4FRNT Renegade ~ Hand built in SLC.

[Supermoon]

I'm biased, FWIW, but the thing I love about the Rens and the Hojis is the reflect tech. I always have more confidence on them knowing when I throw them over you don't get the same hookiness you get on other RC skis.

[Brianskis]

PSA...

I have a couple new 12/13 186 and 196 Renegades to get rid off...

I love these things and have a pair of 11/12's in the 196 that will be hard to ever replace as my new snow/soft snow crusher.

$439 andf I'll split shipping with you...

PM Me if your interested...

[gaijin]

... the thing I love about the Rens and the Hojis is the reflect tech.

The reverse camber profile matching the sidecut is the most underrated design in the ski industry. Why 4FRNT is the only company doing it is far, far beyond me. After 30-something years skiing, I got on the Ren and was dumbfounded at the intuitiveness.

It's already in its sweet spot. And it's stiff. Every ounce of energy you expend from there is simply directed towards enjoying that, as opposed to working to create it at lower speeds or maintain it at higher speeds. You can float it like a feather and get a response or you can hammer it down and know it'll be there. (Both?)

All of you guys wondering if this ski is for you need to man-up and try it. If these numbers make sense to you on paper, then trust your instinct. You already know how it skis.

And demoing isn't going to cut it. You'll spend your first 5 days simply getting better and re-discovering your home mountain. Last winter was my best ever. Fastest. Cleanest. Most confident. After all those years racing and competing it's like a whole new sport now. I had no idea that I'd be skiing forests this fast as a middle-aged father of two. It makes me want to compete again.

[kc_7777]

All of you guys wondering if this ski is for you need to man-up and try it. If these numbers make sense to you on paper, then trust your instinct. You already know how it skis. And demoing isn't going to cut it. You'll spend your first 5 days simply getting better and re-discovering your home mountain. Last winter was my best ever. Fastest. Cleanest. Most confident. After all those years racing and competing it's like a whole new sport now. I had no idea that I'd be skiing forests this fast as a middle-aged father of two. It makes me want to compete again.

Alright. Gaijin you are speaking directly to me. I am taking a reduced teaching load next Winter term (only teaching Mon and Tues all winter - just to ski my ass off). My 16 yr punk kid was kicking my ass down Gabl's at Baker on his Bibbys at the end of this season.

Time to crush him with some Rens.

So I am gonna buy a pair of 12/13 186's in the next week or so.

I will be mounting the Rens over the summer.....don't shoot me for asking this but I have been burned on my Hoji mount point. When I got my Hojis this year I was so excited that I did not even measure, I just mounted them at the little arrow cause I thought that 4FRNT was so smart (they invented ReflectTech so they have to be!) and never thought they would ever f up their mount points.

First, the 187 Hoji mount story.....for some reason the recommended mount point (little arrow on side of the Hoji ski) on the 12/13 187 Hoji's measures farther back than on the 195 Hojis.....from what I know (195 Hoji data came from tgr....187 Hoji data is from my own 187 Hojis):

195 Hoji straight pull tip-to-tail is 194cm, therefore the centerline is 97cm from tail, and on the 195Hoji the recommended mount point (arrow) is 91cm from tail (97 center - 91 tail = -6 from center).

But.....

187 Hoji straight pull tip-to-tail is 185cm, therefore the centerline is 92.5cm from tail, but the 187 Hoji recommended mount point (arrow) is 85cm from the tail (92.5 center - 85 cm tail = -7.5 from center).

I first mounted my 187 Hojis at the arrow (-7.5). But once I figured out I was at -7.5 I redrilled the Hojis at +2, or -5.5cm from center = 87 cm tail (92.5 center - 87 tail = 5.5 back). I liked the Hojis at -7.5, but love them at -5.5.

Anyway, this is not about the Hoji mount point - but can anyone explain the 187 Hoji rec mount at -7.5??? Is there a reason or is it just that every ski company screws this up?

Re the 186 Ren mount point.

I will be mounting these 186 Rens with Sollyfits, using them as a Baker sidecountry ski and an inbounds ski on deeper days.

