Snowbird expansion proposal

[skiski]

Say what you will about Mr. Bass, but, currently, four generations of our family thank his vision, tenacity, business acumen, pure love of the mountains, and his willingness to listen to Ted Johnson and buy, improve, and share some of the world's choicest ski real estate with the world.

Considering that this transplanted texan had the foresight during the past 40 years to end up buying and/or controlling 17,000 acres of the Wasatch Range is mind boggling. And, when you realize that only 2,500 acres of that 17,000 acres is currently lift-served, you kinda get a small glimpse of what he envisions as Utah's Ski Future for the next few decades.

Personal wealth and greed do not drive multi-millionaire octogenarians like Mr. Bass. However, creating an environmentally sensitive, 'ski mecca' legacy, obviously does.

You are right. Snowbird, indeed all of Utah skiing, is nothing but the product of Dick's love. When I go there, I am enveloped by a sense of harmony with the world, and, of course, an overwhelming sense of Dick's love.

And to think, He built the whole thing out of nothing. Just a poor farm boy from Texas who loved to ski so much, that He drove to Utah and sculpted the beautiful Wasatch mountains out of empty desert, with His bare hands. And of course, even with the beautiful mountains that He greated out of His pure and infinite love of the mountains, Utah still would not be a ski mecca if it were not for that beautiful temple to the mountains known as the Cliff Lodge. I mean, mountains are pretty and all, but the Cliff Lodge is stunningly beautiful.

And yes, all of His expansions, both past and future, are done of the desire to create a lasting legacy to the environment (which He created) and to skiing. Obviously Dick has no need for money. That's what's awesome about rich people. They are only driven to make money to a certain extent. Once a man has $100 million or so, he never seeks more. Instead, he starts to give back, to the people, to the environment. All Dick wants is to see people ski. He doesn't care if he makes money. That's why Snowbird lift tickets have been free ever since Dick decided he has enough money. Heck, he doesn't even care if people ski Snowbird. He will buy you climbing skins, or a lift ticket to another resort if Snowbird does not suit your fancy.

It's a common misconception that Dick wants to expand Snowbird so He can make more money. That could not be farther from the truth. He expands Snowbird so He can protect the mountains He created. Hikers and backcountry skiers wear down the mountains with their uphill travel. But, if the mountains are all with Snowbird, Dick can make sure that they never feel the sting of a hiking boot, or the burn of a skin track. Once within Snowbird, mountains feel only the loving touch of grading equipment (to make sure that their slopes are appropriate for all persons, regardless of skill level). And, of course, in the summer, mountains within Snowbird are constantly massaged by the healing hands of the ATV tire. Hopefully, one day, the entire Wasatch will be under Dick's loving care.

Yes, Dick is great. If only the whole world was as selfless as Dick.

[Johnny Deep]

^^

This!

[wildskizer]

Yo endless there is still a bit of Bass jizz on your chin bro...

Laughed SO HARD I nearly threw up!!! Quote of the month!

Cheers

[thedrew55]

Good bye solo runs down the bookends. Damn.

Don't want to be too butthurt since I don't BC in that area, but it would definitely add more traffic to some "less" traveled areas. Why not add more inbounds hike-able terrain in the meantime?

Dick is going the wrong way with The Bird, has been for years. Why try to make a mountain that is not "family friendly" or even average EC skier friendly into a destination resort? The terrain is too tough for that crowd and the canyon doesn't support that kind of traffic or lodging.

[beaterdit]

Say what you will about Mr. Bass, but, currently, four generations of our family thank his vision, tenacity, business acumen, pure love of the mountains, and his willingness to listen to Ted Johnson and buy, improve, and share some of the world's choicest ski real estate with the world.

Considering that this transplanted texan had the foresight during the past 40 years to end up buying and/or controlling 17,000 acres of the Wasatch Range is mind boggling. And, when you realize that only 2,500 acres of that 17,000 acres is currently lift-served, you kinda get a small glimpse of what he envisions as Utah's Ski Future for the next few decades.

Personal wealth and greed do not drive multi-millionaire octogenarians like Mr. Bass. However, creating an environmentally sensitive, 'ski mecca' legacy, obviously does.

Huh?

