Stephen Hawking: God didn't create universe

[quixotle]

I have to respectfully disagree. Most of my good friends are religious and can justify their beliefs in an intelligent, logical, and coherent manner. I myself am not at all religious and really don't care for the concept of religion in general. I just don't think idiots are an exclusive feature of religion. If there were never any religions, there would still be the ignorant masses squabbling over who is right. That is just human nature. Religion is more like an incubated petri dish, it doesn't create bacteria, its just the ideal environment for them to feed and multiply rapidly.

It is impossible to justify or explain religion in an intelligent, logical, and coherent manner. It is not reasonable to believe in angels, devils, holy spirits, heaven, hell, that the earth was created in six days 6000 years ago, etc. It is a story, a very old story. To subscribe to it demonstrates a clear lack of reasoning and rational thought. There is no counter argument. God did not create man in his image, man created God in his image. Religion is a crutch for the weak minded who cannot live in a world of unknowns. What created us? What created the universe? What created life? What happens when we die? These are really the only big questions left for the human species to answer. For whatever reason many people need to create an imaginary deity to explain it all, much like ancient Greeks had their Gods to explain the world around them. Christianity (or any religion) is no different than say Scientology, the only difference is the former have been around longer so their traditions are woven into our cultures, and Scientology costs more. But ask a Christian what they think about Scientology and they will laugh, they just think it's ridiculous, yet are completely oblivious to the fact that from an objective point of view both belief systems are equally absurd. And of course that's not even getting into all that is wrong with organized religion, the bigotry, intolerance, inequality, sexism, greed, corruption, violence, etc. Like I said before, religion is a poison. Saying you know many people who are intelligent yet are religious is like me saying I know someone who is very knowledgeable, educated, and intelligent except he believes that we are actually living in a Matrix just like the movie. He has no evidence to support his belief but he knows a lot of people who feel the same way and you can't prove he's wrong. He's really quite intelligent though.

except that tolerance is not part of the teachings of atheism, while it is part of the teachings of most religions.

An intolerant atheist is not a hypocrite, while an intolerant Christian most certainly is.

That is perfectly stated. And Leroy as I stated in the post you quoted, I am not atheist, if you must give me a label then I am agnostic. I don't believe in "God" because there is no reason to, however I don't discount the possibility of a higher power existing in our universe or beyond. I just simply don't know, no one does. And regarding tolerance, I am tolerant of anything and everything, as long as it doesn't interfere or negatively impact mine or anyone else's life. Unfortunately organized religion does not fall into that category.

[Jethro]

That is perfectly stated. And Leroy as I stated in the post you quoted, I am not atheist, if you must give me a label then I am agnostic. I don't believe in "God" because there is no reason to, however I don't discount the possibility of a higher power existing in our universe or beyond. I just simply don't know, no one does. And regarding tolerance, I am tolerant of anything and everything, as long as it doesn't interfere or negatively impact mine or anyone else's life. Unfortunately organized religion does not fall into that category.

I am not sure about this definition. I would say an agnostic as someone who would say they do not know if there is a god or not. Realistically, everyone should have some agnostic in them since no one really knows if there is a supreme god. There is no evidence that can be used to prove its existence.

Atheism is based on belief. Knowledge plays a smaller role here. I consider myself an atheist because based on my lifetime of experience I think there is no god. I consider it an educated opinion. I cannot say that I know there is or is not a god. It cracks me up when religious folks tell me they know there is a god. Strong belief is not knowledge.

[GeezerSteve]

hohes makes a good case. The onus of proof lies with the proponent of a diety. An atheist has no obligation to prove the non-existence of a myth.

Most of my good friends are religious and can justify their beliefs in an intelligent, logical, and coherent manner.

I won't go as far as quitxotle, but I must disagree with this statement. As Kierkegaard and others observed, every case for a diety, at some point, requires a leap of faith. And faith is the converse of reason. So, while your friends might make an ostensibly logical case for a diety, at some point they abandon logic in favor of faith.

[PNWbrit]

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence.

[GeezerSteve]

I am not sure about this definition. I would say an agnostic as someone who would say they do not know if there is a god or not.

The classic definitions are:

An atheist denies the existence of god.

An agnostic denies the knowledge of god.

[PNWbrit]

As if the religionists weren't irritating enough with their theological navel gazing. But no they have to argue with us non believers about how our not believing really, actually means we do believe.

