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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by grenalds View Post
    Quick update:

    We made this in the shop. It kicks ass. Scrap piece of aluminum. We found the hard plastics got sloppy after a number of taps. This one is $$$. You can see we drilled a dynafit pattern on the aluminum, but have only tapped one hole, since it's a PITA. I think after we tap all 9 holes it's going to be fastest solution.



    We did three more sets of quiver killers last night. We're getting pretty fast. The only step in the process that I still get frustrated is using a fastener to thread in the insert. Even with conservative epoxy use it can be difficult to release the insert at the bottom after ~6 holes. Any ideas?
    I have been using a cheap drill guide like this to drill initial holes and to tap. It's kind of fiddly but works perffectly once you figure it out. You also have to have a drill that can drill super duper slow while tapping.


  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by harpo-the-skier View Post
    jong question: for a standard binding mount screw, not an insert, you want 1cm center to center seperation? I am mounting a sollyfit on a ski previously mounted with a Dynaduke.
    I've always heard 1cm in the past. Real problems come when you starting making a string of holes running width-wise across the ski.

    @Undies, you're bringing a gun to a knife-fight my friend, but better than the other way around I suppose.

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by grenalds View Post

    @Undies, you're bringing a gun to a knife-fight my friend, but better than the other way around I suppose.
    Meh. You can get them for about $25 from almost any hardware store and it works. I even attach a small magnetic level to it to make sure that hole is straight.

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by grenalds View Post
    .......We made this in the shop. It kicks ass. Scrap piece of aluminum.......
    I've installed over a 100 sets of QK's in the last few months & not had one problem. About a dozen were free mounts (no jig) were I hand tapped without a guide. The trick is to dress off the top sheet after drilling with a sharp chisel & then put a half mm countersink in. Firm continual pressure & rotation on the tap is required & then take it slow for the last turn or two until the tap bottoms out. If you turn/back-off/turn/back-off the tap as you would when tapping metal you'll fuck up the hole. It's more important to concentrate on the continual pressure/rotation than keeping the tap vertical - vertical'ish will do fine as the tap will very quickly follow the line of the hole.

    If you're mounting new skis with a jig or have a jig for the already installed bindings then simply re-install the jig on the ski after you've drilled & prepped the insert holes & you'll find that the tap is a perfect fit the jig holes making tapping real fast & easy. The vast majority of the installations I've done have been this way.

    Quote Originally Posted by grenalds View Post
    .....The only step in the process that I still get frustrated is using a fastener to thread in the insert......
    For installation I use a 30mm pan head M5 screw with double locking nuts attached leaving only about 2mm of thread protrude from the nuts which is enough to screw into the insert. The long M5 screw makes it easy to hold vertical & you just screw the insert in until the locking nut stops firmly on the top sheet of the ski. The majority of the time just quick anti-clockwise flick of the driver will release the installation screw out of the insert - occasionally it might stick meaning the insert would back out with the screw sojust hold everything upright & release the locking nuts with a spanner or some needle nosed pliers.

    A couple of other tips:
    - ensure that the drill/stop collar does not get clogged with debris as susequent holes are likely to be drilled too shallow.
    - when installing the inserts in metal tp sheet'd skis go real careful to avoid erupting the top sheet around the hole.

  5. #30
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    Nice tips Jon! Thanks for chiming in - 100 sets is a lot of experience!

    Quote Originally Posted by Spyderjon View Post
    Firm continual pressure & rotation on the tap is required & then take it slow for the last turn or two until the tap bottoms out. If you turn/back-off/turn/back-off the tap as you would when tapping metal you'll fuck up the hole. It's more important to concentrate on the continual pressure/rotation than keeping the tap vertical - vertical'ish will do fine as the tap will very quickly follow the line of the hole.
    I've found the aluminum 'tap guide' takes care of both the pressure and vertical issues, which is why I like it the best of methods I have used. It would be a bit slower than using the jig as a guide. That's a good idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spyderjon View Post
    For installation I use a 30mm pan head M5 screw with double locking nuts attached leaving only about 2mm of thread protrude from the nuts which is enough to screw into the insert. The long M5 screw makes it easy to hold vertical & you just screw the insert in until the locking nut stops firmly on the top sheet of the ski. The majority of the time just quick anti-clockwise flick of the driver will release the installation screw out of the insert - occasionally it might stick meaning the insert would back out with the screw sojust hold everything upright & release the locking nuts with a spanner or some needle nosed pliers.
    This is the same method I use. I seem to fiddle with the locking nuts at least once everytime I do a ski, maybe just the way things go...

