Two killed in collision.

[Jethro]

Some years ago we were skiing the trees off of Solitude lift at Squaw. My wife came out of the trees onto a blue groomer. Yes--she looked up hill first--what she did not see was the junior ski team racer uphill of a roller and out of sight straightlining the run and getting air off the roller. The only reason my wife is alive is because the kid flew OVER her head. The ski team was apparently practicing their prejumps--on a blue run open to the public on a weekend at a busy resort. The coach with the group said he was spotting, apparently not very well. When we had words he could not see that what he had his kids doing was wrong. I'm still pissed about it years later--not so much by the accident as by the attitude of a coach who should know better. If a coach can be that dumb it may be too much to expect a member of the general public to be any smarter.

My thoughts are with the families of the three victims and with the patrollers who responded.

You were right to be angry. How about this scenario? I like to ski next to the trees, sometimes for better sight in low light situations, and because the snow can be better there. Every now and then some small kid (usually)will shoot out into the run right in front of me from the trees on the side of the run. I am skiing fast and in control, and can see everything on the run in front of me, but suddenly this kid will appear with no notice and without looking uphill or yielding. I would feel terrible if I hit him/her, but I would feel I was not responsible for any accident. This is the driving equivilent of someone running a stoplight when the other driver had the right of way. Youth or ignorance is really no excuse.

I was skiing with a friend and his young son today and pointed out to the dad that his boy never looks uphill when entering or traversing a slope. We had to take a catwalk at the Aspen Highlands from the Deception bowl side back to the lifts. The cat crosses about three runs, and each time he shot out onto a run he never looked. The father has been working on this, but he says that for the last week that the boy has spent with his ski group, only the coach/instructor looks and everyone else just follows. These are skills which need to be taught. Obviously this fun sport we do can have the same consequences as driving an automobile.

P.S. The cat trail I am talking about dissappears across the runs and is an ungroomed small road in the trees. It is virtually invisible to a skier going down the runs who does not know it is there. I am not talking about a major shelf of a road which you would expect someone to be on.

[neckdeep]

Every now and then some small kid (usually)will shoot out into the run right in front of me from the trees on the side of the run. I am skiing fast and in control, and can see everything on the run in front of me, but suddenly this kid will appear with no notice and without looking uphill or yielding. I would feel terrible if I hit him/her, but I would feel I was not responsible for any accident. This is the driving equivilent of someone running a stoplight when the other driver had the right of way. Youth or ignorance is really no excuse.

.

Incorrect, Jethro. Although you can make an argument for contributary negligence, you freely chose to ski a groomer zone with limited sight lines, admittedly knowing that inexperienced people are likely to blindly pop out of the trees in front you. You are aware of this yet unwilling to alter your own behavior to protect others because your personal jollies are more important than safety. Not a good start. Moreover, being unable to stop in time to avoid said noob is, by the very definition of skier responsibility rule #1, not skiing "in control" as you feel you are doing. So, actually, you are the negligent party and a proximate cause of such a collision.

[SeatownSlackey]

Incorrect, Jethro. Although you can make an argument for contributary negligence, you freely chose to ski a groomer zone with limited sight lines, admittedly knowing that inexperienced people are likely to blindly pop out of the trees in front you. You are aware of this yet unwilling to alter your own behavior to protect others because your personal jollies are more important than safety. Not a good start. Moreover, being unable to stop in time to avoid said noob is, by the very definition of skier responsibility rule #1, not skiing "in control" as you feel you are doing. So, actually, you are the negligent party and a proximate cause of such a collision.

what fucking planet are you from???

[neckdeep]

what fucking planet are you from???

Seatown is da man, he rips the groomers and slaloms kiddies on planet Narcissus. I lived on planet Lawyer for five years so I know how tort law works. Now I live on planet I'm getting tired of explaining things to guys who think fast skiing groomers gives them any sort of cred on TGR.

[DasBlunt]

Seatown is da man, he rips the groomers and slaloms kiddies on planet Narcissus. I lived on planet Lawyer for five years so I know how tort law works. Now I live on planet I'm getting tired of explaining things to guys who think fast skiing groomers gives them any sort of cred on TGR.

Glad someone is saying this.