Along the same lines they insist on praying for us or against us....

Unanswerable Prayers - Christopher Hitchens

[dumpy]

TGR seems to be a place of bickering between atheists and agnostics trying to prove/disprove merely the possibility of a higher power.

So I have to ask, are there any religious folks on here? I'm sure there are some casuals, but is anyone on here deeply religious? If so, do you avoid these discussions for any specific reasons? I do respect your beliefs, I am just curious.



FWIW, I'm agnostic, I believe in evolution, big bang, etc and then wonder, what caused that. Ok, could be a higher power of some sort, in my mind it probably is.
I then look at the Hawking theory and say ok, yeah that makes sense, there are certain rules of the universe, these dictate how things happen and could cause things to just happen makes sense, but then I wonder, why do the rules exist, ok again this is where a higher power again seems like a plausible solution.

Then I say ok, there could be a higher power and the one question I've never been able to even wrap my head around is (assuming there is a higher power) where did the higher power come from (as someone else previously mentioned).

All theories at this point, me personally, at this point I've got more immediate concerns (like how much OL's loafers cost) than the origins of existence, but I guess it does make for fun fodder to fire people up with.

[Dickeymotto]

It is impossible to justify or explain religion in an intelligent, logical, and coherent manner. It is not reasonable to believe in angels, devils, holy spirits, heaven, hell, that the earth was created in six days 6000 years ago, etc. It is a story, a very old story. To subscribe to it demonstrates a clear lack of reasoning and rational thought. There is no counter argument. God did not create man in his image, man created God in his image. Religion is a crutch for the weak minded who cannot live in a world of unknowns. What created us? What created the universe? What created life? What happens when we die? These are really the only big questions left for the human species to answer. For whatever reason many people need to create an imaginary deity to explain it all, much like ancient Greeks had their Gods to explain the world around them. Christianity (or any religion) is no different than say Scientology, the only difference is the former have been around longer so their traditions are woven into our cultures, and Scientology costs more. But ask a Christian what they think about Scientology and they will laugh, they just think it's ridiculous, yet are completely oblivious to the fact that from an objective point of view both belief systems are equally absurd. And of course that's not even getting into all that is wrong with organized religion, the bigotry, intolerance, inequality, sexism, greed, corruption, violence, etc. Like I said before, religion is a poison. Saying you know many people who are intelligent yet are religious is like me saying I know someone who is very knowledgeable, educated, and intelligent except he believes that we are actually living in a Matrix just like the movie. He has no evidence to support his belief but he knows a lot of people who feel the same way and you can't prove he's wrong. He's really quite intelligent though.

Not all religions (not even all christian ones) state the list of beliefs you provided (the Earth being 6000 years old for example) are absolutely true with respect to our perception of things such as time and space. Most of my more intelligent friends (who are all mormons) openly state that many of these things that other faiths believe are not reasonable, but instead of denying them outright, they state conditions for which the statement would then be true. For example, none of my friends will say that the Earth is 6000 years old by our human reckoning, but that it is possible that the divine reckoning of time is quite different from ours. Again they are not stating that this is actually the case, but rather a conceptual possibility. They are well aware and quite accepting of the fact that they do not know where all of the pieces of the puzzle lie, just as scientists acknowledge that our knowledge of things is extremely limited and infantile. You'll never find my more educated friends denying things like evolution. They know there is abundant evidence of evolution and many of them have studied the fossils with me in the geology lab. All they claim is that god did, they don't claim to know how, why, where, or when, only that god was the one propagating such things. That openly admit that it is most probable that god, with infinite knowledge, created a situation where these things would run their natural course and meet the intended end. Assuming that their is an omniscient and omnipotent being beyond the scope of our comprehension, it would make sense to suppose that such a being would know the properties of the elements and the laws of physics well enough to predict the outcome of such a creation with 100% accuracy, and therefore arranged creation in such a way that the desired result would naturally occur. Educated Mormons also claim that much of the Bible is highly inaccurate (due to many translations and editing through time) and written in such a way so that the lay person (meaning every human being of less than divine intelligence) is able to use it as a reference and guide for finding the practical answers to daily life through a personal relationship with god. That makes perfect sense to me.

