Best 4 season tent

**XXX-er** · 07-18-2011, 12:32 PM

http://www.mec.ca/Products/product_l...34374302889754

mec makes some good tents I have the northwind which is a 3 person ,3-4 season the nunatuk is the more bomber lower profile/full pole sleeves

**strawjack** · 07-18-2011, 12:59 PM

back in the day i had a sierra designs tiros. i don't know if they make that anymore, but it was a pretty decent tent.

tough to beat an old VE25 though...tried and true. the new ones? who knows...most tnf products have certainly gone downhill imo.

**skimaxpower** · 07-18-2011, 11:10 PM

Originally Posted by strawjack

back in the day i had a sierra designs tiros.

I own a Tiros. It's super-bomber, but heavy as hell. 9+ pounds. If I used it more, I'd definitely trade up for a Hilleberg Nallo and cut the weight by about 50%.

**hutash** · 07-19-2011, 09:31 AM

The big question on 4 season tents, is just how will they be used. If you want fast and light then tents like the Nallo are great. If you are going to be based camping, and plan on spending time sitting out storms, the tents like the VE-25 are great. at 9+ lbs carrying the VE-25 gets old fast, but spend a lot of time in a tent waiting out weather or setting up a tent to leave for several days, and the geodesic design is fantastic. My tent always ended up being the party tent, as it was easy for four people to hang out play cards, roll joints, what ever. Plus the yellow fabric makes a couple days pinned down much more enjoyable. Dark colored tents get old and claustrophobic real quick. The down side of bright tents is it is harder to sleep during the day. They are also easier to find in a storm or late at night, but harder to hide from rangers when gorilla camping. Life if a series of trade offs.

**Nick_C_123** · 07-19-2011, 11:55 AM

Love my Bibler eldo. The BD silnylons are good too but not real 4-season tent. When it rains hard outside it rains in the tent - I know - a bit colder too. The bibler material is waterproof as hell and seems to breathe better than most.

**GeezerSteve** · 07-19-2011, 12:23 PM

What do you mean by "BD silnylons?" MegaLight and BetaLight? BD Lighthouse, First Light, etc. are Epic canopies, silnylon floor, not fit for 4-season use IME. OTOH, the MegaLight 'mid works great for most, though not all, winter camps.

Bibler fabric doesn't breath well enough for me -- big condensation problems -- but a nice single wall tent, albeit cramped. Stephenson offers much bigger footprint for the same weight and more stormworthiness too. Self-supporting is not worth the extra weight, relatively less stability and smaller footprint, IME.

**Nick_C_123** · 07-19-2011, 03:04 PM

Thinking specifically the lighthouse- that's what I had. Okay tent for when you didn't really need a tent. Trashed the zipper though and gave it with a lot of other gear to the homeless shelter. Somewhere in the four corners area is one techy homeless camp.

Haven't had too many condensation issue w/ my Bibler. Frost when really cold but not really any water in warmer temps/rain. It's more noticeable with two people in there, but I pretty much use it solo so it works good for just me in that respect. Definitely cramped with two but the small footprint is great. And I've found it to be pretty bomber in high winds/snow. Once it's fully anchored out its hard to budge, albeit noisy.

Maybe I'll try a stephenson when this one craps out.

**Soups** · 07-21-2011, 11:25 AM

If you want a tunnel/non-free standing tent I agree you can't beat Stephenson or Hilleberg tents.

If you want a free standing tent nothing beats the Bibler Fitzroy. Nothing. Insanely bomber, pretty low profile, light for its size, perfect size for two people and large enough for you. The other Bibler's (I-tent, eldo) would probably be too small for your liking. The Bombshelter, while sweet, is pretty large and overkill IMHO. Also, I've never had an issue with condensation. Sometimes the inside will get frosty but it was nothing that couldn't be dealt with.

I don't know why you would ever buy and lug around the TNF tents. Wayyy too heavy and pricey when you can get one for a little more $ and half the weight.

**SimB** · 08-02-2011, 03:07 PM

Planning on buying my first tent next season, don't see a reason to start a new thread so I'll just ask here. Hope you don't mind.

I've been looking at a tent mentioned above, MSR Dragontail. From what I've read in other places it works fine for winter camping but with quite a lot of condensation, is this the case with all single walls?

How does a single wall handle harsh conditions, say -15 to -20 Celsius?

