Utah Search and Rescue Bill

[Rontele]

I have a friend who was "rescued" by Grand County Search and Rescue this summer while mountain biking in Moab. At the time, he was only given transport from the trail down to town on ATV (i.e., not heli evac, etc.). He has received a substantial bill to cover the costs of his SAR. I am wondering if he is on the hook for the bill (law is different in Colorado). He wants to make a generous donation to the Grand County SAR for their efforts, but feels the bill is immensely out of proportion.

Thanks for any insight you can provide.

[karpiel]

"Rescued"?

[montanaskier]

PM Rontele

[gunit130]

I don't want to hijack, but this is a similar question.

A buddy of mine got injured in CO backcountry adjacent to a ski area. Called in SuCo SAR and they came in, but only hiking/skinning. They said to us, back in the parking lot, that it was, "free of charge", "we don't mind doing this stuff at all, it's what we're here for", "there is no charge".

My friend got a bill for $189 or something like that about 3 weeks later. Why?

Another question: Would SAR be able to bill someone if they decided to 'move-in' without actually being called?

[Helldawg]

This thread is worthless without more info. How badly in distress was said party? How far were they transported? How much were they charged???

Maybe SAR should just close their doors and let Darwin do the rest? They cannot fund their operation on sixers and +++vibes+++ alone...

[grskier]

At least tell us the scale of the proportionality.

[Rontele]

Sounds like a minor injury riding. Could not finish the remainder of the ride so friends called SAR. SAR picked him up from Hazard County TH (I think) and drove him back to town. Bill is for a couple thousand dollars.

[grskier]

Sounds like a minor injury riding. Could not finish the remainder of the ride so friends called SAR. SAR picked him up from Hazard County TH (I think) and drove him back to town. Bill is for a couple thousand dollars.

If from the trailhead... I'd say that's astronomical and too bad. Curious as to the "rules" in Utah.

[jon gaper]

only a fool gives their real name to money hungry government.

always carry your fake 3rd world ID

[DasBlunt]

thousands? wow. 200 for time and gas, maybe.

189 in slumit, reasonable.

[Jethro]

I'd fucking drag myself through snow drifts on my belly before I submitted to the humility of a SAR call. I have helped a very tough friend out of the backcountry with a dislocated shoulder, torn MCL, and a hip injury when he was caught in a slide. No way he was going to accept help from the SAR if there was any chance of a self rescue. It took hours of excruciating pain for him, but we made it out. My wife is on the local SAR team here, and she is under orders from me to wait 24 hrs before she calls her friends on me. And you know what? In Pitkin county (Colorado) SAR refuses to charge for help since they would rather a person call for help when they did not really need it as opposed to dying because they could not afford it. This is a very generous position to take but it is an affluent area. I do not know if Moab SAR is in the same position

I think in the Moab area, they have gotten tired of rescuing people who cannot/will not help themselves. Due to the terrain and temperatures (high and low) there can definitely be an urgency. They probably get tired or well heeled out of towners getting lost and needing help. Moab is one of the most difficult areas to search due to the geography. Unfortunately people might not call when they really need help if they cannot afford it.

Why didn't your friends drive back up and pick him up? A couple of thousand seems steep though.

I have a co-worker who's best friends came out to Moab from Iowa for some biking about twenty years ago. They got lost on Porcupine rim, and local SAR did nothing. After a Week or so, the Iowa National Guard Flew a chopper out there after being asked by the frantic parents, and found them both dead in a deep pothole. The air search took about an hour and a half. They surmised one fell in and broke his leg. The other might have jumped in to help and they could not get out. This is the type of stuff SAR should be doing. If you break an arm, start walking. SAR should be for life and death issues, not minor pain and inconvenience. In Aspen where I live, my wife said they recently got a call for a missing dog! People routinely call from a steep local trail behind a health club after they twist an ankle on their 1/2 hour speed hike. Self sufficiency has a price, and if you cannot do it, pay it!

I re-read my rambling post, and I know I sound like a dick, but I am posting it anyway. I think I have some valid points.