[Jethro]

Incorrect, Jethro. Although you can make an argument for contributary negligence, you freely chose to ski a groomer zone with limited sight lines, admittedly knowing that inexperienced people are likely to blindly pop out of the trees in front you. You are aware of this yet unwilling to alter your own behavior to protect others because your personal jollies are more important than safety. Not a good start. Moreover, being unable to stop in time to avoid said noob is, by the very definition of skier responsibility rule #1, not skiing "in control" as you feel you are doing. So, actually, you are the negligent party and a proximate cause of such a collision.

I do not think it is as simple as that. I am not necessarily thinking of a groomed slope and rippin fast, reckless skiing. Skiing fast and being able to assess everyone on the slope below me is still responsible skiing. The same could happen on a steeper slope in powder or crud conditions. Blindly entering a slope is the reckless condition. The unfortunate fact is that kids do it probably more that adults. While any skier/boarder on a slope should have the presumption that they will be safe from skiers coming down from above them, this is for people on the slope, whether they are visible, skiing, stopped, fallen, etc. The condition that is not covered is entering a slope. A person entering a slope is required to look uphill and YIELD to skiers in motion. Period. This is not only a good idea, it is the law. If someone shot out of the trees and gave a skier in motion no time to react before a collision happened, they would be at fault. If a jury could see a video of such an accident, they would most likely side with the skier in motion. Now if you entered a slope five seconds ago, I would say you are the lower skier and have every right to not be hit from above. I cannot believe I have to defend skiing next to the trees as a responsible/legal thing to do versus suddenly cutting into a run and not yielding to someone already there.

[bendtheski]

Seatown is da man, he rips the groomers and slaloms kiddies on planet Narcissus. I lived on planet Lawyer for five years so I know how tort law works. Now I live on planet I'm getting tired of explaining things to guys who think fast skiing groomers gives them any sort of cred on TGR.

Less if you wear a speed suit; owned or borrowed.

[DasBlunt]

I do not think it is as simple as that. I am not necessarily thinking of a groomed slope and rippin fast, reckless skiing. Skiing fast and being able to assess everyone on the slope below me is still responsible skiing. The same could happen on a steeper slope in powder or crud conditions. Blindly entering a slope is the reckless condition. The unfortunate fact is that kids do it probably more that adults. While any skier/boarder on a slope should have the presumption that they will be safe from skiers coming down from above them, this is for people on the slope, whether they are visible, skiing, stopped, fallen, etc. The condition that is not covered is entering a slope. A person entering a slope is required to look uphill and YIELD to skiers in motion. Period. This is not only a good idea, it is the law. If someone shot out of the trees and gave a skier in motion no time to react before a collision happened, they would be at fault. If a jury could see a video of such an accident, they would most likely side with the skier in motion. Now if you entered a slope five seconds ago, I would say you are the lower skier and have every right to not be hit from above. I cannot believe I have to defend skiing next to the trees as a responsible/legal thing to do versus suddenly cutting into a run and not yielding to someone already there.

that makes more sense now. entering a slope without looking uphill is against the law, true. I would be yelling at the fuckers.

[Eluder]

I hate this thread.

[outabounds]

Seatown is da man, he rips the groomers and slaloms kiddies on planet Narcissus. I lived on planet Lawyer for five years so I know how tort law works. Now I live on planet I'm getting tired of explaining things to guys who think fast skiing groomers gives them any sort of cred on TGR.

Are you a lawyer?

[Jethro]

Here is a longer version of the racer kid jumping by the snowboard carvers.[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RU7hXd4wlz0&NR=1I"]YouTube - FIN BURN EXTENDED![/nomedia] do not know if they could have gotten any closer to the edge of the run, and they were staggered up the mountain, so I'd say they were visible from above. Very close call for several people.

[powdork]

i don't know. he could clearly see the two sitting snowboarders. it didn't really appear to be a blind rollover.
and apparently, they could have gotten closer to the edge of the run (he did).
i'm sitting here thinking, fuck, Dookey really is slaying the groomers at N*.

I missed it the first time cuz it happens real fast in the boring part. it's at 1:20, and it's pretty badass (the fact that it's in this thread notwithstanding). you have to advance it frame by frame to see him bonk the bamboo. didn't really appear to be a close call for anyone.