**GeezerSteve** · 08-02-2011, 04:46 PM

Originally Posted by SimB

. . . but with quite a lot of condensation, is this the case with all single walls?

How does a single wall handle harsh conditions, say -15 to -20 Celsius?

All single wall tents will develop condensation in most cold dry conditions because the relative humidity inside the tent is higher than the outside and the walls are cooler than the air in the middle of the tent, hence the water vapor in the air condenses on the inner tent wall. In theory, Epic canopies (e.g., BD Lighthouse) or PTFE canopies (e.g., Bibler Tech) will accumulate less condensation than silnylon canopies (e.g., Dragontail), but in my experience there's not much difference, at least not hear in the PNW. Single wall tents are also not was warm as double wall tents in cold weather. Nothwithstanding these issues, I still choose a single wall tent (BD Mega Light [silnylon version of Mega Mid]) for around half of my cold weather camps. One nice thing about a floorless single wall tent (e.g., BD 'Mid) is that you can dry it out by cranking the cookstove for a few minutes.

Managing condensation is an art. I have PTFE (eVent) shells on 3 of my 4 sleeping bags, including my cold weather bag, which protects the down from getting fouled with water or water vapor. Some people use bivi bags. I also use a vapor barrier liner most nights in cold weather, which helps keep both the sleeping bag and the tent dry. But note that much, often most, condensation results from exhaling water vapor.

**hemas** · 08-03-2011, 12:52 AM

Originally Posted by Big Steve

One nice thing about a floorless single wall tent (e.g., BD 'Mid) is that you can dry it out by cranking the cookstove for a few minutes.

I do the same on my Outdoor Desings Summit (now Rab Summit Mountain Bivi) without any problems. Pretty much the same as and Bibler I-tent.

And on winter tours, where I'm skiing to BC I generally have a couple of grave lanterns/candles which I hang from the cealing for the night. I'm talkin' about those cheap plastic ones, not proper lanterns per se. Just drill two holes on the sides for the "hang-kit".

I seem to recall, you can get like 16h of burntime from one. So good enough for 3 nights. It creates enough heat to keep the tent completely condensation free... at least up to -20 C when solo and the door shut, with two people I've only been to -10 C.

As for the free-standing vs. tunnel tent. Age old debate. Both will work and have their pros and cons. Let's just say, that I would prefer a free standing geodete tent (ie. something like VE-25) in higher altitude where the wind directions might change quite rapidly. Also would prefer a free standing tent if camping on small islands (or rocks) while kayaking as it would be easier to set up. A tunnel tent would be the optimal choice for big glaciers/tundras or similar, where the wind direction doesn't change that often. Also I would prefer the lighter weight to space -ratio when simply hikin' in more sheltered areas. That said, I nowadays mostly just use a GoLite Shangri-La for non extreme conditions, since I don't own tunnel tent at teh moment.

**BFD** · 08-03-2011, 01:31 AM

VE 25 is actually only a one season tent. As for condensation firing up the stove will drive out the frost, watch for dripping.

**SimB** · 08-03-2011, 03:07 PM

Found a tent made by a swedish company yesterday, Acrtic alpine design, 3 WBT by http://www.northstar.se

Site is in swedish but weight and mesurements are clear even if you can't read swedish.

**hutash** · 08-03-2011, 05:38 PM

^^^That looks a lot like the Hilleberg tents.

**SimB** · 08-04-2011, 04:49 AM

yeah, it's pretty similar but a lot cheaper.

**skimaxpower** · 08-04-2011, 09:59 AM

^^ ...and heavier. With less attention to detail.

**kootenayskier** · 08-04-2011, 09:34 PM

I spent way to much time geeking out over all the options before buying a Hilleberg Nammatj tent for winter snow camping. It's a well thought out design, manufactured to the highest quality. That said, managing condensation is a learned technique. Despite it being a double walled design, and having an elaborate venting system, in cold snowy conditions condensation builds up constantly on the inside of the tent, and must be regularly wiped down with a "pack-towel" to maintain a dry space. If you're diligent it can be quite comfortable, certainly more so than my mega-mid, or single wall tents (such as the Bibler Eldorado) that I have experience with.

**skiwithcharlie** · 08-05-2011, 10:52 PM

Black Diamond Bibler Ahwahnee w vestibule is what you want: http://cgi.ebay.com/Black-Diamond-AH...item1e65a82ff6

**Moralkaka** · 08-06-2011, 02:07 AM

Originally Posted by skimaxpower

^^ ...and heavier. With less attention to detail.

