoba.

[wendigo]

last season was "a colorado snowpack, without the sun"


powdork - open access is the policy now. why jeopardize that for a couple of surface lifts? this thing is being presented as an access to big lines, but these are fully accessible (no camping out) without lifts.

Until mra can come forth with a clear plan that shows what access is - i'm for no restrictions at all - and how they can establish this through their insurance and the forest service then i see no reason to support this venture at all. maybe they have that all laid out - but their website is a pile of shit and doesn't answer any real questions.