the Wasatch's new worst enemy=TALISKER

[The Gnarwhale]

Alternatively, PCMR seeks damages for Talisker’s delay in disclosing its intent to terminate the parties’ agreements. With knowledge that it intended to evict PCMR, Talisker continued to collect rental fees, allowed PCMR to invest over $7,000,000 in infrastructure improvements, and participated in discussions regarding a possible interconnect between the two resorts. PCMR seeks compensatory damages in the amount of $7,000,000 plus interest as well as punitive damages.

http://www.supportpcmr.com/the-lawsuit/

Saw this on the page that PCMR set up to defend it's decision to sue Talisker. I don't recall "official" discussion of a PCMR/Canyons lift elsewhere, though this would be a funny place to announce that ideation.

[brutah]

the SOC has reported the Rep. Jim Matheson has reintroduced the "Wasatch Wilderness and Watershed Protection Act!!!!!!!!!!"

This time he has included special provisions to special management areas to allow mountain biking, helicopter skiing and backcountry skiing in those areas, while expanding wilderness protection. Snowbird is supporting this act this time around, as is many outdoor recreation businesses and the act has backing from all the municipalities that rely on those areas for water!!!

pretty sweet news if you ask me! hopefully, this will pass this time around. I'm so excited I just called all the utah congressmen and senators to tell them I support this act and they should push it through congress as fast as possible!

more here:
http://matheson.house.gov/news-relea...-water-source/

numbers to call below:

Congressman Rob Bishop (call if you are not in his district as he will not accept your email)
(202) 225-0453
http://robbishop.house.gov/ZipAuth.aspx

Congressman Jason Chaffetz (call if you are not in his district as he will not accept your email)
(202) 225-7751
http://chaffetz.house.gov/contact/email-me.shtml

Senator Orrin Hatch
(202) 224-5251
http://hatch.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/email-orrin

Senator Mike Lee
(202) 224-5444
http://lee.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/contact

Congressman Jim Matheson (Encourage him to actively fight this proposal that sells off lands in his district)
(202) 225-3011
https://mathesonforms.house.gov/contact-form#dialog

Governor Gary Herbert
http://www.utah.gov/governor/contact/index.html

Subcommittee on National Parks, Forests and Public Lands.
202-226-7736.

[TheMessenger]

Mountain bikes are banned in wilderness. The bill does not protect anything, is unnecessary, and the ONLY thing it does is ban mountainbikng in the best parts of the Wasatch. DO NOT SUPPORT THIS BILL. Save the future of mountainbiking in the wasatch and call those numbers above and ask them to OPPOSE it!

P.S. And vote that fucker Matheson out of office next time around and kill this horrible bill for good.

[munchthedog]

Mountain bikes are banned in wilderness. The bill does not protect anything, is unnecessary, and the ONLY thing it does is ban mountainbikng in the best parts of the Wasatch. DO NOT SUPPORT THIS BILL. Save the future of mountainbiking in the wasatch and call those numbers above and ask them to OPPOSE it!

P.S. And vote that fucker Matheson out of office next time around and kill this horrible bill for good.

Have you read the bill actually? I can't find it by doing any searches so I would like to see where you found this information that it will ban mountain biking in the best parts of the Wasatch.

[TheMessenger]

Yes I have read the bill. Wilderness designation AUTOMATICALLY bans mountain bikes by it's very nature. In any area that is designated wilderness, it mountainbikes are illegal, which means that you will be fined or put on jail and have a criminal record for the simple act of riding your mountain bike on many of the trails we currently enjoy. Plus it will mean that there will be no new mountainbikes specific trail development in the wasatch which will in effect, kill the sport here.

[munchthedog]

where can you read a copy of the bill? I have searched and am unable to find it. I see mention of wilderness designation but only in select areas(Lone Peak, Twin Peaks, Grandeur) that aren't big mountain bike areas currently.

[TheMessenger]

Super crest-grizzly to days
Days fork downhill
Silverfork
Pole line to Cardiff
Cardiff downhill
Greens basin
Mineral fork
White pine
Mt Aire area
Jacobs Ladder
And surrounds

All CURRENT rides that will be made ILLEGAL. Not to even mention spur trails from the wasatch crest and other trails that will be impossible to exist once the new wilderness takes effect. The future of mountain biking in the Wasatch will be stunted irreparably by this bill.

People think that just because a ride isn't popular or listed on Utahmountainbiking.com that they don't exist. There are incredible adventurous epic backcountry rides out there that will be made illegal by the bill. STOP IT!

