Construction/Electrical Mags: Permit for communications wiring?

[spanky]

Background: The apartment I own is currently going through remedial construction. Since I had contractors in the unit (and it is vacant), I decided to have them run Cat6 network cabling through the apartment (in wall runs with wall jacks). Well, today the city electrical inspector comes along and says I need a permit for said "communications wiring". I also have surround sound wiring installed as well.

The job is essentially complete... all sheetrock they removed for the installation has been reinstalled and taped/spackled. Could/would this inspector force me to remove said wiring? I'm assuming the inspector just wants his ass kissed and a few of my dollars.

Is a permit really required for this type of wiring work? Do I have to show proof that a licensed electrician installed it (he did, but he was part of the contractor's crew and they claimed I had it done on my own)? Anything else to be wary of?

Oh one last thing... I did use in wall rated cat6 and speaker wire, so hopefully I'm safe there.

[MMP]

not sure about jersey but here (MA) you need a permit to run any low or line voltage cable. Even if you are a homeowner you need to install according to the national electric code. You dont need a license to pull a permit and work (like a contractor does), but you are responsible for meeting the code and getting a rough and finish inspection. See if you can pull the permit and have him inspect the finish work. Make sure your cables if exposed or where they terminate are all attached to the structure.

Lucky you didnt use zip cable for the stereo or you would be stripping it out. not rated for inside the walls.

[jgb@etree]

Regulations vary from town to town, so it all depends on local code. That said, we opened an office in Parsippany, NJ a few years back and I've never had to jump thru so many hoops to have low voltage (Cat6) work done. Permits out the ass, inspection.... ugh.

If you didn't use plenum cabling, you might end up having to pull it all out & re-run it, especially in a commercial setting or a multi unit dwelling.

G'luck.

Edit: The only possible 'bright side' would be that if you do have to re-run, you can just use the existing runs as drag lines and not have to rip the walls apart.. Unless you did something stupid like stapling, zip tying, or some other method of attaching the wiring to studs rather than just leaving it floating.

[MMP]

If you installed the wire like that^you would not pass inspection. Just be cool with the inspector. Tell him you will of course take it out and If you're not a dick, he will be cool with you pulling a permit and doing a good finish that passes final inspection. If you are belligerent, beware the man with a little power and the oppotunity to use it.

[spanky]

Thanks for the replies. What's plenum cabling? I purchased in-wall rated cat6 and 12 gauge speaker wiring. Is that any different?

Edit: I see plenum cable is used when you run the wires in air ducts. The cable I had installed was in the walls through either drilled wooden studs or the holes in the steel studs. These aren't straight runs and re-pulling through the steel studs would (I suspect) tear up the cable sheathing. I hope in-wall rated is enough.

[MMP]

plenum cable has a teflon jacket that will not melt and asphyxiate people in the event of a fire, when the ceiling is used as an air plenum return, rather than having ducted returns for the hvac system. Overkill in a house, less expensive than putting everything in pipe in a commercial building.

[RShea]

First did you talk to the contractors to see if they have followed the National Electrical Codes or if the local or state laws stricter than the NEC that they followed that? What were the contractors- electrical or some other type?

Low voltage wiring contract licenses are spreading as a requirement in a bunch of states now. Contractors of course have to pass the test and obtain a license just like a electrical contractor has to do to work most anywhere.

As for if you need plenum wiring - it depends on a few things, but basically if there are cold air returns or any type of drop ceiling that has air returns that are not ducted then you probably will need plenum wire.

As for the issue if you do have to pull the wire and redo- deal with that if and when their are no other options and the inspector demands it. Try and stay on the inspectors good side and hope that you can appease his concerns and he will allow you to permit and verify the existing stuff meets code.

If he does not then there are a few tricks that a knowledgeable cable guy can do to make the pulling of the new wiring go better - unless it is really really tight turns and sharp bends. There is a cable lubricant and some other things that the contractor that pulls the new stuff should know about. But hopefully it will not come to that.

[Tippster]

The inspector came after the sheet rock was up and mudded? Did I read that right? How the fuck was he gonna "inspect" anything?

[Tuckerman]

Its been a few years but I use to run cable crews all over the north east for Bank of America and have never once heard of a inspection? Maybe BOA paid a bunch of money up front.

off topic
The only issues I had was some places like Manhattan, long Island, and North Joisey with unions. For some reason Electricians in those area think that they should also be data cable installers. We would bring in crews any ways to baby sit unionised electricians it was uncomfortable. The cable crew did not want to step on toes I guess these unions guys have been know to rip new shit out of wall and or slash tires etc. I thorough they were just being pussies. Who knows

[jgb@etree]

Usually the union requirement is building specific. Due to union regulations, some buildings will require union (IBEW Local 3 or CWA in NYC) labor, which of course doubles the price of the job. CWA guys are usually slightly better and a little less expensive than IBEW. These buildings also typically have insane insurance requirements - $2-4 mil in coverage before building managment will let the crew enter the building.

[spanky]

The inspector came after the sheet rock was up and mudded? Did I read that right? How the fuck was he gonna "inspect" anything?

Very long story, but to keep it short... This was supposed to be the "final" electrical.