From what I have read the 186 Ren measures 185 and its sweet spot is 87 cm from tail (ie -5.5). Is this true?

Just wondering where the rec mount shows on the Ren ski (if any) and if it is messed up like the 187 Hoji arrow.

I want to CONFIRM that 87cm from tail is the sweet spot on the 186 12/13 Rens? Lemme know where your 186 Rens are mounted (from tail)? .......12/13 186 Rens....87 tail right? I do not want to remount these ever.

I have all summer to read these replies so let me have it.

Thx.

K

[Supermoon]

No arrow on the Rens as the sidewalls are branded on by hand. You'll just have to use a tape.

[gaijin]

4FRNT has 3 recommended mounting points for you to choose based on your style/instinct. 86-88cm from the tail.

I don't even have an arrow on my '12/'13s. I'm pretty sure everyone is expected to measure for themselves. 87cm from the tail is where I am mounted and have zero desire to change that. My shin rests on the front of my boot for the sweet spot but I don't have to drive the tongue- I'm still centered. Ankle flexes result in powerful alterations.

I'm 5'9" 160/165lbs. 25.5 Lange rs130 on STH 16. 90% of my time is spent in the fresh forests of Japan. I honestly forget it's on my feet it's so dialed. It's an instant cult-following ski. It'll never get old, just better as the maple ages and becomes harder ... That's why they chose to use it.

(This is going to be a long summer of remembering last February.)

[shuddering-voice-to-self] You have got to slow down. You're not supposed to be able to open it up like that in the forest. You have kids. Don't hit a fucking tree and don't tell your wife how today was. Don't tell her about that 40ft air you threw into your recovery because it was the easy thing to do at the time. This ski is insane, but don't tell her that. It's JUST FINE.[/shuddering-voice-to-self]

[D(C)]

Alright. Gaijin you are speaking directly to me. I am taking a reduced teaching load next Winter term (only teaching Mon and Tues all winter - just to ski my ass off). My 16 yr punk kid was kicking my ass down Gabl's at Baker on his Bibbys at the end of this season.

Time to crush him with some Rens.

So I am gonna buy a pair of 12/13 186's in the next week or so.

I will be mounting the Rens over the summer.....don't shoot me for asking this but I have been burned on my Hoji mount point. When I got my Hojis this year I was so excited that I did not even measure, I just mounted them at the little arrow cause I thought that 4FRNT was so smart (they invented ReflectTech so they have to be!) and never thought they would ever f up their mount points.

First, the 187 Hoji mount story.....for some reason the recommended mount point (little arrow on side of the Hoji ski) on the 12/13 187 Hoji's measures farther back than on the 195 Hojis.....from what I know (195 Hoji data came from tgr....187 Hoji data is from my own 187 Hojis):

195 Hoji straight pull tip-to-tail is 194cm, therefore the centerline is 97cm from tail, and on the 195Hoji the recommended mount point (arrow) is 91cm from tail (97 center - 91 tail = -6 from center).

But.....

187 Hoji straight pull tip-to-tail is 185cm, therefore the centerline is 92.5cm from tail, but the 187 Hoji recommended mount point (arrow) is 85cm from the tail (92.5 center - 85 cm tail = -7.5 from center).

I first mounted my 187 Hojis at the arrow (-7.5). But once I figured out I was at -7.5 I redrilled the Hojis at +2, or -5.5cm from center = 87 cm tail (92.5 center - 87 tail = 5.5 back). I liked the Hojis at -7.5, but love them at -5.5.

Anyway, this is not about the Hoji mount point - but can anyone explain the 187 Hoji rec mount at -7.5??? Is there a reason or is it just that every ski company screws this up?

Re the 186 Ren mount point.

I will be mounting these 186 Rens with Sollyfits, using them as a Baker sidecountry ski and an inbounds ski on deeper days.

From what I have read the 186 Ren measures 185 and its sweet spot is 87 cm from tail (ie -5.5). Is this true?

Just wondering where the rec mount shows on the Ren ski (if any) and if it is messed up like the 187 Hoji arrow.

I want to CONFIRM that 87cm from tail is the sweet spot on the 186 12/13 Rens? Lemme know where your 186 Rens are mounted (from tail)? .......12/13 186 Rens....87 tail right? I do not want to remount these ever.

