Alternative Medicines Discussion

[Ripzalot]

My point is that better and more extensive training makes better doctors or technicians. The same doctors who also have had extensive physiology and medical understanding so that they do not just perform procedures without considering referral to other doctors. No one brought up anything about Qi or culture .

so american acupuncturists are just taught the mechical techniques, without the background philosophy about Qi? is that correct?

Also, watching a master acupuncturist at work is different than watching a novice. Technically, a knee or shoulder operation can be done without full training. Would you want your orthopedic surgeon to have only gone to school for a couple years? What would said surgeon do when there is a complication? What does it say about the attitude towards the procedure when the whole medical system is based upon education and certification to allow for minimal training of acupuncturists?

so you are saying american acupuncturists are not good, right?

[keipow]

so american acupuncturists are just taught the mechical techniques, without the background philosophy about Qi? is that correct?


so you are saying american acupuncturists are not good, right?

The Qi theory's faith-related parts are not what any realistic scientist cares about. It's the knowledge that has been gained through thousands of years of empirical human testing that is important. Without the medical research necessary to remove the faith-related sections, the acupuncture theories remain relatively useful for its empirical understanding.

Some American schools do teach Qi.

I am saying that the American certification system is less rigorous than the Asian systems. Therefore, the best acupuncturists will be trained in China, etc. Whoever is average, will remain average. For the majority of us that will only get the average care, it is important to look carefully, as one should always do with any medical care.

[DownhillRider]

Ripzalot, you should research acupuncture a bit. As far as I know, most real doctors agree that it does work. Obviously the chi and other such aspects are pure bullshit, but that doesn't mean there aren't real things going on in the body, and they just made up why that energy is there. All that matters is whether it works or not. I could be wrong on this though, enlighten me if I am. This is mainly from reading random things.

And I agree, 99% of homeopathic medicines are complete bullshit made up by fucking scam artists that want to make some cash by taking advantage of the naive.

Edit: I should clarify, acupuncture has its place for certain things, obviously not for everything. Or even for very much at that.

[splat]

If the basis of acupuncture is chi itself and you acknowledge that acupuncture works, how do you justify saying that chi, which acupuncture is based on and is all about, is bullshit?

How about those yogis that can sit with their loegs crossed for a month and never move?

I don't portend to have any insights other than my own, but find the capabilities of people who have mastered chi and prana energy quite intriguing in their abilities while defying western explanations for why some things are possible.

[mysteryzombie]

summit, i never really claimed to be any expert on anything. so read my post and see that i am merely trying to theorize why it's not as "proven."
but yes, you can see how effective medicines other than the patient claiming "my headache is gone" for whatever medicine they take. there are technologies that measure changes within the body. these technologies have been used to measure the changes in the body brought about by homeopathic remedies; neurological changes have been seen and recorded, etc.
i can't explain how it all works just as you can't. but overall homeopathy has great success reports all over the planet. if you think it's all placebo hidden in a sugar pill then that's fine by me.
there are many md's including internal med docs and the like, who studied homeopathy after years of practice, and began to use homeopathy in their practice instead of today's pills.

i do understand the power of placebo, and have read a bunch about the studies on placebo. but i also have seen homeopathy work in infants, do they understand placebo?

[summit]

Got any peer reviewed double blind studies from reputable medical journals that show statistically significant effectiveness of homeopathy?

Or do you just have "I've heard it works all around the world and I heard about some doctor who likes it" and other such anecdotes.

I'd also love to see the studies you claim prove technologically measured effects of homeopathy.

[DownhillRider]

If the basis of acupuncture is chi itself and you acknowledge that acupuncture works, how do you justify saying that chi, which acupuncture is based on and is all about, is bullshit?

How about those yogis that can sit with their loegs crossed for a month and never move?

I don't portend to have any insights other than my own, but find the capabilities of people who have mastered chi and prana energy quite intriguing in their abilities while defying western explanations for why some things are possible.