Just because you don't ride there doesn't mean that these areas aren't great rides and worth saving from the misinformed good intention and GREED of Save Our Canyons.

Save our backcountry biking. OPPOSE THE BILL.

[Shredgar]

Blah blah blah.

Stuff the hot air.

Lets see the maps before you jerk the knee.

With a twitch like that how do you get down the hill?

[brutah]

Hey messanger,

This is a new bill, it has been rewritten. The maps haven't been released nor has the literature. And from what I have heard and been told this new bill addresses those very concerns by expanding some wildernesses and also designating 10000 acres as "special management areas" to allow for continued use for mtn biking, heli skiing,etc

[Trackhead]

The maps haven't been released nor has the literature.

Maps here. I love the exception for the turds. Funny. I'm hoping to get an exception written for me and my bro's, so we can haul our wall tent in to Hogum via sled. Still working on it. Maybe if I pay one of our elected officials a few grand I can get a bill in Washington.
http://saveourcanyons.org/files/camp...WWPAmap_LG.pdf

[TheMessenger]

Doesn't change a thing in term of mountain bike access.
Lets look at what this bill does.
-Doesn't stop heli-skiing
-Doesn't stop snowbird expansion
-doesn't stop Alta expansion
-doesn't stop Flagstaff lift
-doesn't stop Grizzly Gulch lift
-doesn't stop SkiLink

What does it do then exactly?

It bans mountain biking in the areas I mentioned above (and more). That's the ONLY thing it does. It's total bullshit!
This thing is going to kill backcountry mountain bike access in the central Wasatch. pLEASE DO NOT SUPPORT THIS HORRIBLE BILL!

[brutah]

SOC's response to my inquiry about Mountain Biking

The changes had to do primarily with waterlines in Big Cottonwood. Nothing was added to the bill, only removed.
One thing we did do was expand the buffer on mountain bike trails to make sure they would be able to be rebuilt if something happened to them. The Wasatch Crest, Mill D North, Little Water, and Big Water all remain outside as introduced in 2010. We are hoping to get the official maps back from the forest Service soon. We also worked with the USFS to remove an area in upper millcreek for potential expansion of the trail system between Elbow fork and Big Water to get bikes off the narrow roadway.
I hope this addresses your concern, we will send a map around as soon as it is available. IMBA has again endorsed this Wilderness Proposal.

[brutah]

Super crest-grizzly to days
Days fork downhill
Silverfork
Pole line to Cardiff
Cardiff downhill
Greens basin
Mineral fork
White pine
Mt Aire area
Jacobs Ladder
And surrounds

Silver fork would not be affected as its private property nor would most of cardiff be affected. plus none of those areas you listed are really mountain bike trails, they're hiking trails that people illegally ride. they're mostly too steep to pedal up, i usually see people pushing their bikes up and then riding down (and that's very rare to begin with). most mountain bikers don't use those trails for mountain biking for that very reason; they're too steep for good mountain biking.

Doesn't change a thing in term of mountain bike access.
Lets look at what this bill does.
-Doesn't stop heli-skiing
-Doesn't stop snowbird expansion
-doesn't stop Alta expansion
-doesn't stop Flagstaff lift
-doesn't stop Grizzly Gulch lift
-doesn't stop SkiLink

What does it do then exactly?

It bans mountain biking in the areas I mentioned above (and more). That's the ONLY thing it does. It's total bullshit!
This thing is going to kill backcountry mountain bike access in the central Wasatch. pLEASE DO NOT SUPPORT THIS HORRIBLE BILL!

that map would designate the area where skilink is proposed as wilderness hence blocking the development of that land.
the government can't just go in and take private property from its owners to designate it as wilderness, which the areas where snowbird and alta have proposed expanding into are privately owned......

[Trackhead]

Silver fork would not be affected as its private property nor would most of cardiff be affected. plus none of those areas you listed are really mountain bike trails, they're hiking trails that people illegally ride. they're mostly too steep to pedal up, i usually see people pushing their bikes up and then riding down (and that's very rare to begin with). most mountain bikers don't use those trails for mountain biking for that very reason; they're too steep for good mountain biking.

Speak for yourself. I like riding Mineral, Days, and White Pine.

[TheMessenger]

plus none of those areas you listed are really mountain bike trails, they're hiking trails that people illegally ride. ...........


that map would designate the area where skilink is proposed as wilderness hence blocking the development of that land.
......