The reason I don't believe in such a system is simple. I grew up mormon, but never really had a testimony of any of the doctrine. They have a test built in to the book of mormon, where you read and ponder the book in its entirety and then pray a very personal, earnest, and specific prayer with the promise that if you do this in 100% honesty and are truly seeking an answer, you will receive some kind of witness of its truth. I tried this multiple times growing up and received nothing. So accordingly, I do not subscribe to the church nor believe in its teachings in any form, or any religion for that matter. However, many of my good friends, whom I know through much personal experience to be honest people, claim to have had this witness and have began their beliefs with that fundamental and built from there with similar and more specific experiences. Again, this is a logical way to go about your religion. Their religious doctrine is quite open ended and lends itself to personal interpretation. There are few people who actually are this educated about it though, most just follow common perceptions about topics without personally researching and finding answers for themselves. I have many friends like this as well. The truly educated of my mormon friends have no qualms with science, and gladly accept scientific evidence without contradicting their religious beliefs. This is quite possible to do, but most do not.

Again, I am non-religious, but to make a hasty generalization that all religions are unjustifiable and that one must be ignorant and illogical to accept religion, is in and of itself ignorant and illogical. Have you met every religious person from the past, present, and future? Have you listened to each and every one's personal justification of their religion? Then you are making some very large assumptions to which you have no evidence or authority to support. You are doing exactly the same thing that you are condemning, in that you are filling in the value of an unknown variable in such a way that it explains the negative phenomena surrounding religion that you have personally witnessed or have heard about.

[doughboyshredder]

TGR seems to be a place of bickering between atheists and agnostics trying to prove/disprove merely the possibility of a higher power.

So I have to ask, are there any religious folks on here? I'm sure there are some casuals, but is anyone on here deeply religious?

I can think of a few off the top of my head.
MrW, Gatorboy, Grrr (I think), Rasputin, OSECS,

[doughboyshredder]

The reason I don't believe in such a system is simple. I grew up mormon, but never really had a testimony of any of the doctrine. They have a test built in to the book of mormon, where you read and ponder the book in its entirety and then pray a very personal, earnest, and specific prayer with the promise that if you do this in 100% honesty and are truly seeking an answer, you will receive some kind of witness of its truth. I tried this multiple times growing up and received nothing.

You just haven't taken enough drugs. "God" answers me anytime I pray, and I'm an atheist. Go figure.

[lemmycaution]

religion has always begun where science ends, it answers the questions that science at that time cannot answer. then when science figures it out, religion always has to change their position to accomodate science which is provable. the gods used to fly a golden chariot across the sky which explained the sun, then the earth was at the center of the solar system etc etc etc. to me, this by itself makes me question religion in general- it is just a way to answer the unanswerable questions- it is a psychological conceit and comforts believers. why are we here? what happens when we die? these are the running current questions. the answers (for no reason and nothing respectively) are scary as shit to everyone.

[quixotle]

Not all religions (not even all christian ones) state the list of beliefs you provided (the Earth being 6000 years old for example) are absolutely true with respect to our perception of things such as time and space. Most of my more intelligent friends (who are all mormons) openly state that many of these things that other faiths believe are not reasonable, but instead of denying them outright, they state conditions for which the statement would then be true. For example, none of my friends will say that the Earth is 6000 years old by our human reckoning, but that it is possible that the divine reckoning of time is quite different from ours. Again they are not stating that this is actually the case, but rather a conceptual possibility. They are well aware and quite accepting of the fact that they do not know where all of the pieces of the puzzle lie, just as scientists acknowledge that our knowledge of things is extremely limited and infantile. You'll never find my more educated friends denying things like evolution. They know there is abundant evidence of evolution and many of them have studied the fossils with me in the geology lab. All they claim is that god did, they don't claim to know how, why, where, or when, only that god was the one propagating such things. That openly admit that it is most probable that god, with infinite knowledge, created a situation where these things would run their natural course and meet the intended end. Assuming that their is an omniscient and omnipotent being beyond the scope of our comprehension, it would make sense to suppose that such a being would know the properties of the elements and the laws of physics well enough to predict the outcome of such a creation with 100% accuracy, and therefore arranged creation in such a way that the desired result would naturally occur. Educated Mormons also claim that much of the Bible is highly inaccurate (due to many translations and editing through time) and written in such a way so that the lay person (meaning every human being of less than divine intelligence) is able to use it as a reference and guide for finding the practical answers to daily life through a personal relationship with god. That makes perfect sense to me.