  6. #31
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    Getting closer to being done with my Bros.


  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by grenalds View Post
    The only step in the process that I still get frustrated is using a fastener to thread in the insert. Even with conservative epoxy use it can be difficult to release the insert at the bottom after ~6 holes. Any ideas?
    Quote Originally Posted by Spyderjon View Post
    For installation I use a 30mm pan head M5 screw with double locking nuts attached leaving only about 2mm of thread protrude from the nuts which is enough to screw into the insert. The long M5 screw makes it easy to hold vertical & you just screw the insert in until the locking nut stops firmly on the top sheet of the ski. The majority of the time just quick anti-clockwise flick of the driver will release the installation screw out of the insert - occasionally it might stick meaning the insert would back out with the screw sojust hold everything upright & release the locking nuts with a spanner or some needle nosed pliers.
    I initially did something similar to Spyderjon, except that I also used a washer between the locked nuts and insert. It worked well, but eventually gummed up with epoxy. I've since been using whatever m5 screw I have handy (typically m5x12) with no nuts but enough washers (5-6?) so that only a minimal amount of screw threads engage the insert. Typically, the screw backs out without issue and the inserts stays put. But, in the rare instance where the insert tries to back out with the screw, I'll grab the washers with a pair of pliers to prevent the washers from spinning with the screw. So far, this has always worked.

  8. #33
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    Oh, I also typically mix separate batches of epoxy for each toe and heel piece, so I'm only mounting 4 or 5 inserts before mixing a new batch.

  9. #34
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    for those that missed it:


    I talk a little about how to do a hand mount.
    I'll be doing another video once my guides are ready for sale, which shows how to use a drill/tap guide to make sure the holes are straight.

  10. #35
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    Mar 2011
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    Jon - any eta on the drill/tap guide? I want to get going on some insert installation ASAP & but will wait to do it if you are close to a release date on it. LOVE my dynadukes btw!

  11. #36
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    I have them now! I am so behind - having gone skiing during all my free time in the last two weeks, but I will be listing them on the website for sale this weekend.

  12. #37
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    I'm curious if anyone has ever tried putting the sollyfit or dynaduke plates on inserts? Is this crazy? It seems like this, plus another binding mount directly on the ski, with inserts would pretty much allow you to swap 3 different bindings, without hold conflict worry, as the plates shouldn't conflict with anything. Am I way off on this?

  13. #38
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    Why would you want 3 different bindings on a ski? I'd have thought touring plus alpine is enough for most people...

  14. #39
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    Not to speak for NatEE, but it might be nice to have Dukes, Dynafit, and an Alpine binder. I personally am not a huge fan of the Dukes in general, but I could see wanting to use them for short tours. I'm having the same debate with myself now: DynaDuke plates or SollyFit plates for the Lotus 120s next season?
    "Alpine rock and steep, deep powder are what I seek, and I will always find solace there." - Bean Bowers

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  15. #40
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    Basically that's the case Auv, except, ATM, I don't have "real" touring gear. I'm hoping to get into next year, and if I end up doing it enough I'll drop the cash for a Dynafit setup (at which point I'd likely want to get rid of the Dukes). But, that may or may not happen, and either way I'm sure I'll still be skiing in-bounds a lot. In the end, that's probably going to mean going with Dukes/Barons for now, not the end of the world. So, in conclusion, 3 bindings is totally overkill, unless you're neurotic and indecisive.

    However, my other reason for this suggestion, 1 alpine binder on inserts, plus the plates could work just for giving people any alpine/dynafit setup they wanted, without worrying about hole overlap. However, in looking at that lovely binding overlap pdf that's floating around on here, I can see that it probably doesn't help all that much. The swap plate holes are basically just as close to the FKS holes as the Dynafits are. So, never-mind.

    Edit: Did some more checking today, and it looks like this still might be a good way of providing options for hole placement, but it's BSL dependent if you're dealing with dukes. For example, in my case I'm somewhat interested in FKS/Duke combo, which doesn't really work with both on the line, but would be fine with a dynaduke plate.
    Last edited by NatEE; 05-16-2011 at 02:40 PM.

  16. #41
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    Maybe I missed this and maybe I'm opening myself up to relentless JONG flame-a-palooza... I also didn't want to scunt up Tech Talk any further with yet another thread.

    But, how are the inserts holding up to multiple binding swaps through out the season?