I have all summer to read these replies so let me have it.

Thx.

K

From what I recall, you prefer a forward mount. Go 88 from the tail. 87 feels more traditional and requires strong driving of the tips for turn initiation. 88 is more neutral and surfy but still charges. Both places are within the design of the ski.

[kc_7777]

Thanks Gaijin and D(C),

Gaijin - when you speak like that about the Rens.....makes we want them even more.

Got some of the STH 14s from SAC for $119 a while back......pulling the trigger on 186 Rens as we speak.....$479 all in from 4FRNT or a great deal from Brianskis at $439 + 1/2 ship. Basically $600US for new 12/13 Rens and new STH 14s is a pretty good deal. That is like getting skis/bindings for $535 + taxes in Canada!

Gotta say I am pretty excited for next year. I remember getting in trouble at Baker for skiing out of control when I first got my Hojis, ripping through crowds at mach speeds on a busy weekend. The speed police caught me at the bottom and said that I was going way too fast and was out of control. I just laughed and said it was the skis fault. Usually Baker is usually pretty mellow about that kind of stuff.

Anyway.....the Rens will make that more of a problem I am sure.

Here is my other "first world" problem....if I own Rens and Hojis.....will I ever ski my Bibbys in soft snow?

K

[Bird Blaster]

If you like "forward" skis - mount the ren @88 from the tail. I found it WAY to forward and went 86. I still felt like they didn't have much up front and just went to 196. Even those I mounted a bit back from the rec., and went 90.5 from the tail.

I think it all depends on how you like to ski. The ren will work.

[Lindahl]

If you like "forward" skis - mount the ren @88 from the tail. I found it WAY to forward and went 86. I still felt like they didn't have much up front and just went to 196. Even those I mounted a bit back from the rec., and went 90.5 from the tail.

That's more a testament to the downside of a reverse camber design. The stiffness of the Ren helps, but the fore-aft balance can be trickier due to a lack of fore-aft balance points (camber). On the other end, the single balance point in the middle makes it pivot much easier in all conditions, and it'll run faster with less drag. Kind of depends on what you want out of a ski - whether or not the Ren is the right choice. In my opinion, when at the limit of one's skill level, the fore-aft balance is a trickier for an expert to get right, than pivoting, ESPECIALLY in fresh snow, and ESPECIALLY when hucking.

That's my 2 cents after trying a Ren. Not for me, but I can see how others like it (especially Hoji, who has spent a lot of time on the TLT5s - you HAVE to have your fore-aft balance perfect to charge in those). Just something to keep in mind - it's still a good ski, and I definitely appreciated its pros, but like any ski design, it has cons as well. You just need to figure out what set of pros and cons work best for you. We should feel lucky to have such variety!

[kc_7777]

From what I recall, you prefer a forward mount. Go 88 from the tail. 87 feels more traditional and requires strong driving of the tips for turn initiation. 88 is more neutral and surfy but still charges. Both places are within the design of the ski.

So, got a great deal on 186 Rens from Brian at Spokane Alpine Haus. He is shipping them in to Sumas, WA at a price slightly better than buying direct from 4FRNT at 40% off. Super easy to deal with. He also checked the rocker profiles to ensure they are both good. thanks.

Re the mount points.....my university students were writing a 3 hour midterm yesterday.....so I did some research. I re-read this entire thread. Holy crap is it long.

D(C) - I hear ya on the 88 mount, and my centered stance (can ski 'em but do not prefer skis with long shovels/tips mounted at -10 to -12 ie Dynastar LPs and Cochises....I always feel better on skis with -5 to - 6 mounts).

I was wondering - I think the 12/13 Rens have a bit more tip rocker, maybe that is why rec mounts at 87 (vs first couple of years 10/11 and 11/12 at 88)?

