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  1. #26
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    i don't know the details as they will be worked out. all i mentioned was that when they come up for a plan for bc access (presumably only for those that use a lift) consideration must be given to the dangers of the area, one of which would be parties exiting after they ski the headwall while others ski down from above. i don't know why this would prevent anyone from skinning there, and i wouldn't think any regulations would apply to those who didn't access via a lift. although again, i don't know the details. obviously, skinning there would have it's drawbacks since the area would likely (undoubtedly?) see more traffic.
    keep in mind, i'm of the opinion that anything that gets more people to do what we do is a good thing, even if it means i have to get up earlier or go farther to do it.
    powdork.com - new and improved, with 20% more dork.

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by snomaster View Post
    oh fuck, it can avalanche there into a terrain trap? better blockade any affordable resort development! Ever been to the side country of major western NA or European resorts? internet critics are so brilliant, eh?
    These took about 3 minutes to find. There are unfortunately many others. Hopefully those that perished are resting in peace. I don't think there is anyone on this forum who has skied OB out of a ski area that can claim they haven't had moments where they could have been one of these accidents. Don't be a jackass.



    http://avondell.com/skiing/1999/Shuksanavi.html

    http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/the...&pid=152824898

    http://www.avalanche.org/data.php?da...1&sort=&id=136





    http://www.jhnewsandguide.com/article.php?art_id=1482

    http://www.avalanche.org/data.php?da...6&sort=&id=368

    http://www.avalanche-center.org/Inci...4-Colorado.txt

    http://pointofrelease.com/news/skier...hwest-passage/

    http://avalanche.org/data.php?date=2...07&sort=&id=82

    http://avalanche.org/data.php?date=2...7&sort=&id=101

    http://pointofrelease.com/news/skier...body_text_link

  3. #28
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    Wendingo your right, I was thinking of mills creek.

    But, I have yet to hear anything about a resort and any restrictions on skinning.

    A few surface tows does not a "resort" make. Semantics! You may say but I'm looking at the bigger picture and who in the immediate area will be affected. I tend to agree that infrastructure and progress through construction are moving away from where we need to be as humans on this ball, but the opportunities presented are farther reaching then just a extreme resort where you can cowboy Ak and get rad with your bros. Honestly, I'm not really much of a resort skier anymore and have no problem exploring and getting to the top of it all without a bunch of hassle, but the local resources available at such low cost, harm and impact are undeniable.

  4. #29
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    good to hear Scanlan is actually a skier. So Jim Turner in a wool sweater. After 30 years skiing in AK. I am skeptical when I read this stuff. Hatcher Pass, Eagle River new chairs at Alyeska. Where are they. What happened to the bridge they were going to build in their previous press release?
    off your knees Louie

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by MtnRA View Post
    Here's a good look at the Juneau Creek drainage, taken November, 2010.

    The point has ben made well, and is fair. Based on the photo, that is a classic terrain trap below complex terrain capable of producing big slides with high destructive force. The consequences are too high, the Plan B's are too few. And lots of chances for human triggers above you as you exit. I'd almost never ski that type of terrain myself if there were alternatives of equal size but lower consequences available. Everyone has different risk tolerances.
    Life is not lift served.

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by AKturnanburn View Post
    The pics are deceiving, the drainage is much wider than it looks, there is a safe route out in all but the gnarliest of avy cycles. That terrain makes for a bit of a plopper slide path with it going from steep to flat in a relatively short distance, dissipating the energy. There is a small section that goes to a terrain trap though.
    Uhhh? Not trying to be a hard on but I'd just like to state for the record that when a slide path goes from steep to flat abruptly, it's generally thought to be a terrain trap.

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpathian View Post
    Here is Dave tele shredding in the mighty Kenai Mountains (someone embed please?)

    http://www.youtube.com/carpathianskis#p/u/8/LUiFx1zCpTs

    Dave was my first ski customer ever, as seen shredding on a pair of Big Dippers. So I feel obliged to support his first mountain project A win/win deal if you ask me!

  8. #33
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    For the sake of argument, why should a ski area do anything to address the risk taking behavior of people that leave the boundary?

  9. #34
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    ^death/=sustainability
    powdork.com - new and improved, with 20% more dork.

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by covert View Post
    For the sake of argument, why should a ski area do anything to address the risk taking behavior of people that leave the boundary?
    In my unrealistic perfect imaginary world, they shouldn't.

    But if they were to sell the appeal of their commercial lift services by leveraging the out of bounds terrain as an asset, then eventually they will probably have to take some form of responsibility for customers who suffer loss in the OB terrain, if that terrain is deemed "high risk" in the eyes of a "reasonable person" or perhaps a "reasonable expert". A litmus test of that might be found by surveying a population of UIAGM guides to see how many would prefer not to guide a group of 8 through that terrain.
    Life is not lift served.

