Review: Binding Freedom Inserts - The Swiss Cheese Experiment

[galibier_numero_un]

Added photos to post #375 above (inserts were installed & the final mount).

Question Thom. Why not use wood plugs?

Probably would have worked just as well. I had the fiberglass on hand.

Maybe the glass restores some of the top sheet's continuity? Just guessing here.

There was so much Swiss-cheesing, I wanted to err on the cautious side.

... Thom

[Lord Thomas]

So, just to double check, G/Flex is the epoxy of choice for inserts? It's that or I have some DEVCON 10110 steel impregnated epoxy that is the material of choice for bedding rifles (works exceptionally well in that application). Have two sets of inserts for my BMT's needing to be set.

[margotron]

So, just to double check, G/Flex is the epoxy of choice for inserts? It's that or I have some DEVCON 10110 steel impregnated epoxy that is the material of choice for bedding rifles (works exceptionally well in that application). Have two sets of inserts for my BMT's needing to be set.

GFlex.

[galibier_numero_un]

So, just to double check, G/Flex is the epoxy of choice for inserts? It's that or I have some DEVCON 10110 steel impregnated epoxy that is the material of choice for bedding rifles (works exceptionally well in that application). Have two sets of inserts for my BMT's needing to be set.

Sounds like a variant of JB Weld. The key question is temperature and flexibility. I don't know anything about the Devcon stuff, but we've all had great experience with G-flex due to its flexibility over a wide range of temperatures.

... Thom

[Lord Thomas]

The 10110 is harder than shit and machinable; not in the least bit flexible....but there really isn't any appreciable flex happening in that .003" around each insert. But if Gflex has worked for a bunch of different people over the years then that's what I'll use.

[dschane]

Hardman Double Bubble 24-hour epoxy (the blue) is also the shit. You can get it reasonably cheap in bulk from the Epoxy Source. Well, somewhat spendy is probably more accurate than reasonably cheap, but a better deal than buying single packets.

[margotron]

The 10110 is harder than shit and machinable; not in the least bit flexible....but there really isn't any appreciable flex happening in that .003" around each insert. But if Gflex has worked for a bunch of different people over the years then that's what I'll use.

My experience says there is sufficient flex to affect standard epoxies but not GFlex. Can't speak for Devcon. If you trust the stuff, go for it.

It should be noted that GFlex was designed for marine environments with fiberglass boats, and situations that will see substantial time underwater (perhaps 99% of its lifetime). For a ski, I couldn't ask for a better designed product. Can you?


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[LeoK]

I'd give serious consideration to any of the plugs that are butted up against their adjacent inserts. I may be OCD, but a few of your plugs give me the creeps.

You've already done the heavy lifting (installing the inserts). If it were me, I'd extract any of the "risky" blue plugs and either fill with JB weld or a matrix of G-flex with fiberglass or steel wool.

... Thom

Thank you for pointing this out to me!

I was already happily skiing again. If I get the time to repair my other pair that I fucked up I might do this in one go. So one (very dumb) question:

You would take out the insert, fill and redrill, tap and install or you just pull the blue plastic and fill next to the insert that remains in place?

[galibier_numero_un]

Ill bet you could extract the plug, leaving the insert in place.

Drill a small hole in the center of the insert (1/8" drill bit or smaller) insert a small screw in the hole and lever it out the way one would remove a nail. You might just be able to grab the screw with a plier and tug on it to remove the plug. .

Fill with strong stuff as mentioned above.

... Thom

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[LeoK]

Thank you so much. I will do so!

[galibier_numero_un]

Thank you so much. I will do so!

Like doing a root canal only easier ;-)

... Thom

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[DtEW]

First: casu marzu. I really had to get that off my chest.

My question for this thread is, "how bad of an idea is this?"



(I suspect I already know the answer.)

This would be for the heel of a Salomon MTN surrounded by the about-to-be-plugged-with-hardwood-plugs/Hardman-Orange holes of a Marker Baron (plugging and curing would obviously come first before putting holes in for the inserts). Sure, there are theoretically lots of options for placing the heel esp. given the MTN's rail adjustment range, but all of them deviate from ideal for a variety of reasons that I think would be tedious to discuss here. Suffice it to say that this is the preferred location. I'm just seeking opinions on whether this is dropping a chute toward obvious destruction (and therefore avoid at all costs), or... maybe ok?

I do have a drill press nowadays, so maybe my odds are somewhat improved?

FYI, the toe placement would be a non-issue with the heel here.

Alternatively... I can (reluctantly) give up on the inserts, like so:



I'd rather give up on inserts rather than adjust heel placement. Again, reasons too tedious to enumerate.

What do y'all think?

[margotron]

What do y'all think?

You're golden with the inserts. Plug those holes then let'er rip

[dschane]

Agreed. Looks tight but will work.

[galibier_numero_un]

You're golden with the inserts. Plug those holes then let'er rip

Agreed. Looks tight but will work.

3rd vote in favor ... but you already knew that ;-)

[beasttowest]

Wanted to share learnings/tips for other binding mount rookies with limited woodworking/DIY experience like myself. This will be boring ABC song level stuff for the veteran mags here so sorry in advance & skip this post if that’s you.
I was a complete novice—no previous mounts before attempting this insert job.

