FKS toe AFD gap?

[Toby]

I'm making a big move to FKS this winter. Never used them before. I've got a brand new (old stock) Squad and a brand new (old stock) FKS120 mounted up on a 3"x1" piece of pine.

My new Titans fit fine in the Squads. On the 120s, there's a ~1mm gap between the brand new DIN toe sole and the AFD. Pressure the cuff back and you can get maybe ~1.5mm, pressure the cuff forward and it touches. Rock the cuff and you can feel the toe rocking against the limit of motion with a definite annoying "bang".

Forward pressure is correctly set.

Measuring the delta between the AFD and the bottom of the ends of the toe wings (with no boot in) gives ~17mm for the Squads and ~19.5mm for the 120s. That's pretty rough since the toe wings are different shape and the contact points are slightly different.

So what gives? It's enough to make me want to go back to über-adjustable Sollys. There's obviously nothing I can do to make it fit?

Oh, and I tried two other boots, Solly and Strolz. Both had slightly less gap than the Titans but still noticeable and feelable when rocking.

[Toby]

Here's a photo.



That's as good a profile shot as I could take out of 4 attempts. The boot is at rest in the binding (no pressure on the cuff). Significant gap.

[rmkhead]

Looks like your SOL unless you can talk to dynafit and see if they make a thicker replaceable toe or retro fit the 180 afd to fit your 155. Marker ran into this problem trying to fit full tilt and krypton boots into the jester and griffin. They came out with thicker afd's

[Toby]

I'd be very surprised if the Titan soles aren't DIN alpine. In fact, the heels have "DIN ÖN UNI ISO" raised lettering, so they must comply. And when 3 different boots (two dedicated alpine) don't fill the gap, it makes me think there's a problem with the binding. But the binding is brand new, with no obvious damage to the AFD (i.e. it's not sunk in its mold). And there's no way to shim the AFD part of the binding, it's just not possible. I took the toe apart and there's no way to lower the arms either. And the Squad is fine, seems to be exactly the right gap (i.e. no gap, while not being forced down).

[bfree]

Can you feel the play when you're booted in, with weight on the bindings? If not, I wouldn't worry about it. Boots aren't supposed to be jammed up on the AFD's anyway, there should be a tiny gap.

[Toby]

Yes you can feel it. And now that I know it's there it'll annoy me, whether you notice it skiing on terrain or not. Last bindings were Dukes, and obviously you can adjust them for no gap. Before that Salomon, ditto. I reckon there should be as much gap as that - enough to grip a piece of paper placed between the sole and the AFD.

[bmg97]

Looks like if you got the rear to drop the toe would sit on the AFD. Is the boot in all the way ?

[Toby]

Boot's all the way in. Binding is firmly screwed down, no volcanoes (it's just soft pine). But you gave me an idea - shim the whole toe. A ~2.2mm shim (an old ruler) brought it much closer to touching. So I figure a ~2.5mm shim should suffice. It makes me wonder whether it was supposed to come with one. I will see if there's a stock Rossi shim that works, otherwise make one out of HDPE or aluminium or something.

[rmkhead]

Just because the sole is stamped DIN doesn't mean the toe is thick enough. There is a a range that boot makers can make the the soles within. Full Tilt and flexon along with Dalbello's krypton series make their soles at the bare minimum thickness. The way that toe piece works is it automaticaly adjusts the toe height/pressure. When your boot is in the binding the sole of the boot should be touching the afd.

Take the bindings to your local shop and compare them to their bindings. Explain your situation and they should be willing to help you. The shop also should have a tool to measure the toe height of the boot.

[Toby]

No shops nearby. I can measure the toe height or toe thickness with vernier calipers, or I've got a micrometer that measures 0-25mm. Anyone know the DIN toe thickness? I'm sure I saw a picture of DIN sole dimensions just recently.

Anyway, I think a shim/riser will have to do.

[Toby]

I ended up never using these binders. But I've still got them and could use them now. Anyone else come across anything similar in the last couple of years? Otherwise I will do some further testing.

[Dee Hubbs]

Looks like you're missing a riser plate under that toe piece.

[Shorty_J]

Looks like you're missing a riser plate under that toe piece.

I don't think there is a riser plate that goes there. But even if there was that won't make a difference to whether his boot touches the AFD... the AFD is attached to the rest of the toe piece regardless of what's underneath it.

[Toby]

As far as I know there was never meant to be any riser. It didn't come with one.

But as you see in my post #8, a riser does make it contact. I used a ruler as a makeshift riser. Imagine if you took away the binder heel piece altogether and just rested the boot heel on the wood. Then there's contact for sure, due to the angle of inclination of the boot sole.

I've got some P15s, P18s, FKS10s and none of them have this problem (although the FKS10s have another issue from memory - heel width too wide between the bottom of the arms?). It's just these I need to sort out.

[Ira]

all of my World cup and MFX world cup bindings have a nice little riser that the toe piece sits in...

Just sayin...

[Toby]

None of my fks155, p15, Squad 18 or fks10 have a riser apart from the plastic base (incorporating the afd). However, all the race binders' afd designs are completely different to these fks12s (wider, more substantial) and the fks10 is different again (metal, spring-loaded sliding afd).