    I know that hardware to mount binders to the skis with the inserts are plentiful and easily replace. How are the inserts holding up to all screwing? (That's what she said!) My fear is stripping out the inner threads of an insert.

    Word.

  17. #42
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    Unless you cross-thread the screws by starting with too much force, I highly doubt anyone will wear out the threads. Use Vibra-Tite thread locker (basically liquid acrylic plastic that hardens up quite a bit) and don't go crazy tightening the screws. The connection to the ski doesn't get any stronger if you crank the screws, or weaker if you barely tighten the screws. You just need the screws nicely snug so there's no play between the binding and the ski, and the Vibra-Tite keeps them from backing out.

    The best way to get the screws started is to drill out the plastic holes in your bindings a bit so the screws drop right through the holes, then you can turn the screws counter-clockwise with a tiny bit of pressure against the inserts so you can feel the screw "drop" the height of one thread when you pass over the start of the thread in the insert. Then change direction and start turning the screw clockwise and you shouldn't have to worry about cross-threading. If it starts to turn hard at the start, back up and figure out what's going on before you mangle the threads. Try a different screw and see if it goes in easy (always have some extra screws), and throw away any screws that start giving you trouble.

  18. #43
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    I haven't had a single report of a stripped insert thread yet with tens of thousands of installs. I have no way of knowing how many swaps have been done, but I've swapped some of my setups over a hundred times (mostly testing, not because I do that much binding swapping).

    One of the secrets to avoiding cross-threading is using a t-handle allen wrench.

  19. #44
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    Excellent info, fellas. Thank you. That's more or less what I expected, especially with the nature of the metal inserts. I just hadn't seen it discussed or any users sharing how many times per season they have been swapping binding.

    Increasingly, this is looking like the solution for running a great alpine setup (that doesn't include Dukes/Barons) with some dynafits for touring.

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobcat Sig View Post
    Increasingly, this is looking like the solution for running a great alpine setup (that doesn't include Dukes/Barons) with some dynafits for touring.
    I like inserts (plan to do all my skis), but I wouldn't go that far. Why are you discounting the Sollyfit plate? Compared to the plate: inserts cheaper, but harder to install; they eliminate stack height, but that's generally not a problem unless you're running Dukes. On the downside, inserts put far more holes in the ski (a concern if you plan on reselling). All of this has been mentioned, I'm just pointing it out again.

    I agree that inserts are great, and they might be the best product for you and me, I just don't think they're the solution for everyone.
    "Alpine rock and steep, deep powder are what I seek, and I will always find solace there." - Bean Bowers

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  21. #46
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    I'm late to the party here, but I've also never heard of a thread stripping. I can't really see that happening as long as you put a little care into every swap.

    There are a lot of good swapping tips already covered here. This turned out to be a pretty good thread so far.

  22. #47
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    The internal threads won't strip even with many remount cycles absent user error (e.g., cross threading). The inserts are stainless steel (18-8, jondrums?) and the threads are rolled. Rolled threads somewhat work harden the material and are significantly tougher than cut threads.

    The external thread/ski core interface is sufficiently strong if the installation is done correctly with the correct epoxy, i.e., a properly installed BF insert should perform equivalent to a properly installed ABS screw. I've installed the inserts on one pair of skis with a season of use and in two other old test skis. Per my informal (unmeasured) crow bar pullout test last week with one of the test skis (K2 wood core), the inserts and ABS screws took roughly equivalent force to pull out. In both cases, the core failed at the perimeter of a plug formed by the epoxy/core mix. When these inserts first hit the market, I was a bit skeptical because I was concerned that a machine screw thread might not grip the core as well as an ABS thread. But my pullout test has given me peace of mind that a properly installed and epoxied BF insert and ABS screw (in a threaded hole) should have roughly equivalent pullout strength. My informal test confirms for me that the key is to saturate the ski core with long set epoxy so that a relatively large epoxy/core plug is formed, thus spreading the load to a larger cross section of the core. Same logic applies to ABS screws, of course. IMO, it's a good idea to inject the epoxy into the mount holes with a syringe.

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Steve View Post
    IMO, it's a good idea to inject the epoxy into the mount holes with a syringe.
    Not sure I agree with that last point. Unless you're also spreading a little on the insert before screwing it in. If you use jondrums video example, a matchstick works well because it gets epoxy into/onto the hole near the top as well as deeper in. Therefore, as you thread the insert into the hole, it spreads the epoxy up and down the outside threads and all over the hole in the ski. Therefore, more uniform coverage of the interface between the ski and the insert.