[Maximus Farcisimus]

Christmas week is the scariest time of the year on the hill.

I avoid it like like the plague.

[Canada1]

The fact that people are debating fault when a kid and mother were killed from behind on a groomer is just insane. I can't imagine going skiing one morning and not having my five year old and wife come home.

As my kids have advanced, I do my best to keep them off of the groomers. About 25 days into this season and I have been hit twice. Both times in slow zones. Both time putting myself between my five year old and a young male snow boarder. Time one, kid was jumping an out of bounds rope next to a slow sign. Time 2, kid was hucking a 3' cliff onto a groomed slow zone. I'm preaching to him to watch around him, but to expect a 5 year old to have the power of observation to see this happening is alot.

As I look at this, the young boarder is lucky.(overly fatalistic, but in my mind he is a murderer) If he lived, he would have to be dealing with having taken the life of an innocent kid and probably the potential for manslaughter charges. (although Wyoming is not that aggressive a jurisdiction).

My heart bleeds for the families of everyone associated with this incident. As stated earlier, when you have kids, the current state of having to block to protect them through the early years really is troublesome.

When I was a kid my local mountain would pull your pass for this stuff. You then had to clean the deck at the lodge or the parking lot for an hour or two to get it back on the first offense. We all bitched about it, but the consequences of straight lining a slow zone quickly made it not worth it. I don’t have the answer, but know that the resorts turning blind eye doesn’t work

[old goat]

It's disappointing to me that the instructors at the places I ski--Squaw and Alpine--let their kids stop lined up across groomers, lined up across the entry to the lift mazes, have them pass us gapers en masse on narrow cattracks, never look uphill or teach the kids to look uphill before starting, etc. At best they're teaching the kids to be rude, at worst they're teaching them to be dead.

My son was a pro patroller at Squaw, skis the Chimney, etc--yesterday he was boarding with his Little Brother on blues and was more scared than he had ever been on a mountain. BTW any of you in the Truckee/North Tahoe area--Big Brothers could use some more volunteers.

[axebiker]

Best post and highlights should be sent to every patrol in the states.

So now it's the Patrol's fault, and they should be everywhere at all times playing traffic cop? Yeah...

[DasBlunt]

So now it's the Patrol's fault, and they should be everywhere at all times playing traffic cop? Yeah...

Yes........why not?


So, you think it should be a free-for-all on the slopes and only until you get randomly caught, it does not matter? That sure worked in this case, eh?


Patrol and the resort MUST take some blame for not policing the slopes for reckless speeders who take other peoples lives in danger. I hear Keystone has strict rules in place on the lower part of the mountain. Every hill should.

[axebiker]

Yes........why not?

So, you think it should be a free-for-all on the slopes and only until you get randomly caught, it does not matter? That sure worked in this case, eh?


Patrol and the resort MUST take some blame for not policing the slopes for reckless speeders who take other peoples lives in danger. I hear Keystone has strict rules in place on the lower part of the mountain. Every hill should.

Yeah...a free-for-all..hell, why not a Chinese downhill too... Maybe you could read your own thoughts into what I said a little more, moron.

Yes, someone does have to be responsible, but patrollers are NOT traffic cops. When I'm on-hill, I have 101 things to do, and chasing down speeders is not a priority, and 99% of the time, you don't see that stuff when on hill. 9/10 times, they will just argue with you that they were "completely in control" and you don't know what you're talking about. It's hard to argue. I see stuff like that from the lift a lot, but can't do much from there.

When you have hundreds/thousands of people on the hill and a shift of patrollers doing what patrollers do, it's exceedingly difficult to play cop. You can blame whoever you like but DO NOT put this on the patrol. There is a reason The Code exists. People do have to take some responsibility for their own actions...but evidently NOT in America.

There are not enough patrollers or time to play traffic cop all day. This was unfortunate, and my heart goes out to all involved - the deceased and their families, the patrollers, and the witnesses. Unfortunately, no matter how many patrollers you have on staff, you cannot say that this would have been prevented. It only takes one misguided action for this to happen. Blaming the patrol is the WRONG THING to do.