The reason I don't believe in such a system is simple. I grew up mormon, but never really had a testimony of any of the doctrine. They have a test built in to the book of mormon, where you read and ponder the book in its entirety and then pray a very personal, earnest, and specific prayer with the promise that if you do this in 100% honesty and are truly seeking an answer, you will receive some kind of witness of its truth. I tried this multiple times growing up and received nothing. So accordingly, I do not subscribe to the church nor believe in its teachings in any form, or any religion for that matter. However, many of my good friends, whom I know through much personal experience to be honest people, claim to have had this witness and have began their beliefs with that fundamental and built from there with similar and more specific experiences. Again, this is a logical way to go about your religion. Their religious doctrine is quite open ended and lends itself to personal interpretation. There are few people who actually are this educated about it though, most just follow common perceptions about topics without personally researching and finding answers for themselves. I have many friends like this as well. The truly educated of my mormon friends have no qualms with science, and gladly accept scientific evidence without contradicting their religious beliefs. This is quite possible to do, but most do not.

Again, I am non-religious, but to make a hasty generalization that all religions are unjustifiable and that one must be ignorant and illogical to accept religion, is in and of itself ignorant and illogical. Have you met every religious person from the past, present, and future? Have you listened to each and every one's personal justification of their religion? Then you are making some very large assumptions to which you have no evidence or authority to support. You are doing exactly the same thing that you are condemning, in that you are filling in the value of an unknown variable in such a way that it explains the negative phenomena surrounding religion that you have personally witnessed or have heard about.

No offense, actually I don't really care. That was some world class blathering, please let me know when the compelling and intelligent explanation you alluded to in your previous post makes an appearance. Wow, why didn't I think of that? Science can't contradict religion because god created science! It's all part of the plan. Brilliant. This is the kind of stupidity that angers me, what the fuck is wrong with people!

[peterslovo]

religion has always begun where science ends, it answers the questions that science at that time cannot answer. then when science figures it out, religion always has to change their position to accomodate science which is provable. the gods used to fly a golden chariot across the sky which explained the sun, then the earth was at the center of the solar system etc etc etc. to me, this by itself makes me question religion in general- it is just a way to answer the unanswerable questions- it is a psychological conceit and comforts believers. why are we here? what happens when we die? these are the running current questions. the answers (for no reason and nothing respectively) are scary as shit to everyone.

Well stated, lemmy. I agree, except to qualify that it tries to answer the questions

[PNWbrit]

what the fuck is wrong with people!

Their gods?

Well stated, lemmy. I agree, except to qualify that it tries to answer the questions

The jury is still out on the whole golden chariot thing?

[peterslovo]

The jury is still out on the whole golden chariot thing?

Ha! For sure. Saw it this morning.

[GeezerSteve]

Dickeymotto, you must have been asleep when your philosophy professor explained the distinction between absolute Truths (with a "capital T" per Descarte) and relative or perceived truths (small "t"). An absolute Truth is unbending, e.g., the law of gravity. A relative truth is, well, kinda whatever everybody in the room agrees to be the truth, even though it may be total bullshit in absolute terms.

Your description of Mormonism is way off base. You are describing your LDS friends as relativists. (Calling someone a relativist is a smear in philosophical circles). But Mormonism and all other Xian sects are premised on the fundamental rule that, if one does not accept certain tenets as absolute truths, then one will pay the penalty of eternal damnation. So, either your LDS friends are talking shit or, if the LDS church has it right (ha ha), they are bound for hell.

[ski_adk]

religion has always begun where science ends, it answers the questions that science at that time cannot answer. then when science figures it out, religion always has to change their position to accomodate science which is provable. the gods used to fly a golden chariot across the sky which explained the sun, then the earth was at the center of the solar system etc etc etc. to me, this by itself makes me question religion in general- it is just a way to answer the unanswerable questions- it is a psychological conceit and comforts believers. why are we here? what happens when we die? these are the running current questions. the answers (for no reason and nothing respectively) are scary as shit to everyone.

This is kinda where i was trying to go before I somehow bastardize Bertrand Russell (btw, Hohes, thanks for introducing him to me).

Anyways, I've always wondered about what people were trying to describe in the original religious texts when they were written so many years ago. I mean, sure, there's always been a bit of the Joseph Smiths out there who say "Oh a divine being visited me, and chose me and wants you to believe me, no seriously, just trust me" types, but then again there's also been classic themes of beings coming from the sky. What if a primitive culture actually interacted with a superior, extra-terrestrial being -- how would that translate down to us thousands of years later?