Nallo 3 GT is the "role model" for Northstar WBT 3 and they both weigh 2,9 kg, so how is it any heavier?
Sure, Hilleberg is a luxurious and well made tent, but as previously stated twice as expensive.
I've slept in the WBT 2 and the Hilleberg equivalent and although the WBT feels a bit more flimsy it's a lot more bang for the buck..

**time2clmb** · 08-06-2011, 08:29 AM

Originally Posted by hutash

If you want fast and light then tents like the Nallo are great. If you are going to be based camping, and plan on spending time sitting out storms, the tents like the VE-25 are great. at 9+ lbs carrying the VE-25 gets old fast, but spend a lot of time in a tent waiting out weather or setting up a tent to leave for several days, and the geodesic design is fantastic.

The VE you sold me was fucking awesome and I had a few good trips with it. But yeah, splitting all of that tent between 2 people (mostly used for 2) was definately noticable in weight and bulk, but damned worth it for a base camp style tent IMO. In the end I was looking for something more maneuverable and lighter for traverse type trips so I sold it to recoup the cost and put that to a Nallo 3 GT. He was as stoked as I was to get such a smoking deal on it.

I have only used the Nallo once so far, and got the 3 person version to have more room for 2, although the one trip we did with it we had 3, and there was plenty of room as the vestibule is massive. We dug it out to be able to stand in it to change etc and it was complete with a gear shelf where you can cook if the weather is shit. The vestiuble is a huge advantage for sitting out storms IMO and you can build it to your needs when in snow.

Not too many photo's out there that give a good sense of scale, so here's a few.
2 huge loft winter sleeping bags plus a smaller one with a person sleeping in it to lookers left

Sentinel lounging in the vestibule

I was looking something I could use specifically in the winter, it had to be "winter" light for 2 people, and it had to be large for 2 people with an option to use with winter gear for 3 if need be. Also had to be quick to move with a roomy vestibule. The price was prohibitive, but I did find a killer deal online and had it in my hand in Canada for $600 after online coupons etc...and looking at the other options that were some what comparable, well, those were just as if not a bit more expensive so this just made sense.

**hutash** · 08-06-2011, 09:40 AM

^^^How did you find the storm worthiness? I always had a hard time pitching my Nallo well enough that i thought it would do well in a storm. I never used in in snow, but it required so many stakes that it seems like it would be a real pain to pitch in snow. That vestibule is freaking huge. The other nice thing is you can leave the inner tent at home and have a floorless tent if you so choose.

Glad you enjoyed a couple trips in the VE-25, I still think it is one of the most awesome tents ever made, and am glad to played it forward so some one can get more great use out of it.

**time2clmb** · 08-06-2011, 10:10 AM

Storm worthiness has yet to be seen first hand as the weather was pretty good on the one trip with it, altough a bit windy but not too bad. I had no issue pitching it drum tight on the snow same applies to the few times I have set it up in the yard on snowless ground.

I use 12 points to stake it down, and with all of the freestanding tents I have ever used I always stake them down regardless of weather. I camp mostly above treeline. I used about the same amount for pegging the VE, and around the same number for the other tents I have used except for my summer tent. I always seem to end up with vestibules that need to be pegged to make them useable anyways. Because I peg all tents out anways, the Nallo is WAY faster to set up than other tents I have used.

Peg one end, insert poles, pull tight and insert pegs on other end, tighten and it's up then it's a quick matter of pegging out the guy lines if you choose. You could use only 4 if you wanted but I don't think it would be as tight. If you look at the guy lines, there is a top and bottom one on each pole, and each has a tensioner. Instead of being seperate they are a closed loop and this allows draping that loop over a ski or pole and then just tightening the line. Very quick. To peg out any tent in snow I use stuff sacks full of snow buried dead man style if not using skis etc. I also tamp the site down and let it set before putting the tent up.

I've thought about trying it out as a floorless option...might try it next winter. You'd be able to get a massive comfy interior with a bit of digging.

**samthaman** · 08-06-2011, 09:19 PM

I was shopping tents too and, this is quite tangential, the Stephenson website sucks. How, in this day and age, can you expect to sell stuff over the internet w/o decent photos of the products and how they work?

**bodywhomper** · 08-06-2011, 09:29 PM

i'm pretty sure it's because stephenson is an intentionally small-ass company. discussions on sites like this probably result in more business then they can accommodate.