Who rows? (Concept2)

[Art Shirk]

I love rowing but have no clue if I am/was any good at it. In college, I tried out for all the club sports that I could in order to simply learn the rules/technique and then didn't actually participate on any teams (except the faggy tennis team). I got knocked out cold in the boxing gym, put through the paces on the volleyball court, and had my bell rung on the rugby pitch, but nothing compared to the torture that the crew dude put me through. Insane work-out.

[kingdom-tele]

I'm still trying to figure that out - when I started last year I was going like 28-30 and faster for shorter intervals, but then I read a bunch on a couple of different forums and everybody says you want to be slow on the C2, like 20-21, and focus on being explosive at the catch and long in the finish. I actually don't quite get the theory but it seems well-accepted as gospel so that's what I've been trying to do. Going fast while going slow is hard. You have to pull like a motherfucker. And you've really got to slow down the recovery and break it into a deliberate sequence of arms, then body, then legs, one piece at a time.

I just did 5000m and kept it right on 21 the whole time, I went out too fast (2:00 and 2:05 in the first 1000) and never really recovered and dragged my ass home to finish with a 2:22 average. That shit is hard.

you would if you got in a boat iceman. someone already mentioned it kind of, its called boat check, the bane of every crew. the more the cox's head is rattling the more your killing the boat speed, it comes from poor catch and leg drive timing. aerobic rates were always under 22, both erg and water, 60- 90 min pieces. the slow rates accented the catch timing and boat feel (always loved the sound of the bubbles along the boat), important for when you started at 48-50 and raced at 36-40, there is no time to make drastic adjustments, it had to be engrained in the muscle memory

we were never allowed to train over the 4 setting and I still prefer the 3. while the catch is not as important on the erg, you should still find it easier to keep the fly momentum, and more importantly maintain good technique

check out CRASH-B's, haven't looked in a while, the world record used to be the monster from NZ, 5:23 I believe, make that 5:36, still stands, Waddell was a beast

[RedWolf]

I usually set it between 4-6. It kills me to see guys pull up and try and impress you with a setting of 10 and mash it all the way. A 10 means you will technically go farther per stroke with more recovey time in between strokes. 1 one will be very easy to pull with less drag but distance will suffer. I find a balance between the two depends on strength and endurance. Lower the number generally means you have to increase your stoke rate to maintain the same distance covered and speed. I'm a tall guy so its harder for me to recover back to the initial stroke when stroke rate is higher. I tend to pull a full stoke, right to the end of the seat with a full extension of the chain.

Ah, that's good to know. I started rowing when I started CrossFit a couple of months ago, and I've been pushing it, but never really understood the 10 setting. Since I sub rowing for running on almost every workout, I've been doing a lot of it, and its a damn good challenge. Might have to play with the settings when I go tonight and see if I can get my ass kicked more than usual...

[Mustonen]

Threadjack: I never rowed, as in, I was never in row.... However, I like rowing, and I live on a damned lake.

This thread brought up something I've been thinking about for the past few years: I'd like a fast little single sliding seat rower boat thing. Not a rowboat, I have one of those, and rowing it sucks. Something skiffy...

The Whitehall Spirit 14 looks pretty cool, and it sails too, but it's a little spendy. http://www.whitehallrow.com/rowboats/wh_14_sail.php

Thoughts? Looking to keep it under $2k.

[iceman]

Alden is probably the best-known brand in recreational shells. They are definitely spendy new but I picked up an Alden 16 with the oarmaster 2 rig and a pair of carbon-fiber hatchet oars all for $1400. off craigslist. The boat has a couple scratches in the gelcoat but nothing serious. The only problem is that it's in Massachusetts and I'm in Maryland right now!

[mobygrape]

check craigslist. I've seen a few decent boats for under $1000. A few 16ft alden shells, which would make a great starter boat.

for example:
http://worcester.craigslist.org/boa/2640515878.html

[Oarhead]

Maas is also an option for boats. They are made for open water rowing so they are a lot more stable than a normal racing single. Expensive new but you could probably find one for cheap from a club selling one. A lot of rowing clubs drive big miles to get to races so there is a good chance that you can get a boat close to your home if you have a flexible timetable and get the club to other clubs to relay it to you.

[skifishbum]

ICEMAN ROWS

IN NRS FARMER JOHN JEANS

[PNWbrit]

My go to workout at the gym.

Either long sessions of burst/recover intervals of either 500 or 1000m

or 500m as stages between other equipment/weights on a circuit.

Try to keep stroke rate below 25.

I have one in the basement.....

Need to use it.

Yes you do x 2

[lionelhutz]

THis is a great thread. I grew up rowing, did it at a VERY VERY high level and it's just awesome to see stoke for the sport.
I hear all your questions and would be happy to respond in PM. I coached olympians in Philly for years after college after i realized i was 2 inches too short to be an elite heavyweight, and 10 pounds too strong to be an elite light weight. Oh well.

