Cost of Living - San Fran vs. PDX

**Platinum Pete** · 06-29-2010, 02:04 PM

It looks like I may get a job offer in San Francisco. I've been in Portland for 10 great years and the opportunities to continue to climb in my company and field are limited in Oregon. This San Francisco position with my company is a lateral move, but with better resources and more exposure - good deal if the money is right. Not sure I can imagine myself living there long term, but a chance to live/work/play in one of the most beautiful and exciting areas of earth is tough to pass up if the money is right.

SO, how do I determine if the money is right?

I've looked at online cost of living calculators and it looks like I'd need to earn about $30k more per year - but none of the calculators break that down into housing, taxes, groceries, gym membership, utilities, etc., so I'm not sure how much of that $30k is applicable to me - it's not like I have to worry about daycare, vet bills, or pool cleaning. How can I get an accurate read on what I really need to make to maintain my current standard of living? Upping my income by $30k is about a 35% raise over my current income - maybe I could sock more away or maybe I'd need to trim back the 401k contributions and clip coupons.

Additionally, what adjustments does someone moving from a place like Portland need to make to live in a place like San Francisco? My office would be in the financial district and I'd like to be able to walk/bike/mass trans to work in 30 minutes or less. Are the apartments generally a lot smaller? Do most folks have cars and what are the associated cost differences?

I've looked at Craigslist to try to get a read on housing costs, but since I do not know the neighborhoods it is really hard to sort out. I've been asked not to discuss this opportunity with other employees so I can't quiz my colleagues. I'm sure the offer will represent my current number wrung through the HR department's cost of living calculator, but I want to be prepared with my own make or break number. Some indicators suggest I would not have nearly as much money left over after paying bills in San Francisco as I do in Portland.

Obviously, San Francisco is a helluva lot more interesting place than Portland - but is this going to be "worth it"?

**Yonder_River** · 06-29-2010, 02:24 PM

I work in mgmt consulting, particularly comp consulting. I'd first tell you that just because the cost of living is more does not mean you can demand that differential in your pay as well. The cost of labor is the index that employers look at when determining pay. Basically it's figured by looking at the going rate for a group of benchmark jobs. There is often a discrepancy between these two in highly desirable (or inverse relationship in undesirable) areas. You will suck up a good portion of that on your own, it's just the way it is in costly cities like S.F.

Most things will cost a little more in the bay area (consumables, health services, etc.) but the biggest factor is obviously housing.

I have access to surveyed info from reputable companies so it's your lucky day. The latest figures show SF to pay on average 18-19% higher than Portland. However, the cost of living in SF is 52% higher than Portland.

**GordonShumway** · 06-29-2010, 02:37 PM

Originally Posted by Yonder_River

I work in mgmt consulting, particularly comp consulting. I'd first tell you that just because the cost of living is more does not mean you can demand that differential in your pay as well. The cost of labor is the index that employers look at when determining pay. Basically it's figured by looking at the going rate for a group of benchmark jobs. There is often a discrepancy between these two in highly desirable (or inverse relationship in undesirable) areas. You will suck up a good portion of that on your own, it's just the way it is in costly cities like S.F.

Most things will cost a little more in the bay area (consumables, health services, etc.) but the biggest factor is obviously housing.

I have access to surveyed info from reputable companies so it's your lucky day. The latest figures show SF to pay on average 18-19% higher than Portland. However, the cost of living in SF is 52% higher than Portland.

52 fucking %! I can't imagine any city being 'cool' enough for that large a discrepancy. Not even if your apartment came with a hot chicks room stocked with women who will eagerly pleasure you every night of the week. I like San Francisco, don't get me wrong, but that's a whole lot of $$$ you'd need just to break even with where you're at now.

**TyWebb** · 06-29-2010, 02:37 PM

I've found cost of living numbers to be very misleading to the average single guy or couple with no kids. When I went form MN to NY, I was freaked out, but after the housing, the reality was that everything else was relatively similar. Sure, food was a bit more, but I just ate cheaper food. Car insurance was similar, as was health care.

I don't know what those calculators factor in, but in my experience, if you're not living like an idiot and sending two kids to college, then the difference between major US cities (save for housing) is reasonable.

**54-46** · 06-29-2010, 03:21 PM

The answer totally depends on what you like to do, besides ride on snow. For instance, when I was single, I lived in North Beach, walked to/from work downtown, went MTB riding or skiing on weekends, and got laid a ton. My apartment was small, but it didn't matter since I wasn't there much.