John

Added later: I think everyone in your friend's riding group should pony up and pay their share. Your friend needed help and his friends could not help him themselves.

[SkiNowWorkLater]

In Aspen where I live, my wife said they recently got a call for a missing dog! People routinely call from a steep local trail behind a health club after they twist an ankle on their 1/2 hour speed hike.

Although very sad, none of these really surprises me.

[funkendrenchman]

People routinely call from a steep local trail behind a health club after they twist an ankle on their 1/2 hour speed hike.

Yea, we had a guest who called after they got "lost" on the Ute. It even made the paper, lol.

[smitchell333]

I don't know the answer but I could refer a SLC attorney/family friend who might be able to help you answer the question.

This article from 2004 says that Grand County SAR has been billing and then turning over to a collections agency.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/...searches_x.htm

You're not too specific on the circumstances, but it seems like his friends should have arranged a car to come pick him up rather than call SAR.

The amount you quoted seems WAY too high though. Maybe ask for a itemized version to explain the cost.

[DasBlunt]

I'd fucking drag myself through snow drifts on my belly before I submitted to the humility of a SAR call. I have helped a very tough friend out of the backcountry with a dislocated shoulder, torn MCL, and a hip injury when he was caught in a slide. No way he was going to accept help from the SAR if there was any chance of a self rescue. It took hours of excruciating pain for him, but we made it out. My wife is on the local SAR team here, and she is under orders from me to wait 24 hrs before she calls her friends on me. And you know what? In Pitkin county (Colorado) SAR refuses to charge for help since they would rather a person call for help when they did not really need it as opposed to dying because they could not afford it. This is a very generous position to take but it is an affluent area. I do not know if Moab SAR is in the same position

I think in the Moab area, they have gotten tired of rescuing people who cannot/will not help themselves. Due to the terrain and temperatures (high and low) there can definitely be an urgency. They probably get tired or well heeled out of towners getting lost and needing help. Moab is one of the most difficult areas to search due to the geography. Unfortunately people might not call when they really need help if they cannot afford it.

Why didn't your friends drive back up and pick him up? A couple of thousand seems steep though.

I have a co-worker who's best friends came out to Moab from Iowa for some biking about twenty years ago. They got lost on Porcupine rim, and local SAR did nothing. After a Week or so, the Iowa National Guard Flew a chopper out there after being asked by the frantic parents, and found them both dead in a deep pothole. The air search took about an hour and a half. They surmised one fell in and broke his leg. The other might have jumped in to help and they could not get out. This is the type of stuff SAR should be doing. If you break an arm, start walking. SAR should be for life and death issues, not minor pain and inconvenience. In Aspen where I live, my wife said they recently got a call for a missing dog! People routinely call from a steep local trail behind a health club after they twist an ankle on their 1/2 hour speed hike. Self sufficiency has a price, and if you cannot do it, pay it!

I re-read my rambling post, and I know I sound like a dick, but I am posting it anyway. I think I have some valid points.

John

Added later: I think everyone in your friend's riding group should pony up and pay their share. Your friend needed help and his friends could not help him themselves.

Quoted for truth.

[gunit130]

DasBlunt quoting for truth. In reality you don't seem to have a clue or any real life experience. Am I right?

[Zesty Not Spicy]

Weber County, at least I'm assuming it was Weber (Snowbasin BC) didn't charge us for a night time heli-vac a couple years ago. We were expecting to have to mortgage the house but all they said was "it's a free ride tonight boys".

Even if the TH wasn't accessible by car (you mentioned ATV) a couple G's for a glorified cab ride sounds obnoxious! Most of the guys that get sent out on a basic retrieval are usually unpaid volunteers.

[sfotex]

Salt Lake County doesn't charge either. (however AirMed and LifeFlight charge if they transport to the hospital.) Typically most MRA and NASAR teams don't bill.

From here:
http://www.utah.com/playgrounds/sand_flats.htm

Stay found, save money. Grand County has the highest incidence of search and rescue in Utah. The high cost of these operations is normally the responsibility of the rescued party.