A few simple points....and again seriously I can go into STUPID depth on any particular question in private....so with the erg you want to set the fan at no more than 3 or 4. More than that and you'll hurt your back. Trust me. I've seen dudes who are built like trees and hammering down at 1:21 /500m blow out the backs because they got macho and went to a 5.
No bueno. Keep it low.
Secondly, WORK ON YOUR CORE. Do lower back exercises if you are going to row. Look at the stroke. The connection between your VERY powerful legs and your VERY powerful back is your shit ass weak lower back and trunk. When the system breaks it breaks there.

As for workouts.
use a heart rate monitor and forget the splits at first.
Basic workouts are like 45-60 min at a low stroke rating- say 18-22 at around 144bpm
THen mix in a few Power 20s...i.e. twenty really hard strokes at the same rating every 6-7 minutes. Once you get comfy take a look at meters and splits. I used to do this (or rather a 10-12k) at like 1:54 /500m
Once or twice do an AT threshold workout-something like 4x12 minutes at 165 bpm. Stroke rating like a 25-26. (I hold about a 1:40-1:44 for these)
For sprints do like 500,750,1000,1250,1000,750,500,250 as hard as possible. Ratings stay the same 28-34 except on the last 500 and 250 when they go to like a 38
And if you really just want to make your self miserable do a 5x2k workout. That's the standard race distance and well its hell. I remember after my best 2k i was so dizzy I went to lean against a trash can and ended up headfirst in it.

As for buying a shell: row2k.com classifieds. They have a few pinert, alden shells for sale on there. Alden and Maas are both good rec boats. I have a really nice Hudson if there are VT locals that want to take a spin on some flat water. Just PM me.

[lionelhutz]

you would if you got in a boat iceman. someone already mentioned it kind of, its called boat check, the bane of every crew. the more the cox's head is rattling the more your killing the boat speed, it comes from poor catch and leg drive timing. aerobic rates were always under 22, both erg and water, 60- 90 min pieces. the slow rates accented the catch timing and boat feel (always loved the sound of the bubbles along the boat), important for when you started at 48-50 and raced at 36-40, there is no time to make drastic adjustments, it had to be engrained in the muscle memory

we were never allowed to train over the 4 setting and I still prefer the 3. while the catch is not as important on the erg, you should still find it easier to keep the fly momentum, and more importantly maintain good technique

check out CRASH-B's, haven't looked in a while, the world record used to be the monster from NZ, 5:23 I believe, make that 5:36, still stands, Waddell was a beast

I was at C.R.A.S.H-B's when Mr. Waddell pulled a 5:39 in 2000. I was something to behold. The fucking machine was BENDING. Not the chain. THE METAL SLIDE. Man's a beast. Oh and he did it at a 2 setting on the flywheel.

Oh and King-tele...you still row? I got a shell on the Lamoille. That there is some flat ass water. Got the run down this am and it was so flat there weren't even bubbles on the hull.

[warthog]

My High School had a pretty good team. Raced at the Head of the Charles, etc.

My buddy from h.s. was a pretty good rower. Went on to quite a college and beyond career-
http://www.fordhamsports.com/genrel/...michael00.html

I think his erg times were pretty good.

[kingdom-tele]

I was at C.R.A.S.H-B's when Mr. Waddell pulled a 5:39 in 2000. I was something to behold. The fucking machine was BENDING. Not the chain. THE METAL SLIDE. Man's a beast. Oh and he did it at a 2 setting on the flywheel.

Oh and King-tele...you still row? I got a shell on the Lamoille. That there is some flat ass water. Got the run down this am and it was so flat there weren't even bubbles on the hull.

14:58 5K. he is certainly unique.

I think it was the 90min+ pieces that were my favorite, from the shallows of the charles all the way to the museum of science and back. you literally faded from reality until you got the "way'nuff" to put the oar handles on the gunwales and see how long you could coast in the dark. it can change a person. of course so could catching a crab in the teeth at the 1,000m sprint

[mobygrape]

thanks for the info lionel. This was my first year rowing, and I slacked off on core work once I started rowing in the spring. After a hard workout, I sure did have a sore lower back.

[kingdom-tele]

I would only add not to forget looking at your hip mobility and seated pelvic/lumbar mobility, a lot of minimizing the spinal load is having the flexibility in sitting to get your low back to a more neutral position at the catch

[mobygrape]

how can a rower tell good form from bad form? I was rowing alone a bit, and thought I was killing it. Then I went out a few times with an older guy, and he pointed out several basic flaws in my technique ( not rolling oars in my hand, elbows way out to the side, etc).

I plan on reading a few books this winter, which should help me understand correct technique.

IE, how can I look at my hip mobility and seated pelvic lumbar mobility? And tell when it is good vs. bad?

[iceman]

Well there's lots of things you could do - hire a coach, join a club, etc., but probably the easiest is just watch video and try to emulate what you see. Set up a cam and film yourself and compare yourself would be the next step But reading and understanding the concepts (there's not that many) should be the first step. There's a number of rowing forums (and concept2 forums in particular) out there.

[The Suit]

how can a rower tell good form from bad form? I was rowing alone a bit, and thought I was killing it. Then I went out a few times with an older guy, and he pointed out several basic flaws in my technique ( not rolling oars in my hand, elbows way out to the side, etc).

