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  1. #1
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    Clear Creek guide arrested for assisting his client.

    http://www.denverpost.com/ci_15278256

    Some great comments after the story. Reason #34,568,347 I hate cops.

    Dear Sheriff's office,

    Earlier, one of our highly trained river guides rescued a swimmer in distress from Clear Creek.

    We would like to take this opportunity to apologize for saving the aforementioned swimmer. It will never happen again.

    We recognize our mistake, and the next time we are guiding a rafting trip and someone falls out of the raft, we will leave the stranded person in the river until your personnel arrive.

    Sincerely,

    Me, on behalf of Arkansas Valley Adventures
    Richard W
    Last edited by Pinner; 06-11-2010 at 05:15 PM.

  2. #2
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    A few things aren't clear to me:
    1. They said they lost contact with the girl for 30-45 minutes.

    Does that mean
    a. The guide lost the girl, the girl eventually found a rock to cling to, someone else called it in and/or the police found her and were gearing up for a rescue when the guide finally figured out where she was and jumped in before the cops were ready?

    b. The guide lost the girl, the girl eventually found a rock to cling to, the guide found her called the police and proceeded with his rescue while they were on the way?

    I think knowing which (or any other details) is important before we decide who the dumbass is. Although, I do feel as though him being arrested is overboard (get it?).

    I'm torn. It sounds like he jumped in fairly unprepared beyond his knowledge. What was the river flowing at? Did he get to her and tell her to "hang on" while he swam her out? Rescue ropes or anything else to ensure her safety? What if he missed her locations or had to be rescued himself?

    All in all, he got the job done and that's most important. Beyond that, I don't have any armchair quarterbacking.

  3. #3
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    That article blows dick. One of the most unimpressive pieces of journalism I have seen in quite awhile and that is saying a lot.

  4. #4
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    Seems fishy....and seems Bullshit on the part of cops for arresting him after the fact.

    I, too, would need some additional info.

    Was the river above flood-stage, perhaps? If so, Rescue squads have a whole different parameter of logistics to deal with, and yes, they DO also have to ensure the safety of the rescuer, such thinking is SOP.

    What is NOT SOP is arresting the guy AFTER he swam over and rscued the girl. I can see them taking him aside and lecturing him, but NOT arresting him.

    I think the real reason the guy got arrested, is because he took things into his own hands....and cops ABSOLUTELY hate being flouted like that!!

    If it was a fast moving creek with lots of white-water, it is EASY to lose sight of a swimmer. And the current moves DAMN fast, so I can see her floating 1/2 mile downriver...the reason it took the guy 30 minutes to locate her.

    One thing about water-rescues is that you can't assume that just because the swimmer has been clinging to a rock for 15 minutes doesn't mean she will be able to cling for 15 more minutes while you do a "book rescue", with all it's attendant gear.

    He may have been watching her AND watching the cops waiting for equipment, etc and decided something had to be done NOW.

    I am sure he evaluated the water and rock conditions before he entered the water for his rescue-swim.

    Perhaps the guy became belligerant while being lectured. Cops hate that TOO. Something happens to cops once they are awarded their first gun and cuffs. The good cops don't let that perceived power affect them. The guys that were dicks BEFORE becoming cops , just continue being dicks...only with a badge, this time.

  5. #5
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    From what I heard, the guide found a stretch of water safe to swim accross and reached the girl. I do believe he had safety set when they brought them back. The guide swam across to make contact with the girl after she took a 1/4 mile swim through class IV water, SOmething that is super important to do when you are dealing with somebody unfamiliar with whitewater.She was on the other bank I'm sure freezing her ass off scared to shit.

    The guide did what needed to be done and the rescuers/sherriff went on a power struggle.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alaskan Rover View Post
    Seems fishy....and seems Bullshit on the part of cops for arresting him after the fact.

    I, too, would need some additional info.

    Was the river above flood-stage, perhaps? If so, Rescue squads have a whole different parameter of logistics to deal with, and yes, they DO also have to ensure the safety of the rescuer, such thinking is SOP.

    What is NOT SOP is arresting the guy AFTER he swam over and rscued the girl. I can see them taking him aside and lecturing him, but NOT arresting him.

    I think the real reason the guy got arrested, is because he took things into his own hands....and cops ABSOLUTELY hate being flouted like that!!

    If it was a fast moving creek with lots of white-water, it is EASY to lose sight of a swimmer. And the current moves DAMN fast, so I can see her floating 1/2 mile downriver...the reason it took the guy 30 minutes to locate her.

    One thing about water-rescues is that you can't assume that just because the swimmer has been clinging to a rock for 15 minutes doesn't mean she will be able to cling for 15 more minutes while you do a "book rescue", with all it's attendant gear.

    He may have been watching her AND watching the cops waiting for equipment, etc and decided something had to be done NOW.

    I am sure he evaluated the water and rock conditions before he entered the water for his rescue-swim.

    Perhaps the guy became belligerant while being lectured. Cops hate that TOO. Something happens to cops once they are awarded their first gun and cuffs. The good cops don't let that perceived power affect them. The guys that were dicks BEFORE becoming cops , just continue being dicks...only with a badge, this time.
    That section of the creek has a class 4, this is the worst part of the section she would have floated, if that helps your decision.

  7. #7
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    Wow, where there guides with the people in that last video? Uhhhh, like paddle and stuff.