And I saw this quote from 4FRNT in this thread:

"Adding on here with the updated binding mount recommendations that Hoji sent out this morning: Here are the details for his updated preferred Renegade mounting position of -6 cm behind true ski center:
Renegade 186 mount at: 87 cm from the end of the tail.
Renegade 196 mount at 92 cm from the end of the tail.
Hoji: The reason my mounting position preference changed stems from ski touring performance: I mounted my pair of Renegades for touring 1 cm back to a accommodate for kick turns while skinning. I ended up skiing on my touring setup 90% of last season and greatly enjoyed them mounted at this new position of -6 cm. I want to share this info with Renegade customers. "


Then I emailed 4FRNT yesterday and asked them where Hoji is skiing them and what the rec mount point is on 186 Rens (cause I have found can never do enough research):

Quick response received this morning:


Keith,

The recommended mount points on all the signature series have been determined by the athletes. The Renegade and the HOJI are Eric's babies. The YLE was conceived by Wiley himself, including the dimensions and recommended mount point. The CODY is the same way. Our "Rider Owned Rider Inspired" motto isn't just rhetoric or image, it is who we are and the why behind the skis. When we produce a ski there is always a purpose and a story behind it and we lay it all on the table for anyone to see. We don't overbuild skis for our team and underbuild skis for consumers and we certainly want people skiing the skis the way that we have found best. The mount point on the Renegade is 87 cm from the tail. However, this being said, we more than anyone recognize that not everybody skis the same way or wants the same thing out of a certain ski. We encourage creativity and experimentation as we were born from the very same spirit. If you want to mount the skis where HOJI mounts them this is 87 cm from the tail.

Happy shredding,

Likely gonna go 87. Maybe 87.5....or 87.75....or 88? Ha. Just fun to overthink skis. I will get them first and stand on them for a bit and see what looks/feels right. Either 87 or 88 will be good.

[|K_M|]

Good call on alpine haus, the dudes there are all super rad and thats where I grabbed my pair when I first got em. Speaking of that, I'm going to shamelessly drop this link to a sale thread of 196 renegades into here, because I think it might help it get a bit more attention-
http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/s...uides-BD-skins
thanks for looking, sorry if this pisses anyone off just trying to spread the stoke on to someone else and have money for some boot/ski shit I need to do!

[kc_7777]

Went down to the border and picked up my 2012/13 186 Renegades today.

Wow are they nice. Burly flex (but it did not scare me). I am pretty excited.

Honestly though, they look so sweet I can't see me skiing my Hojis in soft snow.....or my Bibbys for that matter.

Love the Certificate of Birth registration that comes with them.....#837



Here they are beside my 187 Hojis (Hojis mounted at -5.5cm, 87cm from tail):



The Ren rocker profile looks great.....thanks Brian from Spokane Alpinehaus:

[Bird Blaster]

congrats man! you will love them

I wouldn't mind seeing a rocker comparison shot.

[kc_7777]

I wouldn't mind seeing a rocker comparison shot.

For you BB.....187 Hojis on left, 186 Rens on the right:

[Bird Blaster]

Cool thanks!!

[ClarkleberryFinn]

Anyone able to compare these to 190 Bibbys? Specifically, are they as good/versatile in allround (crud, wind/sun crust, 20-30cms on junk, deep pow, tracked pow, old consolidated pow, corn, windscoured entrances, plenty of groomers/cat tracks in between stashes, etc - often a bit of everything in the same day) Euro conditions?

I LOVE my Bibbys for 90% of ski days (it's only when touring or everything is super hard frozen/windscoured that I bring my other skis out), but after 3 seasons they're pretty beat. Only thing I dislike about them is that once in a while, while driving the tips in really deep snow, there's a bit of a fold/hinge point, and I have to back off a bit; a stiff ski already in the sweet spot makes sense to me.

Very tempted by the new Bibbys, but with a Japan trip in the offing this could be as good a time as any to try a full reverse camber/more tapered ski... I need something that handles firm snow too though rather than soft snow specific.

5 foot 9, 75kg, not the best skier in the world but happy anywhere on the hill unless there's mandatory hucks. I like to open it up and surf out bigger turns whenever I get the chance, but on steep techy stuff/funky snow keep the speed down a bit.

[Supermoon]

Never skied the Bibbys, but I can definitely say I have never hinged the tips on my Rens. When I was on CRJs a lot I would get that feeling at high speeds in crud, but not on the Rens. I also tend to ski them a lot more centered than I would a camber ski, so that may have something to do with it as well.

