Should cyclists have to actually stop at a STOP sign?

[stfu&gbtw]

You can read the original paper here, if you prefer:
http://www.velomondial.net/velomondi...F/TOMLINSO.PDF

It's both sad and revealing to see you and others throwing mud at official government statistics because they don't agree with your desire to blame cyclists for their own deaths. You're going to throw around unsourced insults and innuendo in response to actual statistics, and then accuse ME of citing unreliable sources?

Fuck off. I have a dead friend, and several injured friends, and continued flip, counterfactual bullshit such as you and others are spouting is the reason they're dead.

Dude - save the fucking sob story. I've been hit by two cars myself while biking and have permanent injuries as a result. Once it was the drivers fault, once it was mine. In my experience, a lot of bikers act like douchebags on the road and most of the 'victims' in accidents I hear about remind me of chicks in mini-skirts claiming date-rape. Unfortunately, a lot of drivers act that way too and it makes for a dangerous situation - obviously especially for the bikers. But it is not a situation in which only one party is at fault.

[Elkhound Odin]

In my experience, a lot of bikers act like douchebags on the road and most of the 'victims' in accidents I hear about remind me of chicks in mini-skirts claiming date-rape.

We already have a thread about sluts on parade. stop cross mixing posts.

[Socialist]

Another right turn condition might be at a stop sign, where the car stopped ahead of the cyclist, and then proceeded to turn right. The cyclist rolls the stop light and gets pissed when he nearly hits the car. Obviously this would be a situation where the cyclist must stop. If no cars are around, roll that sign!

Kindof similar, kindof different.
I take the whole lane when I approach a stop sign. I had a driver a few weeks ago coming up from behind start honking at me and waving me to the side of the road. They proceeded to pull up to the stop sign adjacent to me in the oncoming traffic lane. Sorry buddy, didn't mean to hold you up for those insufferable seconds.

Most drivers are OK - but when commuting by bike you might come into contact with 100s of drivers in 10 km. In a car you move at the same speed - only interact with a handful of drivers.

If 0.1% of drivers are bad, and I pass/get passed by 100 cars commuting - then I am going to see a bad driver every week.

All drivers seem to have 1 anecdotal story about a bad cyclist; when cycling I see bad drivers all the time.

[hutash]

Just a reminder, if you go up against a car you will lose.

This just happened here, and is a friend of my daughter.

http://www.ktla.com/videobeta/?watch...b-39f7bb6cdce2

This kid was riding in a very wide bike lane, and this son of a bitch in the Hummer was drunk. The only good news in the story above is the bastard refused to surrender, so they cops sent a dog into the guys car. I wish I would have been there, I would have taken the cops for a nice leisurely cup of coffee while the dog was in the car with this guy.

VENTURA (KTLA) -- A suspect drunk driver is accused of hitting three bicyclists, killing one of them, and then just driving away.

Authorities have identified the suspect as 49-year-old Satnam Singh, who was driving a Hummer.

He was involved in three accidents along Telegraph Road Thursday night, but failed to stop in each case, officials said.

In the first, he struck two bicyclists -- a mother and her 13-year-old daughter, according to police. They suffered moderate injuries, including broken bones, police said.

The suspect continued westbound on Telegraph and hit a pickup truck stopped at a red light at Petit Avenue.

A family of three was inside the car. They sustained only minor injuries, police said.

Singh continued driving and struck a third bicyclist near Telegraph Road and Mara Avenue.

The victim, 20-year-old Nick Haverland, was killed.

Haverland was said to have been riding his bicycle to go take a final exam for college.

Witness Nancy Crawford tried to help Haverland but realized there was nothing she could do.

"I was in shock and I kept looking at the young man to see if he was breathing but he wasn't breathing," she said.

"The impact was so so hard that it had to have taken him instantly."

A witness started following the Hummer and called 911.

Police met the suspect as he arrived at his home in the 100 block of Kennedy Avenue.

Singh initially refused to get out of his vehicle, police said.

Officers opened a rear hatch and sent a dog inside.

They were finally able to pull Singh out of the car and take him into custody.

