Review: Binding Freedom Inserts - The Swiss Cheese Experiment

[SgtSkidmark]

Excellent info, fellas. Thank you. That was what I figured, but since it was never explicitly covered, I felt it good to ask. Sort of a, "No news is good news," type scenario.

To auvgeek, here's my thought my process and how I arrived at the inserts - all while not cunting up Tech Talk with another JONG-tastic October themed thread of, "What should I do" ...

In a massive gear overhaul this year, I've decided to make the investment backcountry gear. As such, my initial thought was to mount up some Dukes to my new skis (Bibbys, most likely). That would satiate all of my lift-served needs and give me and slackcountry functionality I needed. Second to that, my though was to mount up some dynafits to a dedicated backcountry ski. But ...

In reading what Mags were doing with Bibbys and the new trending of focusing on the 'down' of backcountry skiing and in talking with a buddy, he suggested the inserts. Then, I would be able to run pure alpine bindings at substantial cost savings over Dukes and then swap in the Dynafits for days dedicated solely to earning turns. My guess is that I'd be doing 70/30 alpine/touring.

While I did consider the plates, (which look pretty awesome, BTW,) I tend to keep skis until end-of-life and I'm not a binding whore. I run what works and go from there. I also didn't want to run Dukes on a plate for the reason mentioned; stack height. That led me back to the inserts.

The last issue I'm grappling with is lift-served slackcountry. Mainly, I thought of skiing out of the gates at Jackson and the ensuing trip back. It'd be nice to get farther out or be able to get back quicker. The Dukes would do that nicely. But then I'm back to either the plates or running Dukes on a ski with no other binding options. Plus, the additional costs of Dukes.

Did I sufficiently talk myself in circles? Clear as mud? Good.

I'm certainly willing to listen to opinions, thoughts and waves of unrelenting criticism.

It's great if you don't have binding hole conflicts. Get some templates and figure out if you need a plate or not. The reason the plates exist is to put holes closer together without increasing the risk of pull-out. Inserts are a bigger diameter than screws, so do your math several times before you order anything.

[Bobcat Sig]

I like inserts (plan to do all my skis), but I wouldn't go that far. Why are you discounting the Sollyfit plate? Compared to the plate: inserts cheaper, but harder to install; they eliminate stack height, but that's generally not a problem unless you're running Dukes. On the downside, inserts put far more holes in the ski (a concern if you plan on reselling). All of this has been mentioned, I'm just pointing it out again.

I agree that inserts are great, and they might be the best product for you and me, I just don't think they're the solution for everyone.

It's great if you don't have binding hole conflicts. Get some templates and figure out if you need a plate or not. The reason the plates exist is to put holes closer together without increasing the risk of pull-out. Inserts are a bigger diameter than screws, so do your math several times before you order anything.

Good point. I forgot to mention that. Thus far, I have no hole conflicts that I've mapped out using the paper templates. All seem to have sufficient and the necessary 1cm+ holes spacing.

[Ivan Oder]

Bump.

I'm Duke user who actually tries to tour on them and I hate them.

I'm getting new skis and I want FKS + Plum and a boot with swappable DIN/Tech soles that'll do both and not suck too much at either. (Cochise?)

I did this experiment on a block of wood and got 1.3 to 1.4 cm spacing.

What glue/epoxy/special things are you using to secure the inserts that are so close?

[grenalds]

glue/epoxy/special things?

I've mounted every insert we've done the same way, whether it has tight spacing or not. There are plenty of good tutorials for insert installation on this site (search?). The basics are using a good 24hr+ epoxy and a nicely tapped vertical hole. Good luck!

[Bobcat Sig]

I'm getting new skis and I want FKS + Plum and a boot with swappable DIN/Tech soles that'll do both and not suck too much at either. (Cochise?)

Absolutely ... unless you're a weight weenie. In fact, the Cochise weighs less than several of the more burly AT boots currently on the market. Check the reviews by Blister Gear and Wild Snow. Both excellent and explain this in depth. To put it another way, the Cochise is for those of us who ski for the down, but still need an acceptable way to get into the slack/side/backcountry.

[Ivan Oder]

I tried on the Cochise's little bro, the Bushwackers and they fit nicely and I liked
the flex so I bought em size 320mm and got tech soles for them too.