Bottom line: If you're a single dude in SF with a good job, good attitude, and without 3 eyes, then you're going to have a good time. If you're not having a good time, then you're probably spending too much time on the computer or going about it the wrong way; like this dude: [ame="http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/showthread.php?t=195172"]Teton Gravity Research Forums[/ame]

**Yonder_River** · 06-29-2010, 03:30 PM

Housing is everyone's biggest expense out of their budget and I would assume it heavily weights the cost of living differences as a result. What does a comparable one bedroom condo go for in Portland? ~$700-$800? San Fran ~$1,300-$1,500? No idea, just guessing.

Living standards can certainly be adjusted to ease the cost difference, but this should be an apples to apples comparison. It's $14/day or $300/month to park in downtown Seattle. What is it in SF, $20 or so? Maybe one would take the bus then which reduces your cost but also changes the comparison.

**54-46** · 06-29-2010, 03:54 PM

Bus/BART pass is $60. Many places in SF are 30 min. bus/BART ride from downtown, like if you're in the Mission, Noe Valley, the Marina, Cow Hollow, North Beach.

Monthly parking downtown, if you're a princess and drive every day, is $300-425, depending on location.

$30K/year after taxes might be about $20K/year, so that's $1667/month extra, which pays for your rent. Since your rent's paid, the amount you spend in PDX on rent could be put toward H&B.

Here's a place in a good neighborhood with parking for $1635/mo that's 1/2 block from the bus line (15 mins to/from downtown): http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/apa/1817485234.html

**3snowboards** · 06-29-2010, 04:31 PM

As a rule of thumb, the rent you pay shouldn't be close to 50% of your takehome pay.
30K/year in that city is IMO, poverty level, and that's for a single person.
I wood get rid of a car if you have one.

**skier666** · 06-29-2010, 04:34 PM

If your place doesn't have parking, you're looking at around $200/mo just to park your car in a garage. Just to park on the street in your neighborhood (except street cleaning days), you're looking at around $100 a year I believe. I'm not too sure as my new place has parking.

Walkable spots to Financial District are South of Market, North Beach, Chinatown, Nob Hill, and TenderNob. Not much going on in South of Market or Nob Hill to be able to walk to work, but North Beach is a pretty sweet area. I lived there for two years before selling that place and moving to Cow Hollow.

**54-46** · 06-29-2010, 05:06 PM

Originally Posted by 3snowboards

As a rule of thumb, the rent you pay shouldn't be close to 50% of your takehome pay.
30K/year in that city is IMO, poverty level, and that's for a single person.
I wood get rid of a car if you have one.

I thought he was looking at a pay increase, and that he was hoping to get up to $30K more/year than he currently makes, not make only $30K/year total.

**QuikR12** · 06-29-2010, 05:34 PM

I'm in a similar situation (PDX->SF) w/ a short stop in the Sacramento area for the summer. The Presidio area is pretty appealing, sort of like Forest Park in PDX, but it's a National Park with plenty of open space and trails to get away from the bustle of the city, right next to Golden Gate Park, and right off the beach. There is also a free shuttle to and from the financial districts for residents. I have heard some mixed reviews about housing there, but it seems pretty comparable to Portland. Hope that helps.

**runethechamp** · 06-29-2010, 06:01 PM

Depending on what you are looking for, there are plenty of spots in the east bay that will probably be cheaper and just as easy for commuting as SF itself. BART takes 25 minutes from the station I use to the financial district. You will get more sun and less fog, but also less of a city feel compared to SF.

**3snowboards** · 06-29-2010, 06:08 PM

I totally read the OP wrong.

**TomK** · 06-29-2010, 08:27 PM

Just be prepared to spend 4-5 hours or more driving each way to & from the snow.
That, or prepare to fly for a week somewhere once or twice a winter.

**ska21** · 06-29-2010, 09:19 PM

You're going to have to shave your big bushy beard, put gears on your bike, take off your ironic eye glasses, and drink something besides PBR.

**cramer** · 06-29-2010, 11:39 PM

30K a year is cool if you are fine with roommates. You arent getting a place of your own in a decent area for under like 900-1000. You need to find someone with a house in walnut creek, pleasant hill, martinez or Concord that has a pool and rent a room. Or if you want to do the city life, im sure you can get a room in a flat for 6-700. Id need someone to comment who has rented one recently off someone though in the city. Keep in mind, if you do the east bay thing, that cuts into your salary big time (BART) unless you do the friendly carpool arangement. Plan on paying a buck a day for that now (carpoolers being charged now).