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hohes View Post
    if they were to sell the appeal of their commercial lift services by leveraging the out of bounds terrain as an asset, then eventually they will probably have to take some form of responsibility
    that's a good point. if you sell it you should own it.

    i wouldn't like guiding in that kind of high consequence terrain knowing a group of yahoos could drop on us at any moment...but i guess that's the norm in places like chamonix, la grave, lenas and elsewhere.

  12. #37
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    I like to see the legal deal Ski Smithers has with the surrounding land owners (the Crown aka Canada). You can just zip right out of the boundary anywhere in to major avy zones with terrain traps. We did it all the time with no radios etc.

  13. #38
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    I like to see the legal deal Ski Smithers has with the surrounding land owners (the Crown aka Canada). You can just zip right out of the boundary anywhere in to major avy zones with terrain traps. We did it all the time with no radios etc.
    Exactly as it should be. If you fuk up its your problem!

    No coddling, its up to you if you want to take the risk. Getting guides involved is asking for a law suit. Some one dies on a guided tour and boom, end of ski resort!!

  14. #39
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    Looks like the Manitoba backcountry is USFS, but might this set some sort of precedent?

    http://www.blm.gov/co/st/en/BLM_Info...silverton.html

    I've only been to Silverton twice and was w/ a guide both times. It was guided only to begin with, correct?

    Hmmmm.....This is interesting:

    From the Silverton ROD

    1.5.6 - Safety
    23. Public lands adjoining SOLRC’s private lands will be closed to winter access by SOLRC visitors which will reduce the possibility of their being harmed by avalanches in the surrounding, unmanaged terrain. (Queue angry pitch-fork wielding locals)
    Last edited by stalefish3169; 10-12-2011 at 03:27 PM.

  15. #40
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    To those who mentioned Jackson. JHMR does little to promote Cody, Jenson Canyon, Granite Canyon etc.

    TGR, much different story, but Jackson isnt retarded and isnt going to market to the masses how badass the Northeast Passage is, cause GUAR-AN-FUCKING-TEED, some gaper would see it and plummet off a cliff to his eminent demise.

    Manitoba is now using their OB as their primary marketing tool. That liability is now theres, and frankly, someone will die there and theres no way in hell Manitoba has the funds to fight off a law suit.

    They need to get their shit together on this aspect. Its not even flying on TGR cause that is a massive terrain trap with little to no chance of survival if one does get caught. At least Cody here in Jackson has a huge fucking runout to probe around in, Manitoba, not so much.
    Live Free or Die

  16. #41
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    Good point on the 'promoting the backcountry' issue. Ski Smithers managament was totally against using the awesome surrounding sidecountry as marketing tool because it is outside their liablity control. I know because I was trying to push them that direction and they said NO!

    Need to promote inbounds skiing and hope the people figure the backcountry thing out on their own.

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpathian View Post
    I like to see the legal deal Ski Smithers has with the surrounding land owners (the Crown aka Canada). You can just zip right out of the boundary anywhere in to major avy zones with terrain traps. We did it all the time with no radios etc.
    well actualy carp i got this e-mail last week from HBM and I had to look around me to see if hell had frozen over ?


    """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
    ANNOUNCING . . .



    The brand new North Face Low Traverse and Egress!


    We are pleased to announce new terrain for 2011/12 season which will significantly improve our advanced ski and board experience. As many of you know the terrain in the area identified as 6.0, 7.0 and on up to 9.0 has had a varied ski out track with various routes. This year will be different and much better. We are improving the lowest track which means many things.

    For most of you it will give more vertical skiing before turning toward Skyline Chair 230 feet more vertical (70m). It will also open up the area beyond 7.0 for all out of bounds skiers and boarders rather than just those in the know.

    This trail will also improve safety in the area as it will be easier to see and the trees will be marked with small signs highlighting the route. If needed it will be possible to bring a normal rescue toboggan out on this trail, something that is not possible today.

    The trail will now have an average 12% slope so all boarders and skiers will be able to maintain momentum along the trail back to Skyline chair



    This area is out of bounds to the north from the top of Sky-line Chair. For those familiar with this area the yellow line indicates the route most people take out which is really just a traverse line across a steep slope. The red (lower) line indicates the improved route that is the lowest possible line back to the bottom of Skyline. This serves approximately 110 hectares of Out of Bounds terrain. The snow in this area is the finest on the mountain as it dumps here after passing over the top of the mountain.

    This work is underway now and will be completed by the end of October. This is a dramatic improvement for all who ski and board in this area. For those advanced intermediate and expert skiers and boarders who have not explored this area we invite you to try it out if you savour the adventure of going Out of Bounds.
    Just stay safe!