Singh was booked on felony drunk driving, hit and run and gross vehicular manslaughter while intoxicated, officials said.

Nick Haverland's family released a statement on Thursday, saying that he was "a loving, generous young man with a joyful smile and a giving spirit."

He was a full-time student at Ventura College, and was also taking a class at Moorpark College, his family said.

He had been accepted into the University of Hawaii's Ethnobotany program.

I ride this road all the time, and I am really pissed right now, and very choked up. The irony of it all was the kids were on their way to a final on religion.

[mtngirl79]

I don't know in your particular circumstance, but I have had this happen to me multiple times,'and has always been the cars fault. I have been riding along the right side of the road, a car passes me and cuts in front to make a right turn. Then they get pissed at me when I slammmy fist on the side of their car to let them know I was there. One if these days I am going to put a fist through a window. I am not saying that us what happened with you, but many drivers think they own the road in this situation, when in reality it is like making a right turn from the left lane.

This was at a stop light, and I was the first car, light changed to green the same time traffic cleared.. not sure where the bike came from because I did not pass it coming up to the stop light... he was going kind of fast, so I am not thinking he was ever stopped at the light with the cars...

It was kind of scary because he came out of no where, and I wasn't really expecting something rushing up on my right side like that.

Either way, I am more aware of that now... it happens frequently, though, where a bike passes me on the right in town, going way faster than the speed limit, and it always freaks me out a little..

[Toadman]

It's all about eye contact with drivers. I still won't go out of turn through an intersection, but I'll feel a helluva lot better about riding through if I know the other person sees me.

I used to think that eye "contact" was a pretty safe bet until an elderly gentleman in a Caddy pulled right out in front of me as I was coming off a hill at 35 MPH. Imagine my surprise. I guess he eventually saw the whites of my eyes, as they bulged out of my head from the anticipated impact with the driver side door. He came to an abrupt stop, and my lackluster skill handling a bike at high speed was just enough to save me from T-boning him and attempting a human catupult record. If I don't see some kind of hand motion indicating that they see me, I hit the brakes and or yell.

Since that particualr incident several years ago, I have had this eye contact problem numerous times. I would swear on Rontele's life, that they are looking right at me but they are not seeing me.

My biggest pet peeve, however, is the cars that speed up to pass a cyclist to make a right hand turn in front of you but at the last second hit the brakes as they make their turn. I have hit the deck in this scenario, and it just plain pisses me off when drivers do this.

[dumpy]

I've noticed a lot of these trends, which really all fall under motorists don't see us, aren't paying attention or misjudge where we are riding. Then I started riding road/around town at night with a Magicshine, a tail light and one of those princeton tec clip on blinkers on my helmet strap.

Holy fuck, what a difference. When you've got a brighter headlight than most cars, they pay attention and give you room. It's pretty cool.

Not sure how to accomplish this same amount of recognition during the day.

[tgray]

there's a couple of cyclists in anchorage [well, one cyclist anyway] who are wishing they had stopped for a light in Anchorage on wednesday , both were hit by a car and were taken to ER, 1 died. it seems as if having different rules for vehicles using the same roadway would be a bad idea.

[AdironRider]

The facts say:
BULLSHIT!

"While motorists often accuse cyclists of being the cause of bike-car accidents, a Toronto analysis of 2572 police collision reports (Table 1) demonstrates that this is actually not the case. The most common type of crash in this study involved a motorist entering an intersection controlled by a stop sign or red light, and either failing to stop properly, or proceeding before it was safe to do so. The second most common crash type involved a motorist overtaking unsafely. The third most common type of crash is a motorist opening a door onto an oncoming cyclist.

In fact, cyclists are the cause of less than 10% of bike-car accidents in this study (1)."
http://www.sharetheroad.ca/what-are-...afety--p128277

"The most common bike-car collision is a driver failing to yield at a stop sign." (This is also true with the previous study)
http://www.bicyclinglife.com/Library/TaleOfThree.htm



Then there is the awkward fact that bicycle accidents have NOT INCREASED in Idaho as a result of the Idaho stop law. Yet this doesn't stop many of you from spouting off about how unsafe it is and how terrible an idea it is.