I assume you're rowing a single. If you can get some time rowing in a boat with others (double, pair, quad, four, eight), you will learn a huge amount from that experience, because it more or less forces you to row in unison with the other people in the boat.

[iceman]

oh, I assumed he was talking about the erg.

[The Suit]

oh, I assumed he was talking about the erg.

I figured the phrase "went out a few times with an older guy" implied someplace other than a gym. Unless "went out with" meant "dated."

[mobygrape]

ok. I was unclear. I was talking about rowing a single. Not dating an older guy Good info, I'll pick up a couple of books. I got a video, just have not had the time to watch it lately.

edig: and check out the row2k or concept2 forums.

[kingdom-tele]

how can a rower tell good form from bad form? I was rowing alone a bit, and thought I was killing it. Then I went out a few times with an older guy, and he pointed out several basic flaws in my technique ( not rolling oars in my hand, elbows way out to the side, etc).

I plan on reading a few books this winter, which should help me understand correct technique.

IE, how can I look at my hip mobility and seated pelvic lumbar mobility? And tell when it is good vs. bad?

LH can tell you more about scull tech. check out this vid. Koven was a very strong dude but you can see how quiet he is, no wasted effort, all drive, super clean.


it doesn't matter if its the erg, single, or sweep, bad tech will fry your back, if your sliding back and forth and you never notice motion over your sit bones it is coming from your lumbar spine= a matter of time before you can't stand straight. the timing of the leg drive and your lats protects you, shooting your ass means the timing is wonky

having some drills and a coach to give you some direction will help a ton, its as much developing a feel for whats right for you as it is a technique, but you kind of have know what habits will f you up

have fun

[Oarhead]

ok. I was unclear. I was talking about rowing a single. Not dating an older guy Good info, I'll pick up a couple of books. I got a video, just have not had the time to watch it lately.

edig: and check out the row2k or concept2 forums.

If you are brave enough, post it up. Sounds like there are a couple of people that know what they are talking about and can probably give some pointers. If you get another vid, try and get one both from the side and from the stern so that we can see what is happening from 2 angles. There are different styles for rowing but there are some universal tenets that must be followed no matter what style you use. Lots of drills out there that you can do to work on certain aspects of your stroke. Anything in particular that you are having problems with?

Squaring/feathering: happens at the fingers, not the wrist.
Elbows: Out but up at the finish, don't drop them in towards your body (weaker position). The wrist should be flat.

KT: Good example. Jamie K was very smooth. I liked how he rowed.

[lionelhutz]

LH can tell you more about scull tech. check out this vid. Koven was a very strong dude but you can see how quiet he is, no wasted effort, all drive, super clean.


it doesn't matter if its the erg, single, or sweep, bad tech will fry your back, if your sliding back and forth and you never notice motion over your sit bones it is coming from your lumbar spine= a matter of time before you can't stand straight. the timing of the leg drive and your lats protects you, shooting your ass means the timing is wonky

having some drills and a coach to give you some direction will help a ton, its as much developing a feel for whats right for you as it is a technique, but you kind of have know what habits will f you up

have fun

All true. J.K. was a smooth rower. Small guy to be a world champion. Had heart. That video also shows the best part about rowing: the more it looks like you are just taking a nice little row the more misery you are in. The movement of the boat and flopping around retards your ability to exert leverage on the oar and wastes energy. The guys in that video are at such an absurd level of performance but look calm as can be.

The biggest difference on an erg v. the water is that a boat RUNS under you. I.E. you can don't have to pull yourself up to the catch with your hamstrings. Tired hamstrings on the erg = sore lower back. Sore lower back = bad technique = injury. So on the erg think about letting the handle pull you up. It doesn't really but thinking about it decreases the strain on the hammies.

Simple erg technique is to think about firing your muscles in order of power. at the catch, with shins perp. to foot stretches (or there abouts- but not past your ankles) lock the trunk to the hips and fire your legs, as your hands (arms straight) begin to pass your knees during the leg drive phase open the back with your back up and begin the finish half of the stroke. YOu want the handle to hit your right under your tits. Elbows finish out, shoulder blades contracted. Now you'll some rowers who use more of a "C" technique. THis doesn't really employ a powerful back and upright finish. Some people can do it. Others can't. For a newbie i'd steer well clear. THe strong back finish is more stable. Pop the hands out and roll back up to the catch in the reverse order. Slowing your ass down as you approach the catch.
As noted above shooting the ass out without really driving the handle is the #1 mistake. A drill is to sit at the catch and just pop the first 8 inches of leg drive. Over and over till you get that locked feeling. (not recommended- doing this on the square for 6 miles. I still have scars).

[kingdom-tele]

That video also shows the best part about rowing: the more it looks like you are just taking a nice little row the more misery you are in. The movement of the boat and flopping around retards your ability to exert leverage on the oar and wastes energy. The guys in that video are at such an absurd level of performance but look calm as can be.

its really the enjoyable part of anything, rowing, skinning, ski, hike, climb, whatever, every time out you learn a little more, you dial in your ability to reduce the unnecessary effort while taking yourself to higher levels, those days when it just flows are what keep you coming back