I don't really know much about how acupuncture is supposed to work, and don't have a desire to research it, so to be quite honest I'm talking out of my ass here. If acupuncture claims the whole body maintains homeostasis by forces of chi or whatever, then I think it's very safe to say that's not true. I think that it just triggers certain things in the body.

I asked for a basic explanation from my physiotherapist on how the TENS electrical impulse thing they hook you up to works one morning, and he said it activates opioid receptors in the central nervous system. He mentioned that it's similar to the way that acupuncture works. That's just what one person said though, and I haven't researched it for verification, so take it with a grain of salt. Found a article I read a few months ago about acupuncture and adenosine you might wanna check out too: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0530144021.htm . I remember seeing a better article on physorg about the same study, can't find it though. The only way I'd buy in to Chi is by seeing evidence on what's actually going on.

As far as Yogis go, the power of the mind, and the human body, are quite amazing. But take everything you read/hear about Yogis and such with a grain of salt. [nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0u6eJB9GLY"]YouTube- James Randi Speaks: Powered by Sunlight[/nomedia] I used to be very open minded about this type of stuff, until I read a book by the Swami Rama saying all sorts of crazy shit. It was pretty cool, and then I actually looked him up and learned all about the scumbag. It seems like a lot of yogis and such are liars, so just keep in mind people aren't always telling the truth.

Mysteryzombie, the human body can heal itself eh? If I gave those infants a bit of guiness a few times a day, and they were healed, then would guiness therefore have therapeutic properties? I fucking hope so, shits delicious.

(Edited to remove a bit of a tangent)

[mysteryzombie]

thats my point- what medical journals based on homeopathy do you know of?
there are a gazillion case studies where the patients are relieved of their symptoms. regarding this technology- ok, an example: woman has ms. she is treated with homeopathy for a while. she feels better. she goes back to the neurologist,etc who was treating her with meds before she went to homeopathy. he does these tests--"your brain scan shows no more white matter. your emgs look good. your blood counts look great. ekg normal. what did you take? whatever you took, it seems to be working."
that's what i am talking about- that is where the physiological changes are proven. just like with testing after using any other kind of treatment approach. those kind of results are documented but are not mushed in with "conventional" medicine's reports. maybe they will or could be one day, once the mighty dollar doesn't rule the world of medicine.

regarding placebo. now how do you explain the cases where people use all kinds of pills, etc, applied by their docs for whatever ailment they have, and get no positive results (maybe even some side effects)...the doc told them these medicines will work, he's the top doc in this field, and the patient fully trusts and believes this will work. but for whatever reason it didn't work. then the patient tries homeopathy as (often is) the last resort. and for some reason it works. is this practitioner better at convincing that his placebo will work? from what i have learned, neither doc never guarantees results, as a matter of fact, i think the homeopathic doc is more likely to avoid promises of good health while taking the case. but regardless- how do you explain that?

these studies that i haven't claimed to know of are really no different than the studies provided by medicinal approaches that use artificially derived medicines. they go by results measured both verbally from the patient as well as via tests on the body after treatment.
if you want to find and read all of the studies provided by each type of medicine, do some digging around for yourself. i am not here to argue or say i am more correct than others, so quit yall bitching and like i said, take all you read with a grain of salt. yes the human body can heal itself of many things but of course most things that cause pains or illness should be treated with whatever approach you choose. i am not one to say don't use this don't do that. do whatever the fuck you want to heal yourself. i choose homeopathy school because i have seen it work firsthand on myself and others. i have enjoyed studying other medicines as well and they all have their place. so get off my back because i am clearly not shoving this shit down anyone's throat as it being the medicine to end all medicines. i have never once claimed that in any of my posts. all i have said is that it has worked for millions of people worldwide for over 200 years, with results being proven by the simple fact that those people's illnesses have been lifted and the physiological changes seen on post-treatment studies. just like with pills, acupuncture, etc.. maybe they are all placebos. prove to me how the pills, synthetically derived from substances found on earth, are no less of placebo. some work, some don't. but they sure cost a lot so they must be better.

and beer- i have had a surgeon in munich who claimed i must drink beer after the surgery (a day later) to mellow out the intestines. but it didn't fix my torn abdominal muscles, the surgery did. if anything, beer is good for healing poor attitudes...in some people.