It's both fascinating and disquieting to see the irrational hatred for cyclists -- including self-hatred -- that causes people to simply make shit up in order to justify their anti-bicycle attitudes.

You miss the part where Ive already admitted I got clocked on a bike by an f150. That shit was real, and its certainly changed my perspective. I got clocked by a lady on a cell phone blowing a stop sign doing 40. I landed like 50 feet away. You know what I thought about first thing in the air?

"FUCK! I should have seen this coming!!!!"

I would argue that those bicyclists should be watching that car still approaching and use the awesome 10-15 foot stopping distance ability to prevent the collision in the first place. If they have 30 seconds to asses an intersection before getting to it, they have no excuse to not have seen it coming. I learned this lesson the hard way.

[jfost]

... has always been the cars fault. I have been riding along the right side of the road, a car passes me and cuts in front to make a right turn. Then they get pissed at me when I slammmy fist on the side of their car to let them know I was there. One if these days I am going to put a fist through a window. I am not saying that us what happened with you, but many drivers think they own the road in this situation, when in reality it is like making a right turn from the left lane.

ummmm, I disagree. You are likely travelling along at sub 20mph in a 25 or even 30, 35 zone - so the car doesn't feel like "sharing the road" with your slow ass. Why don't you do what you would normally do in a car, since we are sharing the road and all... as the car moves over to turn right, you move left and pass safely around behind. Or you can continue your policy of not only avoiding interaction, but escalating it with a slammy fist. I dunno, maybe stuff like that is why people have an "irrational hatred" of cyclists.

[Rasputin]

I got a ticket recently for rolling through a stop sign, the only vehicle within two blocks of me turned out to be a cop (bummer). During the part of the year I commute on my bike, I routinely roll through stop signs, and will do so with speed unchecked, if I see no traffic.

There is no doubt that everyone stopping at stop signs is the safest way of sharing intersections. The problem that this mitigates, is that of those drivers, and cyclists, who value their convenience over the potential conflicts that can arise when there is traffic.

Lawmakers don't decide which laws are followed, nor which laws are enforced, people do, and people are consistently inconsistent. Written law is usually different than adherence to it, both by those living under law, and those enforcing it.

edit: I failed to mention that I was driving when I got my ticket.

[stfu&gbtw]

I don't know in your particular circumstance, but I have had this happen to me multiple times,'and has always been the cars fault. I have been riding along the right side of the road, a car passes me and cuts in front to make a right turn. Then they get pissed at me when I slammmy fist on the side of their car to let them know I was there. One if these days I am going to put a fist through a window. I am not saying that us what happened with you, but many drivers think they own the road in this situation, when in reality it is like making a right turn from the left lane.

ummmm, I disagree. You are likely travelling along at sub 20mph in a 25 or even 30, 35 zone - so the car doesn't feel like "sharing the road" with your slow ass. Why don't you do what you would normally do in a car, since we are sharing the road and all... as the car moves over to turn right, you move left and pass safely around behind. Or you can continue your policy of not only avoiding interaction, but escalating it with a slammy fist. I dunno, maybe stuff like that is why people have an "irrational hatred" of cyclists.

Wouldn't it make sense that if a bicycle is a vehicle, just like a car, and you're travelling more slowly than other vehicles, you keep to the right and let them pass? and if that car that just passed you wants to make a right turn, it's your responsibility to not hit them when they slow down? That car didn't cut anyone off - it passed you and turned in front of you. Happens to us drivers all the time, but instead of simply driving around like a normal human being, Hutash chooses to physically vent his anger on another person's property like a goddamned two year old.

This is why people hate bicyclists - they want to be treated like "adults in vehicles" about 25% of the time, and like "children on toys" the rest of the time. My favorite is how pissy they get when they're riding side-by-side on a narrow road and you have to buzz the inside guy when you pass... It's like, really dude? You want to cop an attitude about it - fucking move over a little and help yourself! But if you just want to shake your little fist and whine about it, maybe you ought to get flattened. We don't need your kind reproducing.