Shoutouts to:

• galibier for the skis + detailed mounting tips and even did me a huge solid by throwing on centerline tape & center-punching holes prior to shipping them
• margotron, dschane, stefanie for advice/replies here

Bought all the tools via BF website. Call SVST (Sun Valley Ski Tools—company that bought BF from jondrums as i understand it) if you have any questions—they pick up the phone quick.

Learnings

• Prep: Soak everything in acetone/alcohol/degreaser prior to use. Not JUST inserts, also clean the tap and bits
  Why do this: Tap handle has grease on it too. I got grease on hands taking it out of bag (brand new) and then grease on my fingertips got on inserts.
• Test mount: take 10 secs to think- how is the piece of wood you’re doing test mount on different from the ski you’re going to drill later? Is the wood/material softer or lower quality than that of your skis?
  Why do this: To ensure your hole depth is correct on actual ski. I used a piece of leftover fence from garage instead of 2x4/similar. Wasn’t real wood so I was able to cut through the material far easier than on actual ski. This led to me not drilling deep enough by a hair on actual ski later on… LeoK & many others had similar problem earlier with not drilling deep enough

1. I learned from my mistakes that holes have to be deep enough

• Test Drilling: practice on hunk of scrap wood—if you don’t want to spend time going through whole measuring, paper template practice process, at least just drill a few test holes with varying pressure to get a feel for depth(s), then test with inserts
• Tapping:
  1) Start tapping with threads in same spot every time, and
  2) Count turns out loud to keep track—if you ever have to go back in and tap a bit more, this’ll help guard against thread damage.
  Why do these things: I drilled one hole a bit shallow on ski. Realized this after tapping. Was pissed the fuck off for 30 seconds before realizing what all those posts I had read about “re-tapping” and helicoiling were about. Got the nerve to re-tap and it went fine thankfully because I remembered steps 1 & 2

Process
1. Acetone


2. Template- galibier props again


3.First holes--they were too shallow i later learned


3.5.After deburring+ tapping, used tweezers to grab a stubborn shaving

4. Epoxy: used plastic fork


5. Epoxy in- will do more next time. I was concerned about overflow into inserts having never done it before


6. First 2 inserts--sticking out by .5 thread
**salvaged by using big flat head screwdriver (after initially using BF insert tool) to finish with a half crank down to flush-- saw this in jondrums' old video (made before insert tool existed!)

[galibier_numero_un]

Good job! I too found a screwdriver with the tip ground down to the same width as the BF insert's slots to work well.

I initially purchased the insertion tool. I think it was an early production batch and the tip distorted rather quickly. I returned it for credit (got more more inserts - they were great about it) and have been using a screwdriver ever since.

I'll use the double-nut on a screw method to get close to full insertion. This gives me a better view of inserting perpendicular to the ski. You can finagle a bit if necessary. I'll then finish up with the screwdriver to get the inserts about half a thread below the top surface of the ski (ski thickness dependent, of course).

A shop vac is handy for keeping the holes clean. We all know we're dentists at heart, and many of these steps resemble either doing a root canal or a filling. I'm vacuuming a lot through the entire process.

... Thom

[DtEW]

This is just documentation of my install of Binding Freedom inserts, and no expertise is implied. Criticism and feedback is welcome.

The facts:

• These are a pair of 2009 Volkl Gotamas ("Tokyo Nights", last of the flat goats) in 176cm that didn't see much use.
• The singular prior mount pattern was from a pair of Marker Barons.
• The current mounting is for a pair of Salomon MTN w/brakes.
• Constraints deriving from 1) existing hole pattern; 2) desire to shift boot-center backwards, but not aft of the marked "boot center" line; and 3) accommodation of BSL of not only the current boot, but of other boots I might have an interest in... altogether required that both the toe and heel units be mounted fully within the existing hole patterns. It was that or shift the whole mount 2-3 cm aft, which would put it well behind the "boot center" line.*

* I suppose more location options would be available if I involved Quiver Killer's large-diameter Rescue Inserts (instead of overlapping holes, you would just obliterate them), but I would lose the option to rescue a mistake with this install. And it is my first BF install.

Supplies were acquired from Binding Freedom and Slide Wright.

Prior Work

Binding Freedom inserts and cutting tools (drill bit & tap) were soaked in mineral spirits for a day, de-greased with Simple Green for a few hours, and soaked in a water (with a few changes) for a few hours.

Insert locations were determined. In my case, in the absence of an available template/jig... mount points were measured from the binding and then marked on painter's tape. Locations were permanently marked with a centerpunch.

Existing, unneeded binding holes were cleaned with an air compressor.

Filling Of Existing Holes

Unneeded binding holes were syringe-injected with epoxy (Hardman Orange), plugged with Snoli hardwood plugs, then mallet-hammered as deep as they would go. The tapered plugs did not always seat vertically in the holes, but I figured it was better to let them assume their natural positions rather than force them into any other orientation. And I figured it'll be moot after trimming.