[summit]

Your position is a strange mix of "I don't understand statistics and science research methodology" and "science and statistics don't matter, only causally dubious anecdotes." Perhaps it is because your posts are pretty incoherent smatterings of thought which is how I gather your mind works. It all makes sense now.

[arild]

drivel.

You mention placebo too many times in your post, so I guess this is what you´re saying - homeopathy is placebo. It´s bullshit. Homeopathy really can´t cure shit. Please show us the credible studies where MS patients have magically gotten better from homeopathy. They´re not out there. Homeopathy doctors - "docs" do not exist. Homeopathy is placebo put in system, but where a placebo with a purpose most often is given in reliance with double blind studies, as Summit points out, all homeopathic "medicine" are placebos, but marketed as either cures or relieving medicines. It´s all a big fucking fraud taking advantage of personal misery, whether it´s psychological or physiological in nature.

On acupuncture; my impression is that what people perceive as "Chi/Qi" are the results of thousands of years of empirical studies. It works, but we don´t know exactly how to translate it into western medicine. Which is OK. Many doctors think it might have an effect on treating symptoms for various illnesses, but that it´s no cure.

Prolozone; My impression is that it works mostly like an NSAID would, but I haven´t read enough about it to comment further.

I´m an RN, and what I do, why and how I do them, are based on two things; my own clinical experience and clinical studies - which almost always are done in "western" countries, including Oz/NZ. This quite obviously gives me a bias, so you know my stance on things.

[splat]

I´m an RN, and what I do, why and how I do them, are based on two things; my own clinical experience and clinical studies - which almost always are done in "western" countries, including Oz/NZ. This quite obviously gives me a bias, so you know my stance on things.

At least you admit a bias, arild. I can appreciate that.

From your RN perspective, what do you think of autologous cell therapy?

[Ripzalot]

How about those yogis that can sit with their loegs crossed for a month and never move?

is chi really the only plausible explanation? are we really sure they sat like that for a month and never moved? i.e. have they been studied scientifically?

i know there are all sorts of oddballs in indian yogi mysticism who claim to live in a cave without food or water, blow on a conch shell for long periods of time, smoke hash standing for long periods, shun all materialism, whatever - are they really any different than christian or new age reiki healers who heal by "laying of the hands", speak in tongues, or whatever? maybe the yogis are not raking in the benjamins like benny hinn but they are being cared for by people for free and carry a certain amount of respect. both are equally specious.

case in point:

Man claims to have had no food or drink for 70 years

really?

The Qi theory's faith-related parts are not what any realistic scientist cares about. It's the knowledge that has been gained through thousands of years of empirical human testing that is important. Without the medical research necessary to remove the faith-related sections, the acupuncture theories remain relatively useful for its empirical understanding.

i know that acupuncture has a large acceptance but has there ever been a successful double blind trial that proves its effective beyond the placebo effect? afaik, there is none.


not bashing anyone or their beliefs but just attempting to separate the wheat from the chaff. i am now actually very interested in pursuing prolotherapy for my plantar fasciitis problems. i'm really tired of pills as a long term cure and tired of living in pain.

[splat]

Hey, Ripz, funny you should mention the breatharian. This guy below was giving a speech in Santa Cruz to his devoted followers and was caught after his talk wolfing down hot dogs and nachos at the 7-11 behind my house by a reporter who followed him.