[Socialist]

The mayor of Toronto.

[skiballs]

KFC loves it when you bring in dead crackers

So, if I run over a redneck cyclist and drag him to KFC, I get a free bucket of chicken?

[jfost]

well, I certainly don't agree with the mayor of Toronto... sheesh, that guy is a tool! Plus, from the looks of things he ought to give bike riding a try, or at least lay off the poutine.

[hutash]

ummmm, I disagree. You are likely travelling along at sub 20mph in a 25 or even 30, 35 zone - so the car doesn't feel like "sharing the road" with your slow ass. Why don't you do what you would normally do in a car, since we are sharing the road and all... as the car moves over to turn right, you move left and pass safely around behind. Or you can continue your policy of not only avoiding interaction, but escalating it with a slammy fist. I dunno, maybe stuff like that is why people have an "irrational hatred" of cyclists.

Wouldn't it make sense that if a bicycle is a vehicle, just like a car, and you're travelling more slowly than other vehicles, you keep to the right and let them pass? and if that car that just passed you wants to make a right turn, it's your responsibility to not hit them when they slow down? That car didn't cut anyone off - it passed you and turned in front of you. Happens to us drivers all the time, but instead of simply driving around like a normal human being, Hutash chooses to physically vent his anger on another person's property like a goddamned two year old.

This is why people hate bicyclists - they want to be treated like "adults in vehicles" about 25% of the time, and like "children on toys" the rest of the time. My favorite is how pissy they get when they're riding side-by-side on a narrow road and you have to buzz the inside guy when you pass... It's like, really dude? You want to cop an attitude about it - fucking move over a little and help yourself! But if you just want to shake your little fist and whine about it, maybe you ought to get flattened. We don't need your kind reproducing.

Notice the words "cuts in front of me", they are rather important. If I said I intentionally ride up next to somebody making a safe right turn and put my fist through their window, I would agree with both of you. I am talking about the clown that cuts in front of you forcing to to brake violently, make a hard right turn, or get creamed by the car.

If a car is well a head of me making a right turn, then yes, I will pull out around the left side, but it is still the cars responsibility to make a safe right turn, not mine. (I do value my life, so even if I have the right of way, I will yield it to a 5,000 Hummer.)

As to the point of cyclists riding side by side, while I agree it is not the smarts thing to do, it is still the cars responsibility to pass safely. Even if that means slowing down until it is safe to make the pass. Cars may not like it, but the cyclist has as much right to the traffic lane as the car does. If somebody buzzes me, and I catch them at a light I will put my fist through there window are and ring their scrawny. I don't car whether I am riding alone, side by side or in a pack of 20, buzzing cyclist is extremely dangerous, and should not be tolerated at any time.

edit to add: I just watched the Toronto video, what a fat fucking moran, I want to move to Toronto just vote him out of office, but then realize he will likely die of heart disease before I can.

[stfu&gbtw]

Notice the words "cuts in front of me", they are rather important. If I said I intentionally ride up next to somebody making a safe right turn and put my fist through their window, I would agree with both of you. I am talking about the clown that cuts in front of you forcing to to brake violently, make a hard right turn, or get creamed by the car.

If a car is well a head of me making a right turn, then yes, I will pull out around the left side, but it is still the cars responsibility to make a safe right turn, not mine. (I do value my life, so even if I have the right of way, I will yield it to a 5,000 Hummer.)

As to the point of cyclists riding side by side, while I agree it is not the smarts thing to do, it is still the cars responsibility to pass safely. Even if that means slowing down until it is safe to make the pass. Cars may not like it, but the cyclist has as much right to the traffic lane as the car does. If somebody buzzes me, and I catch them at a light I will put my fist through there window are and ring their scrawny. I don't car whether I am riding alone, side by side or in a pack of 20, buzzing cyclist is extremely dangerous, and should not be tolerated at any time.

edit to add: I just watched the Toronto video, what a fat fucking moran, I want to move to Toronto just vote him out of office, but then realize he will likely die of heart disease before I can.