  8. #8
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    Here is a link to another discussion on MountainBuzz

    http://www.mountainbuzz.com/forums/f...tml#post189310

  9. #9
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    My take on this:
    The guide flipped his raft and LOST the girl.
    Apparently, SOMEBODY eventually figured out where the girl was, A LONG TIME LATER! At this point the rescue squad AND the shitting-bricks raft guide converged on opposite shore from girl.
    THEN, obviously, shitting-bricks raft guide went for the save AFTER rescue squad told him not to.
    IMHO, this was a bad day for the rafting company. Their system broke down and they lost a client. They might have what is considered a good safety system for running trips, but today it didn't hold up to the test. Sucks for them, sucks for CO rafting, sucks for the guide who lost the girl. Sucks for the girl who could certainly could have died.
    A competent safety kayak would have definitely helped A LOT.
    Cops suck at rescuing in whitewater. Rescue squads suck at rescuing in whitewater. Raft guides are great at rescuing in whitewater. Cops hate it when people do what they were told not to do, despite logic.

  10. #10
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    I heard the rescuer was not the original guide.Clear creek sheriff's office is small. DA was the same dude who tried to nail Kobe....

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by SLSki View Post
    Wow, where there guides with the people in that last video? Uhhhh, like paddle and stuff.
    It's basically an amusement park ride, groups of 4-5 rafts go by my house
    at least every 5 minutes.

  12. #12
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    [QUOTE]It's basically an amusement park ride/QUOTE]
    thats the attitude that most swimmers on these trips have. . . .. . . .

  13. #13
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    [quote=brannen;2891751]
    It's basically an amusement park ride/QUOTE]
    thats the attitude that most swimmers on these trips have. . . .. . . .
    I should have said "to them" at the end. They always seem appalled when I give a friendly hoot when they just stand in the middle of the road.

    Personally, the creek scares the shit out of me when it's like this.

  14. #14
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    [quote=brannen;2891751]
    It's basically an amusement park ride/QUOTE]
    thats the attitude that most swimmers on these trips have. . . .. . . .

    I always compare WW to a rollercoaster BUt ... with no on off switch

    if the po-lice were there they must have been called at which point , its their game,their bat & ball and it sounds to me like buddy got arrested because the po-lice told him not to interfer but he did ?

  15. #15
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by TacocaT View Post
    Read it. Stand up guy. I hope he's got an atorney that's ready to hunt for blood because all I can tell is this is a clear miscarriage of justice.
    Best of luck Snodgrass.

  17. #17
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    I think arresting him is some BS. That Sheriff is a retard for arresting him. Surely charges won't stick.

    Just some observations and factoids:

    1. The Denver Post article was horribly written lacking tons and tons of details form each side. You'd think from reading that article the girl was still in the water and the guide jumped in and pulled her out single hande! Hell, the local rag did a (not much) better job http://www.lcni5.com/cgi-bin/c2.cgi?...45818040040001

    2. Snodgrass's version of the story is very different from the rescuers side (which still didn't make it sound like an arrest was warranted).

    3. According to the rescuers, they had arrived significantly before the guide and had good verbal contact with the girl who had self rescued and was probably dry by that point.

    4. From the guide's story she swam more like 1.5 miles not, not 0.5 miles that was reported.

    5. There are tons of rafting companies in Clear Creek. Their swiftwater rescue team is out multiple times a day for people getting dumped.

    My Conclusions:

    1. Freelancing at rescues can lead to some SERIOUS problems. Your first goal is to make no more patients. If one hand doesn't know what the other is doing, you can very quickly end in delays at best and disaster at worse.

    2. The guide was out of line, but NOT in an arrestable sort of way.

    3. Rescuers are used to bystanders getting in the way. Usually, they are looky-loos and well meaning but unqualified good samaritans. Sometimes they are really qualified people and the rescuers use their help. However, the assumption is the former until proven otherwise. "All doctors at the scene of a car wreck are proctologists until proven otherwise."

    4. I think things could have gone differently if the guide had calmed down and talked to someone with authority instead of getting butthurt from the instinctual reaction of some some rescuer underling who didn't know who the heck he was. If instead of trying to conduct his own competing rescue, had he gone directly to those with jurisdiction and said "these are our expertise, experience, capabilities, and plan. Can we execute in support?" then he might have been told "sweet! Do it!" We'll never know.

    THE BIGGEST PROBLEM:

    Here is what bothers me most: AVA putting 13 year old girls from TX in rafts piloted by guides who can't make the Kermit's takeout with the clear creek at peak flow which means going from a III run they signed up for into a long IV+/V- stretch, then dumping the clients in the drink and then losing contact with them for 30-45 minutes.
    Quote Originally Posted by blurred
    skiing is hiking all day so that you can ski on shitty gear for 5 minutes.

  18. #18
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by jm2e View Post
    Read it. Stand up guy. I hope he's got an atorney that's ready to hunt for blood because all I can tell is this is a clear miscarriage of justice.
    Best of luck Snodgrass.
    Hope he sues the crap out of them and gets millions.
    Yes, that money would come from us the taxpayer, but unfortunately it is about the only thing that gets their attention. I would much rather have it that their is a charge like unlawful imprisonment and the sheriff would be fined / spend time in jail if found guilty. Until then we will just have to basically sue ourselves.

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