Also, what about those who actually experienced testimony like what Dickeymotto describes? Who is anyone to debate the emotional and physical experience of someone who might actually get something?

Of course, I'm just playing devil's advocate here...basically because the atheist/agnostics around here are so damn sensitive to the idea of religion.

Personally, I don't know what the hell is out there. I grew up going to Church, but got more and more creeped out by my fellow church goers until it got to a point that I just stopped going. While I was there, I did pay attention and the theme that I continually got out of it was to treat each other with love, respect and charity and to love God and His creation. Going to Church was never really mentioned in the Bible, so I figured, what better way to love God and creation than to be out in it?

Anyways, you've gotta admit that religion does provide good for the world too. While it's terrible motivation for leading a moral life, how many people would actually do it if it weren't for the whole heaven/hell thing held over their heads? If religion keeps some nut job from turning towards murdering and stealing, then by all means, pray away.

[lemmycaution]

Well stated, lemmy. I agree, except to qualify that it tries to answer the questions

fair enough, but my answers aren't really answers. i guess i could just put "xxxxxxx" in there or something?

[Beastiality]

"highly intelligent mormons" that is pretty good I must say

[iscariot]

religion has always begun where science ends, it answers the questions that science at that time cannot answer. then when science figures it out, religion always has to change their position to accomodate science which is provable. the gods used to fly a golden chariot across the sky which explained the sun, then the earth was at the center of the solar system etc etc etc. to me, this by itself makes me question religion in general- it is just a way to answer the unanswerable questions- it is a psychological conceit and comforts believers. why are we here? what happens when we die? these are the running current questions. the answers (for no reason and nothing respectively) are scary as shit to everyone.

Unfortunately people are killing each other because their made-up/imagined answers for what science cannot explain are different from that of someone else...

The answers that people provide for what science cannot explain will often tell you more about the mind of the the person providing the answer, rather than point to some actual truth...The fact that a person simply can say "Well, I don't know and likely never will," actually provides a lot of insight into the insecurities of that person.

And if they have to make up some sort of story to make themselves more comfortable, the stories will reveal a lot about the person.

Now, if they go off to war, killing someone else because that person's made up story doesn't agree with that of the first person...it reveals that the excuse of religious explanation in the face of insecurity is actually more destructive and evil that not having religion.

[grrrr]

I can think of a few off the top of my head.
MrW, Gatorboy, Grrr (I think), Rasputin, OSECS,

I consider myself highly sacrilegious. Other than that, I have no-eye deer why you think such.

[GiBo]

Unfortunately people are killing each other because their made-up/imagined answers for what science cannot explain are different from that of someone else...

The answers that people provide for what science cannot explain will often tell you more about the mind of the the person providing the answer, rather than point to some actual truth...The fact that a person simply can say "Well, I don't know and likely never will," actually provides a lot of insight into the insecurities of that person.

And if they have to make up some sort of story to make themselves more comfortable, the stories will reveal a lot about the person.

Now, if they go off to war, killing someone else because that person's made up story doesn't agree with that of the first person...it reveals that the excuse of religious explanation in the face of insecurity is actually more destructive and evil that not having religion.

This is spot on.

Who is anyone to debate the emotional and physical experience of someone who might actually get something?

I teared up during a Willie Nelson song once. But I don't do whatever he says.

I really feel for people who were brought up with religion. I am so greatful my parents were neutral on the subject. Out of the three kids, one is a practicing Catholic, one a believing non-church goer and me the agnostic (and you can define that anyway you want- for me it just means I don't believe any of it and really don't give a shit about it). It would be tough if my entire family and community were of some religion. The pressure to believe must be intense. I would like to think I would be smart enough to figure it out, but I imagine my brain would process things a little differently had it been programmed to believe in a religion. As it was, I remember having guilt when I was old enough to doubt there was a God- and that was just from societal pressures. I really think a lot of 'believers' are just going through the motions because questioning it just wouldn't be worth it.

[BigDaddy]

Some gold in here. It's nice to see these views articulated and argued. I agree and feel the same as many of these posters... maybe we should start a church?

[Pow4Brains]

Ski forums and creation of the universe = Awesomeness.

[doughboyshredder]

I consider myself highly sacrilegious. Other than that, I have no-eye deer why you think such.

I must have misread one of your posts. My apologies.