You are misinformed. Those are multi use trails LEGAL for mountainbikes. To imply that people use them illegally is spreading lies and misinformation. Just because a trail isn't listed on Utahmountianbiking.com doesn't mean that is is not a mountainbike trail, and that its is not a good mountainbike trail.

All of the trails I listed are LEGAL mounatinbike trails and they are under appreciated and they are AWESOME!
Just because you don't use, or it doesn't fit your idea of mountain biking, it doesn't mean other people want to ride them or might want to in the future.

The central Wasatch is one of the secret gems of backcountry style mountainbiking IN THE WORLD and this bill would KILL IT!

And...
The wilderness bill will not stop SkiLink. They can move it fifty feet to the side, or angle station outside the wilderness boundary. Stop spreading lies and misinformation.

[brutah]

^^^that silver fork trail is most definitely not a legal biking trail there, bub.

and you're saying we should not protect those lands so very FEW mountain bikers (the amount that actually use those trails is probably well under 100 people) won't be able to use them. boo hooo. those trails will be gone anyways if tha land gets developed. you're spreading misinformation. help protect land for the masses and future generations, not the FEW mountain bikers that actually use those trails.

50 feet to the side of proposed wilderness puts skilink into private property, you know the bear trap fork development........ and the dude that owns the house closest to where skilink is proposed to go is vehemently against the idea of putting a lift in there, that's why he's donated so much money to SOC recently........

[nbt]

I'm on the fence on this one:

1-It definitely looks like it restricts Mountain Biking (which is part of the definition of Wilderness Area), the language specifically allows Heli Skiing and "sustainable recreation infrastructure". Nowhere does it say mountain biking will be permitted. Backcountry skiing is always allowed in Wilderness. However if IMBA supports it, Messenger should write them and ask why they support it and post their response.

2-It does not look like it does anything to stop SkiLink. The wilderness area is North of Square Top. There is plenty of room for a Ski Link South of the boundary, most of the Canyons is South of the boundary and they own plenty of the land, hence PC being closed down.

3-I am a huge fan of more Wilderness Designations in Southern Utah, some of the most insane country down there, San Rafael, etc, way cooler than the parks has no protection at all and Shale Gas is absolutely going off down off.

So I guess more wilderness is good, but that Summit Crest Trail from PC Ridgeline down into Mill Creek is a very popular trail, that looks to be in the designation, will that be closed?

[TheMessenger]

IMBA doesn't know what it is doing, and has been captured by pro-wilderness interests; and that is around the country, not just here. They most definitely do not represent what is in the best interest of backcountry style mountain-biking in the central Wasatch.

People think that the Wasatch Crest trail is the only trail that need to be protected because it is the most popular. They are SO wrong. There miles of less known, less used gems that have not been as popular because they are more challenging or difficult to the average user, or have been kept secret. That does not mean that they are important trails that need to be protected from those who would shut them off like BRUTAH.

BRUTAH, stop supporting a bill that would restrict summer backcountry access to an important user group. If you were to ride a mountainbike, then maybe you would feel different.

The wilderness bill does nothing to stop development. In fact it give the GREEN LIGHT to snowbird to expand into what Save Our Canyons was originally founded to stop. Save Our Canyons has completely sold out here and you are just a sheep being led to slaughter here.

[brutah]

this is sweet



can't wait for an actual lift tower on the best mtn biike trail in utah

[schindlerpiste]

Is that the Crest? (Birsteshire [ph.]) Talisker is a douchenozzle of the highest order. I'm very interested to see the direction of Park City in the next 3-5 years. P.C. has the potential to be one of the great ski towns of the world. Problem is that P.C. is not run as a ski town. Dana, and his crew, along with the planning board, Talisker, and the other powers that be need to understand that the strength of the town it's not about a new reservoir in Round Valley, a new lift to Sillytude, or a new 5 star hotel at the top of Main Street. ...I just read that PCMR has placed a disclaimer on the 2012-13 season pass, which warns patrons of the possibility of there being no 2012-13 ski season at PCMR. ... Doesn't that make you just want to go out and spend big bucks at the Talisker kosher restaurant?

[leroy jenkins]

Silver fork would not be affected as its private property nor would most of cardiff be affected. plus none of those areas you listed are really mountain bike trails, they're hiking trails that people illegally ride. they're mostly too steep to pedal up, i usually see people pushing their bikes up and then riding down (and that's very rare to begin with). most mountain bikers don't use those trails for mountain biking for that very reason; they're too steep for good mountain biking.



that map would designate the area where skilink is proposed as wilderness hence blocking the development of that land.
the government can't just go in and take private property from its owners to designate it as wilderness, which the areas where snowbird and alta have proposed expanding into are privately owned......