[beaterdit]

i don't know. he could clearly see the two sitting snowboarders. it didn't really appear to be a blind rollover.
and apparently, they could have gotten closer to the edge of the run (he did).
i'm sitting here thinking, fuck, Dookey really is slaying the groomers at N*.

I missed it the first time cuz it happens real fast in the boring part. it's at 1:20, and it's pretty badass (the fact that it's in this thread notwithstanding). you have to advance it frame by frame to see him bonk the bamboo. didn't really appear to be a close call for anyone.

Pretty sure you're half kidding here but this move was extremely reckless and he's lucky. Pretty ballsy and definitely badass since he pulled it off but definitely not the time or place. He actually jumped the ropeline, cutting a corner of it, he was on the far side of the bamboo when he bonked it. From the beginning of the video though you can see the roller with ski tracks going off it in the direction of the rope and it does look blind enough for a little kid to be hiding behind. At least blind enough that with all the people the dude couldn't have stopped in time. If the slightest thing had gone wrong, he could have taken someone out or spun into the trees.

[Canada1]

But, if mountain employees see someone doing something stupid, they can pull the pass and make the kid, (in this case young man) uncomfortable for an hour or two to get it back.

When my local area did this to me and my friends as a kid, we all bitched about how we were in total control, better skiers than the patrolers, etc... But, we did all slow down in those slow zones and crowds from then on.

[axebiker]

But, if mountain employees see someone doing something stupid, they can pull the pass and make the kid, (in this case young man) uncomfortable for an hour or two to get it back.

When my local area did this to me and my friends as a kid, we all bitched about how we were in total control, better skiers than the patrolers, etc... But, we did all slow down in those slow zones and crowds from then on.

There was a time... Now they just tell you to screw off, or better yet, run to their parents, who in turn complain to mgmt about how they will pull their business as well as all their friends, and while mgmt may agree with you,they will probably cave and "make it right" for the offender.

It's a battle either way. I'd love nothing more to have the time and authority to harrass the obvious ones, but I don't really have either. It's also a place where you can cause more issues than you solve...a big can of worms to be sure.

[beaterdit]

Axe I don't know how it is where you are but I was a pro for seven years in CO and if we identified a problem, we put a presence in the area and stopped the problem. Especially during Christmas week and spring break. Yeah there are 10-50s going off everywhere, of course you prioritize those but there's almost always an extra patroller to cycle through the problem areas and make some contacts.

The way we did it was contact, warn, educate. Tell them where they can go to go fast. Mark their ticket, if they get a second contact, they're done for the day. Multi day and season tickets are registered with dispatch and the next step is they're done for two weeks, then the season.

Can you catch everyone? No, but if the word gets out you mean business it goes along way toward addressing the problem.

Do I think patrol bears some of the responsibility for this accident? Not directly but it sounds like a culture of apathy toward this stuff up there and I bet that's gonna change.

[Canada1]

They've been off the mountain and lost some time. I think you guys have a very difficult job. Hopefully in those situations, the management is saying thank you to you after the tools are out of their office. Hopefully they understand it is better than the alternative of a death in this case that could mire the area in litigation for the next decade.

[powdork]

Pretty sure you're half kidding here but this move was extremely reckless and he's lucky. Pretty ballsy and definitely badass since he pulled it off but definitely not the time or place. He actually jumped the ropeline, cutting a corner of it, he was on the far side of the bamboo when he bonked it. From the beginning of the video though you can see the roller with ski tracks going off it in the direction of the rope and it does look blind enough for a little kid to be hiding behind. At least blind enough that with all the people the dude couldn't have stopped in time. If the slightest thing had gone wrong, he could have taken someone out or spun into the trees.

actually, i was being serious (but i'm certainly not convinced i'm right). from the point of view of the camera it appears as though the skier has a view of the entire zone, which is helped by the dogleg right where he's jumping. i don't think either of the boarders were in danger as he was using an inrun and lip which they weren't on. however, you are right that just a slight fuck up could go horribly wrong. something like his jacket snagging a little worse on the bamboo.


also someone mentioned the coach coming by afterward and saying "Watch out!". I'm not convinced that was the coach, but yeah, big dick move if it was.

[jonesy]

Small error margin. Eventually your % goes South, it culls some of the Morons. Watch your back!