Starting a cat ski operation?

[Core Shot]

I
I was completely obsessed with snowcats and starting a snowcat biz, hence my screen name "trackhead". .

I did not know that.


I hope you get to live your dream someday.
Who knows, maybe there is a trustifarian on the board or a benevolent investor that might just be your backer in a private land lease cat operation.
If I had real money, I would certainly step forward.

[eldereldo]

The BC goverment actively promotes Cat Ski operations with what are really low lease rates on land, and a goverment established limit to the operators liability which reduces the insurance costs significantly, without that I doubt that there would be so many operations around. I don't think there is anything like that in the US, and with a lot more limited area to work in I think you are just risking your $ on something which probably has little chance of making you a decent return for all the work you have to do. Apparently this year, Powder Cowboy, which is Island Lakes second operation is not running as it couldn't get enough visitors last year to stay open. This is an operation that has been around for over 10 years and is owned by one of the biggest names in cat skiing.

If you really want to do something which might be affordable, start a yurt based, heli/snowmobile/cat accessed back country operation, a lot fewer hoops to jump thru as you don't need a motorized permit for operations, and costs are a lot lower. Isssue here is maintaining exclusive access for your guests, (if you can get there with a cat, so can snowmobilers) and get sufficient supplys in if you are snowmobile accessed.

[Joey Joe Joe Junior Shabadoo]

Listen to Trackhead. Look for private land that might work or start saving and planning for the approval process before worrying about which cat to buy.

[Crystal_Mt_Dreamin]

What about something like this? My guess is a bit limited about what they can go up, and the wear and tear might be a bitch, but maybe not?

[Trackhead]

What about something like this? My guess is a bit limited about what they can go up, and the wear and tear might be a bitch, but maybe not?

Poor PSI rating due to small track size relative to vehicle weight. The Mattrax system is upwards of $25,000. Better off buying an LMC 1500.

[Crystal_Mt_Dreamin]

Damn, was hoping maybe that driver's side ding would make it the value play

[FlakeShredder]

Sweet thread - I alway dream of running a cat operations. Not much money it I would guess from what everyone is saying - however there are a lot of outfits. Do they get tax breaks in BC? I would love to see financials for these companies.

I think there could be some pretty neat ways to set up cat operation for managing costs etc.

Anyone offloading a cat anytime soon?

[stolitonic]

best thread of the year!

[knowsam]

I know it's an old thread, but it's a good one. Why is there no cat skiing in Europe? Land tenure? Cultural? Lack of consistent snow? Just curious. BC, Alaska etc seem pretty much at capacity and Japan is having a go, but there is little if any traction (sorry) in Europe.

[Gunder]

How to make a small fortune in the ski industry... Start with a large one.

[AdironRider]

In case anyone was wondering I bought the house, but there is an old ski area on Pine Creek pass that seems like it could conceivably work. I still dream about it but trackhead was not wrong, there is a lot that goes into a snow cat and reliability seems questionable at best.

[abraham]

South of Victor? A yurt or route tow round be pretty rad there if cat skiing isn't an option

[Trackhead]

In case anyone was wondering I bought the house, but there is an old ski area on Pine Creek pass that seems like it could conceivably work. I still dream about it but trackhead was not wrong, there is a lot that goes into a snow cat and reliability seems questionable at best.

I still dream about it. This is an old thread, but I bought another snowcat in 2013 for $7,000. Painted it, sold it three weeks later for $15,000. Ha!

I tried again in 2012 and was very close to having an operation on a HUGE private ranch with unreal terrain in Utah, but again, the deal fell through, probably for the better. Bummer, because the terrain was perfect, as was the access.

I've also had a tracked Samurai since then, and a tracked ATV. Both fun and affordable. Simple maintenance with cheap parts. Options for snowcat enthusiasts who don't want the expense of a snowcat. Not as cool, but fun toys.