Can anyone show me a picture of their fks12 riser? Maybe I can source one ...


Oh, and I still have the box that they came in. Proper Rossi retail box, no reason to suspect anything was missing.

[Finstah]

I don't see how putting a small riser plate under the toe piece would bring the AFD in contact with the sole of the boot. It would however negatively affect the ramp angle of the bindings. A better idea would be to find some 2mm thick boot plates (usually used to build a boot sole back up after a plane job) and use them on both the toe and heels of your boots to essentially make it thicker than DIN spec (or what Dynafit claims to be DIN spec.)

I know you said the bindings are new but old stock. Those things are 5+ years old. They haven't made FKS 120's in quite a while. Nothing wrong with that, but are you sure the adhesive AFD is still in place? I've seen those things fall off new in-the-box current FKS's more than you'd think. That would be the easiest, most logical explaination for that space.

Post up an overhead shot of your toepiece with no boot in it.

Also, the forward pressure indicator on FKS's doesn't mean much. The forward pressure of that binding is correct when you cannot rock the boot forward and create a space under the heel on your work bench. The indicator is generally beyond the little scribe mark at this point.

[Ira]

You have the dual action toes instead of the pivot toes but here is what my NIB FKS18 B130 and my World Cup MFX20 toes look like. The MFX is taller than the FKS but the FKS comes with 1 and 4mm shims to adjust things.

[Finstah]

You know the included shims with FKS bindings are just to adjust the ramp angle of the binding to suit your preference, right? They would play no role in the ski boot to toe piece interface.

[Dee Hubbs]

Are the heels mounted flat, or are they on a riser plate?

[Toby]

Heels flat, same config as all my race turntables.

Never had any shims included with any of the Squad, 15-DINners or (completely different 3-screw setup Geze toe) FKS10. I don't remember if all, any or none came in retail boxes like the 120s. All purchased from maggots except one 15 DINner off ebay.

AFDs intact (they're brand new NOS).



For those who keep talking about the ramp angle not affecting the AFD contact - two examples of exaggerated ramp angles:

Extreme negative:


Extreme positive:


Because the pivot point is on the top of the boot toe lug where the binder wings contact it, the ramp angle affects where the sole touches underneath.

Personally, I'm a big fan of flat ramp anyway and as can be seen in the original pic, the fks120s have some positive ramp. From memory, much more than my higher DIN turntables. I'm not averse to shimming. I'd prefer a factory shim than a home made shim. I'd prefer a home made shim vs. modding boot soles. I'd prefer some solution to the sloppy rocking motion. I'm thinking of setting these up for my kid, so I'd prefer any solution vs. him riding on a sloppy interface.

I never had forward pressure issues with the binders I used, despite turntables being a bit trickier to set up than other bindings I used.

Apart from this one binder I'm quite happy with turntables and mounted, bent brakes, etc, etc so I'm not a complete jong. I just fail to see what I'm doing wrong and why all the others are perfect (with their different AFD designs).

[Finstah]

If you think this issue is caused by the ramp angle of the binding then you should shim it in an extreme fashion until the top and bottom of your toe lug are wedged in the toe piece. The binding will probably ski like shit and be prone to pre-release, but you're right, you may eliminate the space you see.

Another idea is since those Rossi/Look AFDs are replaceable you could pick up some of the wider AFDs they are using on current FKS and Pivot bindings and see if that helps. Could be a cheap solution.

Edit : upon further inspection, that little half moon you can see on the back of your AFD indicates that the binding was intended to be used with Rossignols WC race plate of the time. Excuse the epic link, but this is the best image I could find of what you're missing http://www.epicski.com/t/107033/sold...-with-wc-plate

Seek out the current AFD and your problem will be fixed, or at least swap some out from your other FKSs to try. Also, be careful when you actually mount those things on some skis. The screws could be of a length intended to thread into those plates and may dimple the ski bases. Double check 'em...

[Toby]

Thanks Finstah! You seem to have solved the mystery. I don't reckon I can swap the AFDs with those from a new set. Google images shows the new AFD/base plate versions are all like my old race ones - as big as the whole metal toe base and kinda snap on the sides. The fks120 AFD fits into a step under the back of the toe and the back two screws hold it.

I'm either SOL with a useless binding, unless I can find some (preferably new-old-stock) 120 non-race-plate AFDs. Chances of that are slim. Damn.

Anyone knows if there is any Rossi contact info, like there used to be that Nick C. guy, long since gone? I do remember Rossi being hard to get tech support from, unlike some more maggot oriented companies.

[Finstah]

The FKS 140s have the same toe as your 120s, but with with the new wider AFD. Seek em out, they will work.

You're correct, the AFD from the 180 would be different.

[Ira]

Nick C moved on to the Dealer Support team. The warranty guys are Kevin and Keith for the last 25 years and Mike stepped in a couple if years ago. All good folks. Mike is a go getter.

(435) 252-3300 is the main number. Ask for warranty in Ogden. As these are old, the parts aren't on warranty, but they can help you out...