[mysteryzombie]

i think some of you are here to just argue. that in itself is a pathology.
i not once claimed to be an expert on anything, so please do yourself a favor and if you don't like my thinking, then move along. i am not claiming one is right over another.
but- show me studies that detail the efficacy of pills. how do "they" know these pills work? where/how do they collect data and provide proof of synthetically-derived medicines?
it's no different. homeopathic medicines are not synthetically derived, no additives. the pills are synthetically derived from items found in nature or in our own bodies.
it's just a different kind of pill.
medicine, aside from surgery, is providing your body with information which enables the body to initiate the change it needs to hopefully fix/cure/mend and ailment.
the medicine itself does not cure problems. yes, antibiotics will kill bad bacteria, as do other pills.
i only mention placebo because some people are calling all homeopathic medicines placebo. do me a favor and show me that synthetic medicines are not placebo. there really is no evidence to prove that this pill is causing a physiological change in the body other than the usual tests, is there? the results of how the patient is doing after the treatment.
it's no different. whatever approach a patient takes, it will either work or it won't. does that mean that all medicines are placebos, and it just takes that one day of believing that this will work and it does?

i'm not here to provide you with studies, if you need to see them that badly go find them for yourselves, you are obviously an expert on medicines of all kinds so why even bother asking me or anyone else to provide you with proof on paper?

why not read more into intracellular communication and the concepts behind information medicine (ie, biophotons, etc), at least of your own interest in the future of medicine or at least for your own enjoyment. or maybe you are so stubborn in believing only what you already know and are being taught that you'd rather call out bullshit on things you may not understand nor care to think outside the box.





by the way, thanks for keeping this an intelligent conversation. you guys must be a joy to hang out with at a round table setting. it's sad that you can't even try to wrap your head around concepts you may not agree with nor understand, and instead get all bitchy and insulting like a couple of schoolgirls.
i personally believe in basically all medicines and enjoy learning about them. not once have i shot down other medicines aside from the case with side effects and extremely high costs of pills. i never claimed homeopathy to be the grail. all i mentioned is that it worked well for me and it has also worked well for millions of others, so it should be considered a viable medicine due to the positive results seen worldwide.
if you think it's a placebo then fine. but get off my back and stop doing your best to insult people.
don't expect me to come back here, i'm not gonna waste my time. if you actually knew who i am and my story of the past 6 and a half years of battling illness and physical injury then maybe you would not be acting how you are. when my book comes out in 2 years come and see me and i'll autograph yours for only a small fee. but it might not actually be a real autograph, imma gonna give you a placebo signature.

[Ripzalot]

Hey, Ripz, funny you should mention the breatharian. This guy below was giving a speech in Santa Cruz to his devoted followers and was caught after his talk wolfing down hot dogs and nachos at the 7-11 behind my house by a reporter who followed him.

the tomorrow show? man you ARE old!

it's a bit telling of the times to see such a sham artist on a national show hosted by a well respected host. i think the west has a love affair with eastern mysticism due to either a hatred or disdain for the western religious culture (christianity) and/or a certain inner quest for esoteric knowledge. eastern 'mystics' are no different than christian charasmatics imho.

[Ripzalot]

by the way, thanks for keeping this an intelligent conversation. you guys must be a joy to hang out with at a round table setting. it's sad that you can't even try to wrap your head around concepts you may not agree with nor understand, and instead get all bitchy and insulting like a couple of schoolgirls.

you are definitely gonna get that at tgr whether its a discussion of alt medicine or fat skis.

i appreciate what you say but like the sentiment being posted by others, i also have to have a proveable factual based reason for accepting any therapy. if not, i am likely just subjecting myself to placebo effect. that in itself is not necessarily a bad thing if it leads to a cure (or even a temporary solution), but my belief is that rather than pay someone mega bucks for a convoluted hokey pokey theory (which is my belief about homeopathy for one) you could pay a farmer 30CHFs to wave his arms over you. no harm no foul and you are only out 30CHFs.

plus i also believe that if the power of placebo effect, and therefore the inner power of the mind, is possible to such a degree, that we should be able to learn and harness that power ourselves, without assistance, possibly simply through meditation and/or prayer.