[Game Over]

Nice to see you 'round here again Trackhead. Always enjoyed your posts

[knowsam]

Maybe it’s the time of year, but while I think the market for a new BC/Alaska cat/heli op is pretty saturated, I’d be curious if a low budget “club style” hill might have a shot though. A handful of cheap surface lifts to great terrain, a grill with decent, simple food, and bar and cheap lodging at the bottom. Somewhere for people who want to actually ski for skiing’s sake, in good terrain and deep snow. Avy control is minimal, it’s a ski at your own risk sort of thing (maybe a poorly groomed escape road), but just old time, affordable for a family wanting to ski, skiing. I know some of the hills in NZ are struggling, but with BC’s land tenure and issuance system and proximity of some great terrain to airports, not to mention the US population – you’d think a low budget, steep and cheap sort of place could carve out a place….

[muted]

I tried again in 2012 and was very close to having an operation on a HUGE private ranch with unreal terrain in Utah, but again, the deal fell through, probably for the better. Bummer, because the terrain was perfect, as was the access.

Was it on this land? http://www.whisperridgeutah.com/home

My friends rode with them last year. Cat broke down. Since they were snowboarders, they had a long walk out. The company had no snowmobiles or spare cat to come get them. Hope they get their shit together next year.

Edit: Looks like they have 6 cats now, dang!!!!!

[skiitsbetter]

how do they make money giving free rides to washed up pros and bros?

[raisingarizona13]

It sounds like a sweet business as long as you don't need to make any real money.

[knowsam]

There must be a way to make a good living for a few people, no? Thinking about it last night, and it's not that different from what they've done at Shames - just that Shames is so far away from a population centre big enough to support it. Costs would come down even more if you forego grooming and have a 100% off-piste access lift. I'd bet closer to a bigger city (or a major airport), you could get enough traffic to keep it afloat while not getting over crowded (though I'm sure the guys at Shames may disagree with any more people...) Almost a North American La Grave, but perhaps a little more accessible for the good but not extreme skiers.

[dufferdan]

So if interested, KPow (http://www.kpow.ca) is a "temporary" car skiing operation that is being operated by the owners of Fortress Mountain Resort in Kananaskis Country in Alberta, Canada. They are using the old resort as the ski terrain while the get all their permits and rebuild the resort infrastructure. They have been operating for about four or five years. I think prices were in the 350 range for a day. They operate about 4 days a week as they don't have a ton of terrain and that allows for days where the snow can renew. I have booked two sessions for clients but both had to be cancelled due to weather. One buddy books five days a year for his clients and he loves it. Easy access from Calgary, relatively inexpensive and the terrain works for intermediates on up, with zero crowds.

Details on the website. Might be a model to use. The motivation is to keep heir licenses current while they redevelop the ski area though. I don't think they make much of any money.

[Trackhead]

Was it on this land? http://www.whisperridgeutah.com/home

My friends rode with them last year. Cat broke down. Since they were snowboarders, they had a long walk out. The company had no snowmobiles or spare cat to come get them. Hope they get their shit together next year.

Edit: Looks like they have 6 cats now, dang!!!!!

No, wasn't that land.

[Njord]

I'd focus on finding land and getting a permit first... it's not a quick processes and could take several years, particularly if you are looking at USFS lands. Finding cats is going to be the easy part after that.

[steff]

[knowsam]

I think land in Canada (BC anyway) is much easier to come by. The gov has recognised the economic value of backcountry use and seems to have lots of programs to promote it.

[cmcrawfo]

I think land in Canada (BC anyway) is much easier to come by. The gov has recognised the economic value of backcountry use and seems to have lots of programs to promote it.

Much of the land in BC's interior, particularly what would be accessible by cat is already part of other ops recreational land use permits...There are a few big heli ops who control most of the tenure here. BC government awards tenures to companies largely based on how financially viable they will be. So if you are bidding on parcel of land for a recreational permit, and another company can demonstrate that they would be more viable, then you could lose out... there was a recent cat Op locally who paired with a heli op, and are sharing tenure... I believe that was largely motivated by the fact that the larger more established heliops wanted that tenure too, and the smaller op wasn't confident that their model was strong enough independently.

Crazy to hear about powder cowboy, my impression of the industry locally was that there is such a high demand for the service that , even these half ass ops are doing ok. I have heard rumours that a local, well established cat op is up for sale.... price seemed reasonable, considering what our newest Op is putting out to establish infrastructure (without a client base).