As a matter of fact, in most places riding side-by-side is illegal where car traffic is impeded on a public roadway. Bicyclists riding side by side where cars must pass are violating the law and do not have any rights. That the inside rider doesn't get run over might be more aptly considered a favor granted by the driver.

[Piggity]

There was a cyclist a few years back that was riding in the middle of the 101 (PCH for those out of state) in downtown Del Mar. Super quiet town, big bike lane that I guess he didn't like to ride in, but whatever, no biggie since it was like 6:30am or so and no cars around.

He decided he wanted to ride in the middle of both lanes of the PCH, never mind picking 1 lane or better yet the bike lane.

I came up behind him slowly and thought he didn't hear my truck, so I gave 1 quick bump of the horn to let him know I was there and I'd be on my way once he moved over into the other car lane (did not lay on the horn what so ever).

He moves over slightly and decides he wants to cuss me out for driving on the 101. He's been riding the PCH for 30+ years, blah blah blah blah. I've never heard such neurotic blabber about how I wasn't supposed to drive on the 101 while he was there. He was lucky I was on a surf check that day and didn't want to pull over to talk it out with him.

I've never seen anyone on the road think they owned the road more than this guy, doesn't matter if we are talking bikes, cars, trucks, motorcycles or whatever - This guy took the cake.

That being said, it does suck to be a biker on the road here in SoCal. It's a dangerous adventure each and everytime, so I try to be as courteous as possible.

[powdork]

what if the cyclist is in the middle of getting the worlds first mobile x-ray?
which one of you dentists is driving the caddy?

[hutash]

As a matter of fact, in most places riding side-by-side is illegal where car traffic is impeded on a public roadway. Bicyclists riding side by side where cars must pass are violating the law and do not have any rights. That the inside rider doesn't get run over might be more aptly considered a favor granted by the driver.

Not exactly correct, at least in California. I don't know about other states. Bicycles are required to stay to the ride side of the road except when passing, which is when I am often side by side with another rider. I rarely ride next to someone unless it is a totally empty road. It is still the drivers responsibility to pass safely, nor, even if you are violating the law do you not have any rights. Even if I am wrong and you buzz me, I am going to kick your ass. You want to honk and flip me off, fine, but you put my life or another cyclists life in danger because of your shitty attitude there is going to be a problem. "You" being used generically here.

I will admit a lot of cyclists do some pretty stupid things, as PiggtyPow pointed out, but in my many years of cycling I have gone to great lengths not to be an asshole, but I have had more then a few run ins with drivers that are really, really big assholes.

[stfu&gbtw]

Not exactly correct, at least in California. I don't know about other states. Bicycles are required to stay to the ride side of the road except when passing, which is when I am often side by side with another rider. I rarely ride next to someone unless it is a totally empty road. It is still the drivers responsibility to pass safely, nor, even if you are violating the law do you not have any rights. Even if I am wrong and you buzz me, I am going to kick your ass. You want to honk and flip me off, fine, but you put my life or another cyclists life in danger because of your shitty attitude there is going to be a problem. "You" being used generically here.

I will admit a lot of cyclists do some pretty stupid things, as PiggtyPow pointed out, but in my many years of cycling I have gone to great lengths not to be an asshole, but I have had more then a few run ins with drivers that are really, really big assholes.

Meanwhile, you agree it is their consitutional right to do so.

[hutash]

Some take their constitutional rights to the extreme and try to see just how big of an asshole they can really be.

Unfortunately many exceed even their wildest dreams.

[stfu&gbtw]

Some take their constitutional rights to the extreme and try to see just how big of an asshole they can really be.

Unfortunately many exceed even their wildest dreams.

Some even take up bicycling...

[ilikecandy]

Even if I am wrong and you buzz me, I am going to kick your ass. You want to honk and flip me off, fine, but you put my life or another cyclists life in danger because of your shitty attitude there is going to be a problem.

its not them putting your life in danger in that case. its you

[plugboots]

I may be prejudiced, but I just can never relate to fat fucktards like Rob Ford, no matter what they are talking about.