    """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" """"

    there is a picture too buit I the suck

    I think they are buffing out that lowest traverse with the bridge on it which I know as "Eckards return " but the big thing is that the ski hill managment ARE acknowledging the existance of side country but why perhaps a marketing ploy to sell RE ... nothing else has worked ?

    now they really need to put some signage over the cliff to funnel people safely to either side, I mentioned before but patrol said well we can't mark it because then we might be liable ... better they leave their heads in the sand and let people get cliffed out
    Last edited by XXX-er; 10-12-2011 at 05:09 PM.

  18. #43
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    XXX, that is real interesting. You'd agree that the area immediately adjacent to 9.0 aka Little Simpson is a huge gnarly terrain trap. I'm sure the long time locals are miffed that the jongs are gonna be getting in there. Seems like can o worms?

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by AdironRider View Post
    To those who mentioned Jackson. JHMR does little to promote Cody, Jenson Canyon, Granite Canyon etc.
    Do you mean besides promoting top dollar guided trips on their website? The guides take people to those places don't they?

  20. #45
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    A thing to think about is how much traffic will this area actually see? It's not Jackson or any other major destination resort, it's a local hill with a limited amount of traffic I would think so would it really be that bad as far as overuse in a dangerous area? How many rich gapers are going to be planning their ski vacation to go to this surface lift ski area? I'm guessing not many.

  21. #46
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    One more thought, most accidents from the uneducated I bet happen in areas that are direct skis directly out of bounds that have very little if any hiking, this terrain looks like it takes a pretty good climb to access the majority of it. I think it will naturally weed out those that shouldn't be there.

  22. #47
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    Here is shot from across highway on Fresno Ridge looking to Manitoba/Silvertip. Silvertip is the big peak in center of massif.



    Google earth image looking east with highway at bottom, Juneau Creek at right. Lots of drainages in the area would be easily accessible. The highway circles around the left out of sight then picks up on other side of mtn group.



    Slightly different here, Juneau creek under clouds there at right.



    Looking south with Manitoba at upper right and Summit Pass beyond. highway circle under camera view. All of these runs will lead to highway pick up points



    Looking west directly over Silvertip Peak. Maniotoba at upper left. It is a real nice asthetic little mountain. As you can see more then one 'terrain trap' to worry about as a bc skier. More then a few mountains that people ski in ak lead to terrain traps.



    Comes back to boundary gate policy still...

  23. #48
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    No hiking would be required to get out of bounds. But the majority of ob would require hiking, if that makes sense? Like at top of Showcase tbar in whistler, all the masses head straight out, but they use heli to mitigate terrain.

    Here are some shots looking at what XXX is talking about:



    The chair runs up to the top if the runs at upper left. He is talking about a traverse that goes way lookers right towards the Mine. You can cruise that road to town. The Echart turn is right under the Fin. The whole steep area with all of the names is known as the Toegnars. All very steep super gnar trees. 99% of skiers go all the way around or don't go at all.

    Typical skiing looks like this:



    Zoom out and see relation to more of Hudson bay mountain and Little Simpson death trap



    And then zoom out to rest of mountain


    with runs like the Chute aka Ice Cooler seen here:



    Steep as heck, wind scour super gnar 1/2 tour from top of lift? No problem! Is canada cool with open bounds because of the whole health care thing?
    Last edited by carpathian; 10-12-2011 at 10:08 PM.

  24. #49
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    Holy Fawk that looks AMAZINGLY SICK! Gapers might not want to go there for a vacation but I sure am in!

  25. #50
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    Now you have me all waxing nostalgic for Hudson Bay Mountain It has been exactly a year since we moved north from there. When I started talking with the MRA guys I could not help but think of how HB has a similar layout to Manitoba in regards to surrounding backcountry.

    Speaking of terrain traps, old post here

    With the temps dropping to -30C and no snow I figured I might as well go look at this avalanche in Simpsons and ski it for the first time this year. You can see Transformer Ridge off on the far left, across the Prairie. This shot is 5 minutes from top of chair.



    To the far right is the Simpson Drainage. I traversed around and skied the slope above from the top of the roll and skied onto the tree shoulder between Big and Little Simpson.



    This shot is from the top of the Treed Ridge looking back to where the first shot was. The top of the lift is over the rise. Look at those gnarly lines that no one has skied. I have skied in far lookers left, right along the cliff, but have never really gotten into the meat of it.



    This is one of the cleanest lines and as you can see it is scary. Blind cliff entrance, and two mandatory airs in the middle. Looks doable though. Might be best to climb up from the bottom? This zone is ALWAYS in the shade.



    I skied the Treed Ridge to the right and hooked up with old Simpson road for 4000 feet to town, in the far distance.


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