[arild]

At least you admit a bias, arild. I can appreciate that.

From your RN perspective, what do you think of autologous cell therapy?

That specific type of stem cell treatment was new to me - used to be mostly interested in the oncology side of it all, and also used to donate bone marrow from my hips for that specific pursuit on a regular basis. I do believe stem cell research and the eventual treatment that will derive from it are good things. It seems these days we´ve mostly gotten rid of the religious fuckers keeping real stem cell research from developing

I´m not entirely certain how and if we´re at a stage where we can actually stunt tissue regeneration - especially the type of tissue we´re interested in, like cartillage in our precious knees (I´m 24, and would love a set of fresh medial meniscuses).

I work in cardiology, and one of the first meds that gets ordained when a new patient arrives after a heart infarction or an episode of severe chest pain is usually a platelet inhibitor. This is to prevent the platelets from clotting wherever in the heart any infarction is going on - we want to prevent myocardial necrosis - heart muscle tissue death. I am, because of this, suspect of anything regarding platelet enriched blood being injected anywhere in the circulation system, even if these hormones actually work for their intended purpose.

The problem with cartillage, as you probably know, is that it, unlike bone tissue, has an inherently bad regeneration "system" and circulation (being Norwegian, I hope this translation of mine isn´t too confusing). So even if these guys can inject platelet enriched blood, I´m baffled as to where the blood would go? Will the platelets just magically kickstart an almost non-existent regeneration of knee cartillage?

From my limited knowledge of orthopedy as a field of work, I gather that most anything being injected into an area with one type of tissue with inherently bad uptake, one type of tissue with good uptake, and one type of tissue with great uptake, the fluid will take the path of least resistance. Depending on the injection site, I´d venture a guess that it would either be the bone tissue, which is supposed to build cartillage, or the blood. If the blood catches a large dose of platelets, I´d be afraid of the results, as platelets are sticky beasts.

With years of experience with bad knees, you probably know how shitty it feels when they get filled with fluid that doesn´t seem to want to go anywhere. That´s an immediate thought of mine when thinking of injecting anything short of corticosteroids into your knees. 50ccs at that is a pretty big volume to shoot (I might be mistaken from the video, though) into your joints!

There are probably some errors in my reasoning here, as it´s 4:50 AM, and I´m between shifts with no sleep, but I think you sparked something very worthy of discussion here, splat. Keep in mind, though, that stem cell treatment/research really is not considered "alternative" at this point. It´s experimental and a "new" form of medicine. This is not homeopathy, this is not acupuncture, and this is not our current western medicine. This is still the next phase, and I think anyone being the least interested in medicine would be excited for any new arrivals in the stem cell field. It´s certainly a prioritized field of research in Norway.

I´d love to talk some more about this, but I´m afraid I´ll overstep my bounds of truly understanding if I keep on typing right now..

Have a good one, I´ll check in tomorrow.

[arild]

you could pay a farmer 30CHFs to wave his arms over you. no harm no foul and you are only out 30CHFs.

I may be sleep depraved and therefore a bit psychotic, but I´m envisioning a Swiss farmer taking money to wave his arms over you for money. Hilarious.

Mysteryzombie:

It´s cool that you´re interested in all sorts of medicine. Glad for you, really. The thing is, though, that I´ve seen too many people bummed out after spending shitloads of money on homeopathy when facing a serious illness after all other options are stressed. The thing is, these people often offer cures. Much the same with evangelical ministers and so called faith healing. Afterwards, the only people smiling will be the salesman or the preacher, depending on which route you took. I don´t know your story, and it seems like you want to save the details for later, which I respect. My point is that we should watch out for false prophets, all of us. We know what real meds do, because the various governments around the world, like the American FDA, demands documentation of the drugs´ various effects. Therefore, it has to be tested and studied before market release. Clinical practitioners, be it doctors, nurses or pharmacologists, are obligated to report any side effects a new drug may have to the authorities.