I printed out some templates for FKS and the DynaFit Radical and set them for 320mm.

The Radical toe pattern has more space between its front holes than the usual Dynafit pattern
which means I can get 2cm insert clearance if I offset the mounts 1cm from each other.

I may do this, one at -5mm and the other at -15mm.

[auvgeek]

To auvgeek, here's my thought my process

[...]

In reading what Mags were doing with Bibbys and the new trending of focusing on the 'down' of backcountry skiing and in talking with a buddy, he suggested the inserts. Then, I would be able to run pure alpine bindings at substantial cost savings over Dukes and then swap in the Dynafits for days dedicated solely to earning turns. My guess is that I'd be doing 70/30 alpine/touring.

While I did consider the plates, (which look pretty awesome, BTW,) I tend to keep skis until end-of-life and I'm not a binding whore. I run what works and go from there. I also didn't want to run Dukes on a plate for the reason mentioned; stack height. That led me back to the inserts.

Sorry I forgot about this thread. I'm confused - you're running Dukes or not? If you're not a "binding whore," aren't running Dukes, and are drilling new skis, it seems like the Sollyfit plate would be perfect.

There's only three reasons I'd choose inserts over the Sollyfit plate (if I wanted an alpine binder and a tech binder, not a Duke):

1) My skis were already drilled. Then it makes more sense to put inserts in the holes and drill new ones for the other binding.
2) I wanted to run something an alpine binder other than Salomon, e.g. FKS/Pivot.
3) I was familiar with shop tools and was mounting the same pair of binders on multiple skis, i.e., I didn't want to spend the $$$ on a bunch of $120 plates).

If you're fine with Sally binders (STH 16 or the like) and your skis are new, I see no real reason to use inserts instead of the plate. But maybe that's just me. I'm sure others in the know (jondrums, etc) can comment on this better than I can.

[Ivan Oder]

Excellent info, fellas. Thank you. That was what I figured, but since it was never explicitly covered, I felt it good to ask. Sort of a, "No news is good news," type scenario.

To auvgeek, here's my thought my process and how I arrived at the inserts - all while not cunting up Tech Talk with another JONG-tastic October themed thread of, "What should I do" ...

In a massive gear overhaul this year, I've decided to make the investment backcountry gear. As such, my initial thought was to mount up some Dukes to my new skis (Bibbys, most likely). That would satiate all of my lift-served needs and give me and slackcountry functionality I needed. Second to that, my though was to mount up some dynafits to a dedicated backcountry ski. But ...

In reading what Mags were doing with Bibbys and the new trending of focusing on the 'down' of backcountry skiing and in talking with a buddy, he suggested the inserts. Then, I would be able to run pure alpine bindings at substantial cost savings over Dukes and then swap in the Dynafits for days dedicated solely to earning turns. My guess is that I'd be doing 70/30 alpine/touring.

While I did consider the plates, (which look pretty awesome, BTW,) I tend to keep skis until end-of-life and I'm not a binding whore. I run what works and go from there. I also didn't want to run Dukes on a plate for the reason mentioned; stack height. That led me back to the inserts.

The last issue I'm grappling with is lift-served slackcountry. Mainly, I thought of skiing out of the gates at Jackson and the ensuing trip back. It'd be nice to get farther out or be able to get back quicker. The Dukes would do that nicely. But then I'm back to either the plates or running Dukes on a ski with no other binding options. Plus, the additional costs of Dukes.

Did I sufficiently talk myself in circles? Clear as mud? Good.

I'm certainly willing to listen to opinions, thoughts and waves of unrelenting criticism.

I'm sort of in the same boat. I own Dukes and they are meh, the more you use them for 'touring' the more you will hate them.

I am currently on the fence on whether or not to mount/install inserts for my Dukes on my new skis.

I might try to put an FKS binding into an MFD touring adapter on inserts, then add more inserts for DynaFit/Plum/DF Radical if there aren't any hole conflicts.

I want the ability to skin on days when I didn't plan on skinning, and the ability tour with DynaFit goodness when I did.

That's sort of what the DynaDuke plate is for, but I think it can be done better with the new MFD system.

ON THE OTHERHAND, DynaFit bindings don't suck as much as they used to for the 'down', Plum has a great line of tech bindings if you don't mind no brakes, and the Radical is promising.