Trimming of Hardwood Plugs

18 hours later, excess plug length and semi-cured excess epoxy was rough-trimmed with a Dremel w/disk cutter bit, and then fine-trimmed with a bare box-cutter blade wielded as a saw/chisel. (Grinding the plugged holes down by 0.5mm into a shallow recess for sealing with more epoxy will happen at the very end, at the same time as the last round of inserts being epoxied in.)

Drilling

Drilling was done using a drill press equipped with Binding Freedom drill bit. I found that I needed to drill a *little* deeper than the shoulder of the stepped bit in order to allow the tap to cut deep enough* to allow the inserts to screw-in* without protrusion at the top.

* at reasonable torques that didn't make you suspect that you might be stripping the threads.

The fiberglass content in most skis would make the use of a respirator a good idea.

Newly-drilled holes were cleaned with an air compressor.

Tapping

A tap guide was made from a bit of waste polycarbonate to ensure that the tap bites immediately and vertically so that the shallowest cut of the hole (which is the most strength-bearing) is clean.

I found it helpful to mark the tap with a bit of tape (not visible in the photo) to establish the depth I need to go to cut enough threads for the inserts.

Unsurprisingly, the tap guide wore with each successive usage to where you can observe increasing play. In the future, i might make a tap guide with a larger number of holes to better-sustain precision.

Newly-cut threaded holes were cleaned with an air compressor.

Admiring

Nice threads, even if I do say so myself.

Admiring of one's own handiwork is an essential part of the do-it-yourself-process, but it can add substantially to the amount of time the entire project takes.

Inserts were trial-fitted into threaded holes without epoxy, then removed.

Installation of Inserts

Epoxy was applied with a toothpick (the emphasis was to coat the cut threads), and the inserts were screwed-in using the Binding Freedom insert installation tool. As others have noted, the installation tool's engagement teeth rounds out really quickly, limiting its usefulness at the end where some torque is required. By that point, the insert is mostly flush, and most-importantly, stable... so I used a cut-down screwdriver to crank them down to their final positions.

During the screw-in, careful management of extruded excess epoxy with a toothpick and paper towel allowed the insert's machine threads to be kept clean of epoxy contamination.

Curing
Right after inserts were installed and excess epoxy was cleaned, the binding (heel unit, in this case) was installed onto the inserts with the Pozi-drive machine screws with a medium* amount of torque to force the mount pattern to assume dimensions closer to nominal (I'm a medium-precision human, not a high-precision machine) than otherwise. 18 hours (specified by Hardman as sufficient curing to be "handleable") was enough time to wait to back-out the machine screws to remove the binding for the next stage of work.

* for lack of a better description. As in, not tight enough where I would feel comfortable using it, but more than loose. And with little risk that backing it out would require significant torque.

I'll let y'all know at some point if it's bomber or otherwise.

Time-skip edit (not wanting to spam-bump with a new post):

Grinding the plugged conventional screw holes into a ~0.5mm recess was achieved with a Dremel 196 carving/speed cutter on the drill press. This was the prefect size and worked like a charm. Recesses were filled with a thin film of Hardman Orange epoxy and allowed to cure.

Here is the final result, with bindings installed.

[margotron]

Looks great. Good job!


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[galibier_numero_un]

Great job, and you have a great collection of tools. I'd add a tap handle into the mix ;-) It will be easier to control the tap, in conjunction with a guide.

... Thom

[margotron]

If you really can't get something to fit or shit hits the fan, there is also this option. Has anyone else used these? They are 10mm inserts. Photo is a Rescue insert next to a standard insert in my ravens.

https://quiverkiller.com/products/qk-rescue-insert-kit




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[beasttowest]

. By that point, the insert is mostly flush, and most-importantly, stable... so I used a cut-down screwdriver to crank them down to their final positions.

Great summary. Sounds like the last crank with a screwdriver is common for a lot of us.

[Red7]

Is JB Weld "original cold-weld steel reinforced" epoxy fine for installing the BF inserts? It says on the package that it's their strongest epoxy and is rated to 5020 PSI. I only had 5 min epoxy at home and ran to Lowes and this looked like the strongest epoxy but once mixed it's grey instead of clear so just want to be sure this won't be a problem for installing inserts before I do any more skis. Thanks!

[WesternWard]

The epoxy that binding freedom sells (hardman double bubble) also mixes up as grey FWIW.

[margotron]

Is JB Weld "original cold-weld steel reinforced" epoxy fine for installing the BF inserts? It says on the package that it's their strongest epoxy and is rated to 5020 PSI. I only had 5 min epoxy at home and ran to Lowes and this looked like the strongest epoxy but once mixed it's grey instead of clear so just want to be sure this won't be a problem for installing inserts before I do any more skis. Thanks!

Nonononono

JB weld is brittle and does not handle cold well. It cracks easily. Think of it like glass - hard but brittle. We are after a malleable epoxy. Think like clay.

Use the recommended stuff in the thread. If you can’t do it the right way today, well, that’s fine, but you run the risk of things coming loose.

Now if you’re down by all means full speed ahead. Just accept you’re going down a not recommended path




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