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  1. #1401
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
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    Nobody was asking, but I still wanted to finish the thought.....

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    focus.

  2. #1402
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    Oct 2002
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    my own little world
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    4FRNT Renegade ~ Hand built in SLC.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hughwindlip View Post
    I'd say less.

    But I was skiing it in blower pow at golden alpine holidays most of the time.

    Also skied a couple days at Whistler, K Horse and Cypress... I'd say it's less input than the older heavier 186 green black. Pretty close though.

    It's a lot lighter so that plays a big part. I have MTN Tech bindings brakeless on the 191 and had shifts on the 186 so that could make a difference.

    Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk
    With the exception of untracked powder, skis like the Renegade require quite a bit of steering, IMO. Which isn’t to say they require more force, just the opposite.... they just require more attention. E.g. they’ll pivot until you stop pivoting them, etc.

    So.... less input in terms of force....more input in terms of attention, if that makes any sense. Hard to just relax and ride them out of a choppy line when you’re tired.

    As to comparing the 191 to the 186, the 191 took a little bit more input to move them across the fall line, but required less of a light touch to keep them where you wanted them. Generally, they behaved and were less prone to oversteering or nervousness. The 196 is still on the other side of the spectrum, though I think the 191 might be a touch smoother (I’ll A/B them tomorrow, I think, if we get snow). This is comparing the white room owls to the new 191. I missed all the iterations in between that included vibeveil and other witchcraft infused by Slovenian factory workers.
    Last edited by Mustonen; 02-03-2021 at 02:46 PM.
    focus.

  3. #1403
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
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    Stumptown
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    6,498

    4FRNT Renegade ~ Hand built in SLC.

    I don’t think they were ever made in China. Were made in the White Room in Utah forever, then J Lev moved them to Canadia. 4FRNT made the majority of their skis at the Elan factory in Slovenia.

  4. #1404
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    Oct 2002
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    my own little world
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    I’m just talking shit. “Witchcraft infused by Slovenian factory workers” has a better ring to it, though.
    focus.

  5. #1405
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mustonen View Post
    I’m just talking shit. “Witchcraft infused by Slovenian factory workers” has a better ring to it, though.
    Definitely has an old world magic feel for sure

  6. #1406
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    2,084
    Quote Originally Posted by Mustonen View Post
    I’m just talking shit. “Witchcraft infused by Slovenian factory workers” has a better ring to it, though.
    Quote Originally Posted by Supermoon View Post
    Definitely has an old world magic feel for sure
    Yeah, my knee feels that magic on the daily

  7. #1407
    Join Date
    Jan 2019
    Location
    Mid-tomahawk
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    1,002
    Lost an OG 186 today. Skiing a line that fed into a slight gully, caught a shark and ski ejected. I tumbled a little, my sluff caught up, and the ski was gone. 2+ hours of probing with no luck. Guess I'll just have to go back in the spring and hope.

    Pretty gutted.

  8. #1408
    Join Date
    Jun 2018
    Location
    ahead
    Posts
    73
    Any Renegade owners also ski the Kye 120 / Uptrack Massif (another 123mm 4FRNT ski from years past)? Trying to understand the differences, as I've only been on the Massif.

  9. #1409
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAB View Post
    Lost an OG 186 today. Skiing a line that fed into a slight gully, caught a shark and ski ejected. I tumbled a little, my sluff caught up, and the ski was gone. 2+ hours of probing with no luck. Guess I'll just have to go back in the spring and hope.

    Pretty gutted.
    ++vibes++

    I’ve stopped skiing my OG... they’re still in good shape, cosmetically and otherwise, in spite of probably around 200+ days (many of them partial).

    Lots of good memories, and at this point I’m saving them as wall art. I wish the Hoji sig hadn’t worn off about 20 minutes after getting them.
    focus.

  10. #1410
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    Oct 2002
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    my own little world
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    4FRNT Renegade ~ Hand built in SLC.

    I’m really digging the 191. Partially, I wasn’t really clicking with my 196.... but for me, the 191 was slashy and managed weird/variable/heavy/smooth snow without giving up much. No high speeds last night and the 196 might still be better on steep/deep/long pitches, but that’s something I’m rarely fortunate enough to encounter.

    Anybody want a pretty minty pair of 196 owls? One mount (pretty sure) for pivots at 295 BSL. Make an offer.
    Last edited by Mustonen; 02-05-2021 at 06:55 AM.
    focus.