[JaPan]

I'm just about to do the same FKS and Dynafit Radical mount on a pair of JJs and TSTs... Any long term issues with that pair of DPS you did last spring? Did you mount using the same BSL? 68 is a lot of holes to drill...
Other option MFD + FKS and Dynafit... Thoughts? Then I'd have a really burly touring option and a real touring option w/ the Radicals.

[grenalds]

No long term issues. They haven't snapped in half.

If you read the first post, I slid the FKS back slightly (2mm). I haven't looked at radical/FKS combo so YMMV.

Bindings are a pretty personal preference, so I don't know what to tell you for the MFD. I don't see much of a point if you can swap a touring binding? Seems like spending money on inserts and MFD you're halfway to just buying a second pair of skis...

[JaPan]

I kinda came to the same conclusion... I hadn't really considered doing inserts, but I have this pair of Armada TSTs and a pair of JJs. Was kinda bummed to dedicate the TSTs to solely Dynafit use and at the same time the JJ's are so much more fun in the deep stuff. Found out about the inserts and bought Quiver Killers w/o realizing that apparently everyone on this forum seems to love the bindingfreedom inserts and guy more... Either way I'm going to be installing a ton of inserts in the next few weeks. Still not feeling quite right about the # of big holes I'm about to put in these brand new boards.

I have a drill press, punch, access to the best epoxies, tap guides, I should be good to go.

[dark_star]

This is a great thread. Planning on setting up a 4-hole tele mount system with BF inserts for switching between Bomber Bishops as well as axls and BD01s with swap plates. Maybe DynaFits too when my budget allows. Will be mounting on Black Diamond Crossbows and K2 Coombacks. Have all the tools short of a drill press. The 5/16 plastic/wood guide idea is particularly cool.

[jondrums]

JaPan, sounds like you should be good to go. Lots of people are installing multiple binding patterns of inserts in their skis with great results. If you epoxy the inserts in well, they'll barely weaken the skis, if at all.

[StopMakingSense]

Correct me if I'm wrong but here's what I intend on doing...

I'm going to grab some Renegades, brand new, that I want to be mounted for both Plums and 916's ... I want to put inserts in the skis as I don't want to put plates on them (Am I crazy for thinking this?) ... I'm not proficient at mounting my own bindings and would need a shop to put these inserts in ... two options can then happen

1. The shop mounts for both the 916's and Plum's then installs the inserts for me so I can unscrew both the bindings as I please (can I find a shop that has all the tools do this and will install the inserts that close?)
2. The shop mounts for both the 916's and Plum's then I install the inserts if I buy all the tools from jondrums' website (as seen in the video from the previous post)

Thanks for reading, this whole binding freedom stuff is new to me

[roverdoc]

Sollyfit is your friend.... 2x the opportunity for the shop to f$@# you and for you to be unhappy with the result...and we have to read another thread asking if the shop owes you new boards...Better to invest in the plates, mount yourself...marginal stack height or have a local mount them up for you...beer goes along way.

Correct me if I'm wrong but here's what I intend on doing...

I'm going to grab some Renegades, brand new, that I want to be mounted for both Plums and 916's ... I want to put inserts in the skis as I don't want to put plates on them (Am I crazy for thinking this?) ... I'm not proficient at mounting my own bindings and would need a shop to put these inserts in ... two options can then happen

1. The shop mounts for both the 916's and Plum's then installs the inserts for me so I can unscrew both the bindings as I please (can I find a shop that has all the tools do this and will install the inserts that close?)
2. The shop mounts for both the 916's and Plum's then I install the inserts if I buy all the tools from jondrums' website (as seen in the video from the previous post)

Thanks for reading, this whole binding freedom stuff is new to me

[StopMakingSense]

Sollyfit is your friend.... 2x the opportunity for the shop to f$@# you and for you to be unhappy with the result...and we have to read another thread asking if the shop owes you new boards...Better to invest in the plates, mount yourself...marginal stack height or have a local mount them up for you...beer goes along way.

I trust my shop/know the people ... if they can just drill the holes for me I feel comfortable putting in some Quiver Killers ... $120 a plate for 2x skis is a little too much ($240!)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYUaW-MZ9QY - Seems simple enough?