I went to construction office today and guess what... The inspector was not in. I was told to "try again" on Monday.

[spanky]

First did you talk to the contractors to see if they have followed the National Electrical Codes or if the local or state laws stricter than the NEC that they followed that? What were the contractors- electrical or some other type?

Low voltage wiring contract licenses are spreading as a requirement in a bunch of states now. Contractors of course have to pass the test and obtain a license just like a electrical contractor has to do to work most anywhere.

As for if you need plenum wiring - it depends on a few things, but basically if there are cold air returns or any type of drop ceiling that has air returns that are not ducted then you probably will need plenum wire.

As for the issue if you do have to pull the wire and redo- deal with that if and when their are no other options and the inspector demands it. Try and stay on the inspectors good side and hope that you can appease his concerns and he will allow you to permit and verify the existing stuff meets code.

If he does not then there are a few tricks that a knowledgeable cable guy can do to make the pulling of the new wiring go better - unless it is really really tight turns and sharp bends. There is a cable lubricant and some other things that the contractor that pulls the new stuff should know about. But hopefully it will not come to that.

It was a licensed electrician who installed the wiring. The forced air HVAC system has one large ducted return (a 16x20 opening) in the hallway right outside the utility closed (keep in mind this is an apartment). There are no other cold air returns, let alone non-ducted returns.

Here are are the cables I used:
http://www.cablestogo.com/product.as...3531&sku=32593
http://www.cablestogo.com/product.as...=329&sku=43132

[MMP]

The cable you used is not plenum rated. (The flame-retardant white PVC jacket helps to diminish the potential of fire spreading between floors.-From your link)

PVC is not teflon

Where I live the permits for low voltage are a shakedown to increase municipal revenues. Try dealing with the fire department on permit & inspection fees.

My best guess (and experience) is that if you finish the job neatly and in accordance with the codes (local, state, national), and pull a permit, you will be good to go.

Snaking the wires after the fact will do nothing to improve the quality of the job, and the wiring that he sees (does it terminate in a single or double gang box or does it poke through a hole in the sheetrock?) will give him an indication of the quality of your work.

If an electrician did it, see if he can add the low voltage to his original permit.

[Rico in Flag]

I'm probably walking into a shitstorm admitting this, but I am a building inspector for my local municipality. But here goes...

First of all, every jurisdiction is different. And second every building inspector is different. My jurisdiction does not require a permit for communicatons wiring, though it is covered ad nauseum in the NEC. Apparently your town requires a permit. GET IT. Then start working with the inspector to find a solution to satisfy his concerns. It would be unlikely that he would require you to tear off large amounts of drywall.

I went to construction office today and guess what... The inspector was not in. I was told to "try again" on Monday.

That sucks. Many municipalities are on reduced hours since permits(revenues) are way down.

Just be cool with the inspector. Tell him you will of course take it out and If you're not a dick, he will be cool with you pulling a permit and doing a good finish that passes final inspection.

Quoted for truth. Be cool and be smart, but don't play dumb. Nothing annoys more than a person who plays dumb and expects forgiveness.

How the fuck was he gonna "inspect" anything?

True enough. Wire runs are wire runs. Assuming no splices were made in concealed spaces. That WOULD be stupid.

It was a licensed electrician who installed the wiring.

If I was told this, it wouldn't mean shit to me. I've seen plenty of awful work done by so-called "licensed" contractors.

The forced air HVAC system has one large ducted return (a 16x20 opening) in the hallway right outside the utility closed (keep in mind this is an apartment). There are no other cold air returns, let alone non-ducted returns.

This was my first concern. If indeed there are no wires pulled through the duct, then no worries. Plenum rated wire not required.

Where I live the permits for low voltage are a shakedown to increase municipal revenues.

Sadly true in this day and age of decreased revenues.

And finally, my second concern,

and the wiring that he sees (does it terminate in a single or double gang box or does it poke through a hole in the sheetrock?) will give him an indication of the quality of your work.

MagicMtnPinhead is on to something here. Since your dwelling is an "apartment" every termination will need to be in a box. I should say, any termination in a wall that adjoins your neighbor, and your ceiling. And not just any box, but a fire rated box. 2 hour rated at least. And that goes for any SPEAKERS located in the ceiling, like surround sound stuff that I frequently see. If you have speakers in your ceiling, they will most likely have to be in a rated box also.

Good luck. Building inspectors aren't all bad. At least I'm not.

If you are belligerent, beware the man with a little power and the oppotunity to use it.

This made me laugh.

[TWINS]

What he said.^^ I install LV all the time while doing remodels/C10 contractor.Inspectors are like women.Some are easy and some are a pain in the ass.Speak to the inspector and see what he wants done.Be nice,small talk,thank him for helping you

[spanky]

Thanks all for the advice. Long story short... even though I claimed to install the wiring, the electrical inspector insisted I have either a licensed electrician or an exempt contractor fill out the permit form and "sign off" that the job was done to code... evidently, you need a permit in this town to run LV wiring if you live in a multiple dwelling building (which I do). The inspector allowed the electrician on our job to submit the permit for the work that i did.

We got our CO without any problems!