[D(C)]

Anyone able to compare these to 190 Bibbys? Specifically, are they as good/versatile in allround (crud, wind/sun crust, 20-30cms on junk, deep pow, tracked pow, old consolidated pow, corn, windscoured entrances, plenty of groomers/cat tracks in between stashes, etc - often a bit of everything in the same day) Euro conditions?

I LOVE my Bibbys for 90% of ski days (it's only when touring or everything is super hard frozen/windscoured that I bring my other skis out), but after 3 seasons they're pretty beat. Only thing I dislike about them is that once in a while, while driving the tips in really deep snow, there's a bit of a fold/hinge point, and I have to back off a bit; a stiff ski already in the sweet spot makes sense to me.

Very tempted by the new Bibbys, but with a Japan trip in the offing this could be as good a time as any to try a full reverse camber/more tapered ski... I need something that handles firm snow too though rather than soft snow specific.

5 foot 9, 75kg, not the best skier in the world but happy anywhere on the hill unless there's mandatory hucks. I like to open it up and surf out bigger turns whenever I get the chance, but on steep techy stuff/funky snow keep the speed down a bit.

I've skied both 190 Bibbys and 186 Renegades extensively. They're very different skis. The Bibbys are instantly intuitive and ski like a ski that has camber and a long contact length in variable snow. They're stable and forgiving.

The Rens require you to be a lot more on your game. They have a shorter contact length and a more tapered sidecut which results in having to be on the ski's sweet spot. To far back or too far forward and they don't really turn well. When tipped on edge with your fore-aft balance in that spot, they're very stable. But getting there can be a challenge, especially in snow that bounces you off line. They glide smoothly through powder without that drag that comes from sidecut or camber. They're a pretty special ski when you get them right.

For me, it came down to a ski that I could take out and safely know I'd enjoy pretty much all the time (Bibby) vs a ski that would kick my ass but leaving me living for those few special moments (Rens).

[ClarkleberryFinn]

D(C), thanks. Sounds like the Ren is more a quiver ski than the 'most days' Bibby? Does it handle sketchy traverses ok, or a bit nerve-wracking?

[D(C)]

D(C), thanks. Sounds like the Ren is more a quiver ski than the 'most days' Bibby? Does it handle sketchy traverses ok, or a bit nerve-wracking?

If you're willing to put in the work and not let your guard down, the Rens are a ski you can use everyday. But you'll sleep pretty well after some days on them. The Bibbys on the other hand will give back what you put into them but also allow you to relax a bit more if the snow is not completely smooth. If you're planning to use the Rens in variable conditions, make sure you're strong, have good technique and solid balance. When you hit them right there's nothing like them.

I don't remember any issues with traversing, but I never used the Rens for icy skinning.

[ClarkleberryFinn]

Cheers

78

[StopMakingSense]

I've skied both 190 Bibbys and 186 Renegades extensively. They're very different skis. The Bibbys are instantly intuitive and ski like a ski that has camber and a long contact length in variable snow. They're stable and forgiving.

The Rens require you to be a lot more on your game. They have a shorter contact length and a more tapered sidecut which results in having to be on the ski's sweet spot. To far back or too far forward and they don't really turn well. When tipped on edge with your fore-aft balance in that spot, they're very stable. But getting there can be a challenge, especially in snow that bounces you off line. They glide smoothly through powder without that drag that comes from sidecut or camber. They're a pretty special ski when you get them right.

For me, it came down to a ski that I could take out and safely know I'd enjoy pretty much all the time (Bibby) vs a ski that would kick my ass but leaving me living for those few special moments (Rens).

Pretty much my sentiment as well on this ski comparison. I ended up going back to the Bibby because 1.) I suck 2.) I'm lazy

The Ren's are amazing but you've gotta be on top of them 24/7, you'll get bucked quick if you aren't

[pfluffenmeister]

my 196s should arrive tomorrow!


oh boy oh boy oh boy!!!

[StopMakingSense]

my 196s should arrive tomorrow!


oh boy oh boy oh boy!!!

they're sick skis for sure, have fun