I´m out now. I think.

[Ripzalot]

I may be sleep depraved and therefore a bit psychotic, but I´m envisioning a Swiss farmer taking money to wave his arms over you for money. Hilarious.

my ENL doctor told me a story about them. his wife has some friends who have a son that had warts on his face. the father took him to one of these healers. he sat in a circle with about 20 other people looking for help. he walked around the circle and randomly put his hands on each persons shoulders and shook them. cost 30chfs. the next day the boys warts were gone. even still, his mother freaked out that the father had done this and kicked him out of the house. i think they reconciled in the end but the point was that the father had crossed a line with her spiritual beliefs, even though a cure was made. also, the coach of the sion football club regularly takes his team to this swiss healer and claims it helps them with injuries and overall well being.

this is my ENL doc telling me the story, not some local yokel. he doesn't believe but said in regards to my tinnitus if you can cure it by putting a page or the bible on your forehead and spitting into the air then he's all for it.

[XXX-er]

I used accupuncture for a frozen shoulder ,I am a longtime WW paddler whih is hard on the shoulders , I don't get dislocations when my shoulders get hurt they freeze up ,to start with I was in uncomfortable pain ,enough so it kept me awake at night ,it hurt alot if I hit something ,I couldnt lift my arm straight out to the side more than 45degrees ... the real doctors told me to come back for physio when the shoudler unfroze whenever so I was desperate

Buddy the traditional chinese doc would stick up to 20 pins in my hands,elbow shoulder and up into my hair line and leave them in for 45 mins

after the 1st visit I had an extra 10degrees of motion ,I think I would lose that by the next visit and he would stimultae it again ,eventualy he would clip the tens shocker thing that PT's use between needles

what accupuncture did IMO was stimulate the area and help the body heal itself ,cost 40$ a shot not covered by medical but I think it was worth it ,I think I did 14 visits but it stopped being of much use at 9 visits

[Ripzalot]

what accupuncture did IMO was stimulate the area and help the body heal itself ,cost 40$ a shot not covered by medical but I think it was worth it ,I think I did 14 visits but it stopped being of much use at 9 visits

this is what i believe about it - it is doing something neurological. i dont buy the qi/chi theory, it's about as believable as santa claus. sounds all cool and hip to western audiences tho.

what i don't get is how inexact acupuncture is. why are there times that it does nothing? even on persons with whom it is effective, sometimes the 'magic spot' (for lack of a better term) that is supposed to relieve problem X, it does nothing. so the acupuncturist makes some excuse (are you eating brocolli?) and then moves to another spot. just from what i've been reading on the subject.

[XXX-er]

not into the qui/chior anything funky just what worked

My experiance with acupunture and chiro since I was 16 , give it a shot AND if they can't help you in 6 to 10 visits over a very short term ... its not going to fix you

[keipow]

not into the qui/chior anything funky just what worked

My experiance with acupunture and chiro since I was 16 , give it a shot AND if they can't help you in 6 to 10 visits over a very short term ... its not going to fix you

Acupuncture is supposed to work over an extended period. Most people would benefit from going a few times after your symptoms disappear. Your orthopedic surgeon and physical therapist also do not release you immediately after your symptoms disappear and see you a few times after.

[Ripzalot]

how about ear candling? my pt tried to get me interested in this today for my tinnitus. my ENT doc told me it's bs. everything i've read online says its bs. it makes no logical sense. why do people believe this?

[splat]

After having my right eardrum rebuilt twice, I tried ear candling, but blew it off due to no noticeable change. If you want to clear wax out of your ears, just tilt the shower hear to run some warm water in there.

I am, however, into lymph drainage, something that helped with the sinus problems that accompanied my tympanoplasties.