  11. #1411
    Join Date
    Jul 2019
    Posts
    22
    Got out for the first time on the 191’s today. Stupid fun afternoon, these things are rocket ships.

    Having skied the 186’s for so long, it is strange being on a longer but significantly lighter renegade. Less weight to toss around, but the longer effective edge is clearly noticeable when trying to flow through a mogul field. Too early to tell how they manage in tighter spaces.

    I do think that the factory tune (or lack there of) makes the ski hookier than my old pair. Will see how it plays out over the next few days and some much needed edge work.

    Also, they net out at just below 10lbs on a baggage scale with shifts.

  12. #1412
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    298
    Got a couple days in on the new 191 rens. Expectations are high on these given that still ski my 186 EHPs a ton, and love the 190 Ravens as my winter BC ski.

    Had a decent amount of new snow up in Idaho, so a pretty good first few days to try them out. Maybe I need to de-tune the tips and tails some (per tupp's note above) because I also found them surprisingly hooky, or at least harder to slash/slarve than the ehp's and ravens. They are also much more rockered and felt pretty tippy forward and backward. I definitely need to ski em more and hopefully get used to them, but not as intuitive out of the gate. I'll say that despite the lower weight vs the early versions, the tail is still pretty strong. (I had the 186 owls way back when.) Tips are really splayed though, and seemed to contribute to getting tipped forward in heavier snow. BTW, mounted em with inserts with alpine bindings at 6mm behind true center, Dyna inserts ~5mm further back (haven't skied em with Dynas yet).

    These also just make me frustrated that 4frnt isn't considering an EHP re-release or update. I get that they want to move forward. Hoji prob also has a big say, and re-releasing may undermine all the refinements with the hoji/ren over the last 10 years. But with most of their line-up going lighter (including the dev) and more BC oriented, why not a heavier frontside charger? I really just jive with the EHPs bullet nose, flat camber, low rocker., super straight What's next closest to EHP? Early days still, but I feel the Raven skis closer to it than the new Ren does.

  13. #1413
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    SW, CO
    Posts
    743
    Quote Originally Posted by HAB View Post
    Lost an OG 186 today. Skiing a line that fed into a slight gully, caught a shark and ski ejected. I tumbled a little, my sluff caught up, and the ski was gone. 2+ hours of probing with no luck. Guess I'll just have to go back in the spring and hope.

    Pretty gutted.
    I'm really wishing I hadn't opened this thread now. I don't think I've ever felt someone else losing a ski like this before. Good luck finding that old beauty come spring.

  14. #1414
    Join Date
    Jan 2019
    Location
    Mid-tomahawk
    Posts
    1,002
    Quote Originally Posted by ASmileyFace View Post
    I'm really wishing I hadn't opened this thread now. I don't think I've ever felt someone else losing a ski like this before. Good luck finding that old beauty come spring.
    Thanks man. Spent a long time feeling like an asshole about it, but really don't think there's much else I could have done. These things just happen sometimes.

    The good news is that it should be pretty easy to get to once things melt out. I've got hope.

  15. #1415
    Join Date
    Jul 2019
    Posts
    22
    Agree 100% with these comments.

    Hookier, stronger than expected tails, and if I was bigger (I'm 5'9) they would feel a little tippy in the front - only noticeable on flatter pillow landings. With that said they've been fun and once I get them tuned I still have high hopes. Mounted on the line ~89cm from the tail I think, could potentially move backwards.

    Also, I find these more versatile than the 186's due to the shorter turning radius and longer effective edge. These are likely more fun in low tide crud, and in these situations the 'hooky' tips and tails give you more control than you'd expect for a ski of this shape.

    For a touring specific design these skis probably have the worst skin retention of any ski I've owned. I'm really tempted to filed a notch into the rubber tail or add a bit of grip tape to the tails.... any ideas?

    Quote Originally Posted by m104da View Post
    Got a couple days in on the new 191 rens. Expectations are high on these given that still ski my 186 EHPs a ton, and love the 190 Ravens as my winter BC ski.