I fucking love jacobs ladder, white pine is also a great grueler. Haven ridden many of the others but perhaps I should. None are illegal. If they already arent popular for biking, why do we need to ban bikes there, which is all this bill does?

[leroy jenkins]

this is sweet



can't wait for an actual lift tower on the best mtn biike trail in utah

Best in utah? Are you KIDDING? best in the SLC area yea, but if you think its the best in utah you need to head south. Hell, I'd say jacobs ladder to chost falls is every bit as good of a descent as any part of the crest of equal length.

[leroy jenkins]

IMBA doesn't know what it is doing, and has been captured by pro-wilderness interests; and that is around the country, not just here. They most definitely do not represent what is in the best interest of backcountry style mountain-biking in the central Wasatch.

People think that the Wasatch Crest trail is the only trail that need to be protected because it is the most popular. They are SO wrong. There miles of less known, less used gems that have not been as popular because they are more challenging or difficult to the average user, or have been kept secret. That does not mean that they are important trails that need to be protected from those who would shut them off like BRUTAH.

BRUTAH, stop supporting a bill that would restrict summer backcountry access to an important user group. If you were to ride a mountainbike, then maybe you would feel different.

The wilderness bill does nothing to stop development. In fact it give the GREEN LIGHT to snowbird to expand into what Save Our Canyons was originally founded to stop. Save Our Canyons has completely sold out here and you are just a sheep being led to slaughter here.

The IMBA has done more damage than good since now the pro wilderness eco nazis can say, see we have the support of the mnt bikers. BUllshit.

[brutah]

Is that the Crest? (Birsteshire [ph.]) Talisker is a douchenozzle of the highest order. I'm very interested to see the direction of Park City in the next 3-5 years. P.C. has the potential to be one of the great ski towns of the world. Problem is that P.C. is not run as a ski town. Dana, and his crew, along with the planning board, Talisker, and the other powers that be need to understand that the strength of the town it's not about a new reservoir in Round Valley, a new lift to Sillytude, or a new 5 star hotel at the top of Main Street. ...I just read that PCMR has placed a disclaimer on the 2012-13 season pass, which warns patrons of the possibility of there being no 2012-13 ski season at PCMR. ... Doesn't that make you just want to go out and spend big bucks at the Talisker kosher restaurant?

tis the crest! sweet signage and very friendly and welcoming! I'm sure they'll be allowing backcountry skiing when the put in their lift

i think its becoming more and more anonymous that TALISKER IS BAD FOR PC, REAL BAD.

and leroy, do you just love being the biggest douchebag on TGR?!? seriously, i never read anything of substance from you. If you can't see that more protection is needed in the cottonwoods then you're naive. I'm an avid mountain biker and I would be fine to lose a few areas to bike to gain more land protection for future generations. do you actually believe that if skilink is defeated that some other asshole in a few years won't be pushing for more land in the cottonwoods for development?

in all seriousness, I think major changes are coming to the wasatch in the next five years. and those wilderness areas in the lower canyons will be the only remaining oasis for those seeking powder a few days after a storm. personally, i'll take powder skiing over a nice tacky singletrack any day.

[itsnowjoke]

I love the sign! It's wrong however. It should say "Keep Out! Save Our Canyons wants to eliminate mountain biking from this area!" You see, Canyons / Talisker is extremely mountain biking friendly, and would never, ever close the Wasatch Crest Trail. There are two main exits from the Wasatch Crest when headed north. One exit is Millcreek Canyon, which is restricted to even / odd days for bikers. The other exit is through Canyons resort. Canyons resort hosts many excellent biking trails, including the mid-mountain, Ambush, Holly's, and Rob's to name a few. They host a NORBA events every year or so, and have a gondola and chair accessed terrain park. I feel sorry for the mis-informed individual who felt so passionate about his feelings that he went to the trouble to haul that sign up there. Oops! Skilink won't change a thing as well. The opponents would have you believe that there will be limited access to the terrain -in order to elicit an unfounded emotional response, like with the sign- but as with the mountain biking, it just won't be so. I'm hoping this sign gets a ton of press, and Canyons can repudiate it's absurdity. Free advertising is priceless.