[toast2266]

I trust my shop/know the people ... if they can just drill the holes for me I feel comfortable putting in some Quiver Killers ... $120 a plate for 2x skis is a little too much ($240!)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYUaW-MZ9QY - Seems simple enough?

Are you doing 2 pairs of skis or just one? $120 gets you plates for 1 pair of skis.

Inserts for 1 pair of skis w/ two binding will probably cost you ~$45 for the inserts themselves, plus a bunch of money to the shop to drill the holes, plus tools for you to do the inserts (or additional money to the shop for them to mess with the inserts). By that time, you're not far off the $120 mark (if not above it). The plates are bomber-er, easier to mount, give you a nice wide footprint, and probably hold up to frequent binding changes better. The only real disadvantage is the stack height, which is fairly minimal. That math doesn't really change if you're doing a 2nd pair of skis. My vote: plates.

[auvgeek]

^^ This. If I weren't doing a bunch of skis and was going to use Sally binders, I'd go Sollyfit all the way. The cost of inserts + tools + shop mounting them = Sollyfit Plate.

[StopMakingSense]

Doing two pairs of skis + 1 for my friend ... so 3 in total

[auvgeek]

2. The shop mounts for both the 916's and Plum's then I install the inserts if I buy all the tools from jondrums' website (as seen in the video from the previous post)

Then this would be my preference. I was able to figure out how to install the inserts on my previously mounted skis no problem.

I don't have any experience mounting my own binders either, but I think it's time to learn. I have quite a few unmounted skis, so I plan on practicing on a 2x4 a few times and then doing it myself. The cost to have 5 pairs of skis (not all mine) mounted 2x each (at ~$30/mount) is almost a new pair of skis. I'd rather learn how and buy yet another pair of sticks!

[grenalds]

I don't see why you wouldn't use a plate. Worried about stack height maybe? Duke + plate can be a bit much, but Sally seems reasonable. You probably won't save much money unless you have someone else do everything who has a stocked shop.

Also, two sets of inserts lowers resale value, 8 holes from a plate won't.

Lastly, if you're using Plums, you better nail the mount. Since they're all metal you don't have any wiggle room like a plastic dynafit. I really mean that, if you want plum inserts you can't be more then a mm off without drilling out the binding or something similar. You have to be more precise than just mounting into the ski. Many shops with well worn jigs can be pretty sloppy.

Jon makes a great product with the plate and he's a good guy. It's a safe bet.

[Ivan Oder]

Most shops aren't used to dealing with inserts. They'll probably fuck it up and try to hide it.

Installing 32+ of them is a bitch, and even those of us who know what we're doing sometimes get one or two that could be potential spinners and pray to god they're okay after the epoxy cures.

If you're doing two sets of inserts that's rolling the dice with your shop 32 times. With a plate there's no fucking up. Template, wood screws, glue, done.

Edit: If you can't wood screw mount bindings the way the shop does, then you probably shouldn't be trying to DIY with inserts.

[Ivan Oder]

Lastly, if you're using Plums, you better nail the mount. Since they're all metal you don't have any wiggle room like a plastic dynafit. I really mean that, if you want plum inserts you can't be more then a mm off without drilling out the binding or something similar. You have to be more precise than just mounting into the ski. Many shops with well worn jigs can be pretty sloppy.

Jon makes a great product with the plate and he's a good guy. It's a safe bet.

I'm getting closer to doing what I just said not to do and putting some Radical FT's next to my FKS insert mount at about -1cm, with the front Dynafit holes exactly between the FKS holes.

But, never mounted Dynafits before. Do you have to loosely mount the toe first, then click boot in and adjust the whole shebang so that the heel lands centered? (And pray that both of your boots are symmetrical enough?)

[jondrums]

The plates are a no-brainer. There is a little bit of an art to installing inserts well - but I'm sure you can do it if you want to put in the time practicing.

If you're doing inserts with salomon and plums, you're going to want to mount the plums a few mm back on the toes, and a few extra mm back on the heels in order to get the clearance. With sollyfit plates, you won't have to worry about it.

Here's the economics with three pairs of skis:
sollyfits $360 + $15-30 of tools
inserts $125 + $40-80 of tools (don't know the going shop rate)

[TheDon]

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