Either way, 30K is what i moved down here making. i thought i was loaded, hehe. You can definately do 500 monthly on your rent and a cheap car payment and still be able to have a good time.

**tom111869** · 06-29-2010, 11:46 PM

Having lived in SF my opinion is stay in Portland. SF is dirty, crime-ridden, and expensive.

**MTT** · 06-29-2010, 11:57 PM

That said.

I have had allot of Jobs the past 35 years. And the 1 true thing is that you get your big ups in income when you change jobs.

A couple times I got the BIG Raise and boost in power @ the same Job only when I had Givin notice that I was moving on.

So if you are changing Jobs and not getting a significant increase in pay / Benifits (Don't Go) Hold out or Keep looking.

Just sayin

**Platinum Pete** · 06-30-2010, 11:48 AM

Thanks for the feedback everyone.
Just to clarify, the cost of living calculators suggest I'd need $30k more per year in San Francisco - I will certainly be making considerably more than $30k/year. I'm not earning enough to fly first class or buy a new Range Rover, but my tastes and lifestyle don't require that level of income. I understand that skiing will be further away than it is in Portland, but the skiing that will be accessible on those fewer trips will be a lot better than my local hill, so I figure that's a trade I can live with. Plus, my other favorite things to do are sailing, cycling, and trail running so I am confident the bay area can keep me occupied. My intent is to live in the city, someplace fun and interesting, not the burbs and probably not the east bay unless that's a pretty cool and easily accessible area (I don't know shit about geography or neighborhoods).
I can figure out a pretty good idea of my costs here in Portland, so I guess identifying the same costs in San Francisco is what I need to do. At the same time, this is a salary negotiation and I want to be paid as much as possible, so I definitely want to maximize the bump for changing locations. It's not what you make, it's what you keep - I want to stay on track towards my financial goals and continue to set up future opportunities.

The notes on neighborhoods from 666 and quikr12 were especially helpful, keep those coming.

**Kied** · 06-30-2010, 02:57 PM

You'll be fine. I've got friends that have lived there comfortably for years on a fraction of what you're making. After 15 years in Tahoe, I'm heading to Noe Valley to live with my girlfriend. SF's a damn cool town, you'll dig it.
Lots to do, lots of killer shows, and if you catch it just right you can leave the Financial District and be at Squaw in less than 3 hrs.

If it were me working in FD, I'd check out Cow Hollow, kind of a haul, but the Filmore area has a lot to offer. Hayes is pretty cool too, and a straight shot to downtown. Everyone else already mentioned a bunch of good options, the only thing to be weary of is The Tenderloin.

**Platinum Pete** · 07-12-2010, 02:31 PM

Bump because I should get an offer this week. Any other thoughts or perspectives?

**Steven S. Dallas** · 07-12-2010, 03:04 PM

I've hung out in the Dolores Park/Duboce Triangle zone a few times recently and like it over there. Easy access to the financial district (or "FiDi", if you're an asswipe) via the light rail and I think it's pretty affordable. Nice weather too.

North Beach is also cool. A walking commute is very sweet, although really the town is so small that you won't have a brutal commute unless you live on top of Twin Peaks or all the way out in Sunset. And even then, you're just sitting on the bus reading and listening to music for an extra 20 minutes, not fighting traffic.

If you like living in a real city with shitloads of stuff to do, and shitloads more awesome stuff to do within a couple hours' drive, all in a beautiful setting, well, San Francisco may be right for you. And from what I understand, rents are pretty depressed right now- so if there ever was a time, it might be now.

**skier666** · 07-12-2010, 03:26 PM

My son likes the kid parks on the North side of town if that helps your decision

The one in the Presidio has water features!!!!!

**Steven S. Dallas** · 07-12-2010, 03:28 PM

I almost left out another SF bonus- sneaker shopping advice from skier666.

Life-altering.

**Platinum Pete** · 07-12-2010, 04:11 PM

Thanks for the additional advice.
This option comes at a pretty crazy time for me and it is very hard to sort out what I want to do and how to put a price on it. Since I'm recently single again it helps that I'm only making decisions for myself, but then again my family is all here and we've been through some tough shit together over the past few months (dad's quad-bypass, big relationship changes, deaths in the family, etc). It's scary to think about not being there for them should the next thing come up - they've had my back in a strong way lately.
Thinking about my own long term goals, neither Portland nor San Fran are perfect fits. The big problems with SF are expense and distance from family (plus I will die in an earthquake or terror attack). The problems with Portland are a lack of opportunity and some missing resources. I thought I'd be moving to Seattle within a few years to cure all that.