    Had a decent amount of new snow up in Idaho, so a pretty good first few days to try them out. Maybe I need to de-tune the tips and tails some (per tupp's note above) because I also found them surprisingly hooky, or at least harder to slash/slarve than the ehp's and ravens. They are also much more rockered and felt pretty tippy forward and backward. I definitely need to ski em more and hopefully get used to them, but not as intuitive out of the gate. I'll say that despite the lower weight vs the early versions, the tail is still pretty strong. (I had the 186 owls way back when.) Tips are really splayed though, and seemed to contribute to getting tipped forward in heavier snow. BTW, mounted em with inserts with alpine bindings at 6mm behind true center, Dyna inserts ~5mm further back (haven't skied em with Dynas yet).

    These also just make me frustrated that 4frnt isn't considering an EHP re-release or update. I get that they want to move forward. Hoji prob also has a big say, and re-releasing may undermine all the refinements with the hoji/ren over the last 10 years. But with most of their line-up going lighter (including the dev) and more BC oriented, why not a heavier frontside charger? I really just jive with the EHPs bullet nose, flat camber, low rocker., super straight What's next closest to EHP? Early days still, but I feel the Raven skis closer to it than the new Ren does.

  16. #1416
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    298
    ^^^Interesting. On the skin question, yeah best I think is dremmeling a notch in the tail. I keep meaning to do that on my Ravens since the clips pops off every once in a while. I can see the Rens needing the same given more tail rocker and splay
    Oh, and above I meant mounted just over 6cm back from true center, which also puts them around 89cm from tail. I kinda wished I had mounted back further. But after putting in the Dyna inserts I'd need the additional alpine mount to be like 2+ cm further back. Still may be worth a try if I don't grow to jive with them
    BTW, 6" morning at local mtn today. Took out the EHPs - they just f-ing rip everything... steeps, hyper tight trees, moguls. F! I need to hoard more of these!

  17. #1417
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    Huntsville, UT
    Posts
    165
    Regarding skin retention- that black rubber section is meant to be notched out for a tail clip. I just used a sharp leatherman knife but Dremel will work fine

  18. #1418
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Squamish, BC
    Posts
    791
    Quote Originally Posted by JKlompus View Post
    Regarding skin retention- that black rubber section is meant to be notched out for a tail clip. I just used a sharp leatherman knife but Dremel will work fine
    Doesn’t everyone do this with every ski that walks? Serious question. I just assumed so.

  19. #1419
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    298
    Quote Originally Posted by Judo Chop! View Post
    Doesn’t everyone do this with every ski that walks? Serious question. I just assumed so.
    Probably should. Easy enough with the plastic tails. My ravens tho hold the skins surprisingly well so notching is still on my to-do list 2+ years later
    Back to the Rens, where I was really expecting that the new Rens would solve the final slot in my quiver (including being the ski for April AK trip) and get me to stop dicking around with new skis, now I'm totally up in the air again. I need to ski the Rens more, but they need rarified conditions to truly test... I'm only going to frustrate myself more by getting bucked around on em in a mogul field! But now I got staring at the Protest which looks more like a big EHP than the Ren seems to be... Madness

  20. #1420
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    Boston
    Posts
    3,727
    M104da what’s your BSL? About to unload some cheap OG 188 protests on GS. Currently mounted 295 bsl with jesters.

  21. #1421
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    298
    Quote Originally Posted by Self Jupiter View Post
    M104da what’s your BSL? About to unload some cheap OG 188 protests on GS. Currently mounted 295 bsl with jesters.
    Interested for sure. I’m 314. What binders were on them? Thx

  22. #1422
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    Boston
    Posts
    3,727
    Quote Originally Posted by m104da View Post
    Interested for sure. I’m 314. What binders were on them? Thx
    Sent to you a PM

  23. #1423
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    298
    Quick update on the new 191 Rens... I did de-tune them (both tips and tails) and it helped alot. Didn't hook, much easier to bring them around and also throw em sideways. Skied them hard in soft but cut-up steeps, gullies and moguls at A Basin and they performed admirably. Given the more width and more shovel, they don't slash as quick as the EHP. I have an AK trip in April and think the Rens will be perfect - maneuverable enough for entrances, and then perfect for big open lines. But my home terrain is more steep tight trees, and this is where I feel the Protest may hold the edge.
    This most likely ends with me just +1 on the quiver!

  24. #1424
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Squamish, BC
    Posts
    791
    fwiw, if your rens (or any hoji ski) is hooky... that's weird. Check that bases are flat.
    I got some Ravens a few years ago that were suuuper hooky. Turned out they were edge-high from the factory and a proper tune totally changed them for the better.

  25. #1425
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    298
    ^^^Interesting thx Judo Chop, will check... and need to wax em while at it

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