    Would love to have seen some video of your crowbar test. Maybe Lou will do something like he did with the Salomon boot toe test.
    **
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  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by auvgeek View Post
    I like inserts (plan to do all my skis), but I wouldn't go that far. Why are you discounting the Sollyfit plate? Compared to the plate: inserts cheaper, but harder to install; they eliminate stack height, but that's generally not a problem unless you're running Dukes. On the downside, inserts put far more holes in the ski (a concern if you plan on reselling). All of this has been mentioned, I'm just pointing it out again.

    I agree that inserts are great, and they might be the best product for you and me, I just don't think they're the solution for everyone.
    Quote Originally Posted by Big Steve View Post
    The internal threads won't strip even with many remount cycles absent user error (e.g., cross threading). The inserts are stainless steel (18-8, jondrums?) and the threads are rolled. Rolled threads somewhat work harden the material and are significantly tougher than cut threads.

    The external thread/ski core interface is sufficiently strong if the installation is done correctly with the correct epoxy, i.e., a properly installed BF insert should perform equivalent to a properly installed ABS screw. I've installed the inserts on one pair of skis with a season of use and in two other old test skis. Per my informal (unmeasured) crow bar pullout test last week with one of the test skis (K2 wood core), the inserts and ABS screws took roughly equivalent force to pull out. In both cases, the core failed at the perimeter of a plug formed by the epoxy/core mix. When these inserts first hit the market, I was a bit skeptical because I was concerned that a machine screw thread might not grip the core as well as an ABS thread. But my pullout test has given me peace of mind that a properly installed and epoxied BF insert and ABS screw (in a threaded hole) should have roughly equivalent pullout strength. My informal test confirms for me that the key is to saturate the ski core with long set epoxy so that a relatively large epoxy/core plug is formed, thus spreading the load to a larger cross section of the core. Same logic applies to ABS screws, of course. IMO, it's a good idea to inject the epoxy into the mount holes with a syringe.
    Excellent info, fellas. Thank you. That was what I figured, but since it was never explicitly covered, I felt it good to ask. Sort of a, "No news is good news," type scenario.

    To auvgeek, here's my thought my process and how I arrived at the inserts - all while not cunting up Tech Talk with another JONG-tastic October themed thread of, "What should I do" ...

    In a massive gear overhaul this year, I've decided to make the investment backcountry gear. As such, my initial thought was to mount up some Dukes to my new skis (Bibbys, most likely). That would satiate all of my lift-served needs and give me and slackcountry functionality I needed. Second to that, my though was to mount up some dynafits to a dedicated backcountry ski. But ...

    In reading what Mags were doing with Bibbys and the new trending of focusing on the 'down' of backcountry skiing and in talking with a buddy, he suggested the inserts. Then, I would be able to run pure alpine bindings at substantial cost savings over Dukes and then swap in the Dynafits for days dedicated solely to earning turns. My guess is that I'd be doing 70/30 alpine/touring.

    While I did consider the plates, (which look pretty awesome, BTW,) I tend to keep skis until end-of-life and I'm not a binding whore. I run what works and go from there. I also didn't want to run Dukes on a plate for the reason mentioned; stack height. That led me back to the inserts.

    The last issue I'm grappling with is lift-served slackcountry. Mainly, I thought of skiing out of the gates at Jackson and the ensuing trip back. It'd be nice to get farther out or be able to get back quicker. The Dukes would do that nicely. But then I'm back to either the plates or running Dukes on a ski with no other binding options. Plus, the additional costs of Dukes.

    Did I sufficiently talk myself in circles? Clear as mud? Good.

    I'm certainly willing to listen to opinions, thoughts and waves of unrelenting criticism.

  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sinecure View Post
    Not sure I agree with that last point. Unless you're also spreading a little on the insert before screwing it in. If you use jondrums video example, a matchstick works well because it gets epoxy into/onto the hole near the top as well as deeper in. Therefore, as you thread the insert into the hole, it spreads the epoxy up and down the outside threads and all over the hole in the ski. Therefore, more uniform coverage of the interface between the ski and the insert.

    Would love to have seen some video of your crowbar test. Maybe Lou will do something like he did with the Salomon boot toe test.
    The trick is using enough epoxy to get it to push up just a bit when the insert bottoms out. Too much is a mess, too little leaves you wondering about the strength of that insert. I've done about 60 inserts and some of the little tricks just have be learned through trial and error.

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