[fomofo]

Getting carried or helicoptered off a mountain is already stressful, but the idea of paying for the privilege is enough to set any hiker’s teeth on edge. And while most subjects of a wilderness rescue will never face a bill or a fine, there are a few exceptions.

Do Hikers Have to Pay for Search and Rescue?

[halliday]

Getting carried or helicoptered off a mountain is already stressful, but the idea of paying for the privilege is enough to set any hiker’s teeth on edge. And while most subjects of a wilderness rescue will never face a bill or a fine, there are a few exceptions.

Do Hikers Have to Pay for Search and Rescue?

Preparedness and a little fortitude go a long way while in the back country. Go out like you may have to spend the night. Not in luxury but enough to feed yourself and provide some shelter. Sun up, regroup, head out.

[old goat]

Getting carried or helicoptered off a mountain is already stressful, but the idea of paying for the privilege is enough to set any hiker’s teeth on edge. And while most subjects of a wilderness rescue will never face a bill or a fine, there are a few exceptions.

Do Hikers Have to Pay for Search and Rescue?

What a bunch of entitled bullshit. It's nice that most rescues are free but it's a gift, not a right. And when they put you in an ambulance when they get you to a road you better believe that ambulance will charge you. While a lot of SAR is volunteer (and a lot isn't) helicopters most definitely are not free. If you get hurt in a car accident, whether it's your fault or not you will pay. Why does being in the backcountry give you free rescue privileges.

[exsparky]

Can I pay for your student loans too?

That double major in womyn's and religious studies for $130,000 for 6 years was just bad luck not a bad idea.

[ex-powderbroker]

https://datausa.io/profile/cip/cultural-gender-studies

[fomofo]

What a bunch of entitled bullshit. It's nice that most rescues are free but it's a gift, not a right. And when they put you in an ambulance when they get you to a road you better believe that ambulance will charge you. While a lot of SAR is volunteer (and a lot isn't) helicopters most definitely are not free. If you get hurt in a car accident, whether it's your fault or not you will pay. Why does being in the backcountry give you free rescue privileges.

I agree that people should not do overtly stupid shit, and make an effort to be self-sufficient, but regarding the heli thing: Is it a free ride for a backcountry rescue? For hikers? Skiers? Does it make any difference?

I know Coast Guard helicopters get dispatched with seeming frequency to pluck people who've gotten stuck midway down a coastal cliff. Do people get charged for that? If you break your leg/back/etc skiing and get a Medevac ride from a resort to a medical center that's certainly not free as far as I know, although flight insurance can apparently make a big diff, if, of course, you've bought it ahead of time.

Quote from the article...

Then there’s the philosophical objection. As CSAR puts it: “Law enforcement organizations don’t charge when a child goes missing in a city. The Coast Guard doesn’t charge when they respond to a boat accident. FEMA doesn’t charge when a building collapses. Why should backcountry search and rescue be any different?”

Reason were given in the article as to why - don't want people not to call for help - but if you're in a city and need an ambulance ride, it's a crapshoot what you're in for. Is the Fire Department ambulance free/cheaper than private? Does cost vary depending on which ambulance service transports you, also whether they have an arrangement with your insurance carrier? The whole thing, like healthcare generally, seems hopelessly convoluted when it comes to cost. No accident, that.

I found an old Ambulance Fees thread from 2010. Things have changed, certainly gotten more expensive. And TGR was, er, saltier back then. ;-)

[BCMtnHound]

The part about call as soon as ‘real’ help is needed is important. Don’t delay - better for outcomes all around.

The prevalence of emergency devices - first InReach (spot was OK but still not wide consumer level use), now iPhone and Sat text services - have created issues. Receiving calls for someone out of gas within cell service and <20km from help bothers me. We get paid for the call either way, but what if resources are expended for such and take away from a more serious request. Tasking agencies here control what happens (cops, ambulance, coroner, etc) so hopefully they are making the best decision on the priority of help provider where response capacity is scarce.

And yes, helis are paid for by the taxpayer (most pilots volunteer the time - not clear on the actual contract). But we couldn’t perform as well without that help - greatly reduces the risk to responders with the air support. The model works. For now.