679

[Johnny Deep]

Most octogenarians listen to Slim Whitman.





Just in case any Martians show up.

[Utahrd]

look what i read:

http://backcountrybeacon.com/2010/07...ore-lobbyists/

[StroupSkier]

Say what you will about Snowbird's expansion plans, and some of the other Utah resorts' plans, but i still think getting that terrain in bounds will be a good idea.

I wonder what tune people will be singing 20 years from now if all that land is locked out and the population and skier days have doubled.

[Endlessseason]

Yo endless there is still a bit of Bass jizz on your chin bro
Next you'll be telling me he has a vision for the chuitna and he's not just gonna be strip mining for shitty coal to sell to China
Well thankfully SOC and a lot of others have visions of wilderness may not be big in your generations but it is to others

You know me better than that. I've never implied he's an altruist. I'm not proclaiming he's the best thing that ever happened to Utah skiing (though some can convincingly make that argument). I don't claim him as my BFF. I haven't had him over for dinner (although, yes, I've had lunches and meetings with him over the years).

Am I saying he doesn't need money? Of course not. Snowbird still needs millions over the next several years to continue cleanup of the heavy metal pollution leaching from the LCC mines into the water supply since the 1800's. But, at 81, he doesn't have to personally work. He's hired top-notch, independent, smart people who could run his business interests for him.

I am grateful that organizations like SOC that have provided important counterbalancing to Bass's drive and his almost stream-of-consciousness style of envisioning the future. Together--Bass, SOC, the Forest Service, Ono, and others, have helped shape LCC into what it is today. Bass and Wells, unbridled, could have (and likely would have) turned the Bird into Disneyland: Wasatch Divison. That would have been...NOT good.

I DO, however, believe he is the ONLY guy on earth who could have, or even would have, saved Snowbird from bankruptcy less than 20 years ago. It is inarguable that he singlehandedly saved Snowbird from winding up in the hands of ASC, Intrawest, Vail Resorts, or foreign investors.

If you ski in Utah, you'd be a hypocrite to dismiss or condemn Dick Bass while at the same time consuming ANY of the fruits of his efforts. IMHO, of course.

[schindlerpiste]

Stroup makes a really good point about the crowds. Utah wants the tourist income One can argue that LCC is already overcrowded. IMHO, Snowbird will never be a family destination. It's not for the novice skier. We have P.C. and, to a lesser extent, Sillitude for that. Snowbird is too high up for most people. Sleeping at the Cliff, or other Alta/Bird accommodations can be uncomfortable. That extra 1000 feet really affects ice coasters.
Save our Canyons...Save our Canyons! Those guys hate everything. Bummer, but the reality is that in the future SLC backcountry advocates are going to have to ski what they can, while they can, and be forced further and further out. Pretty soon, Crow's Feet and Timp. will be common slogs. Otherwise, the Uinta's will become more and more an option.
It's sort of like the wolves, bison, mountain lion and other wild animals indigenous to the area. They get pushed further and further out for the good of the masses.
Like it or not, it's going to happen. It may not be this year, but it's right around the corner.

[Slaag Master]

mr duck bass

[Rooster]

I skied Timp before it was cool.

[lionelhutz]

Am I saying he doesn't need money? Of course not. Snowbird still needs millions over the next several years to continue cleanup of the heavy metal pollution leaching from the LCC mines into the water supply since the 1800's.

This doesn't come out of their pockets. Trust Me on that.

If you ski in Utah, you'd be a hypocrite to dismiss or condemn Dick Bass while at the same time consuming ANY of the fruits of his efforts. IMHO, of course.

He makes it snow 600 inches a year at 4-6% SWE? Damn.


And personally- I'm not really for or against expanding. I don't know enough about the watershed, environmental impact of backcountry use to have an opinion.

[skifishbum]

I's all good endless your original post just sounded a bit like a e knob job for DB. skiski post nailed it. Listened to a great presentation by Liam Fitzgerald on the early days of the bird I think he mentioned Ted Johnson a lot more than Dick. I give Dick credit for devloping a world class resort. I think it's great a lot of people have a chance to enjoy utahs mountains. But how much is to much. If you want to give your $$$ to someone who wants to use it to strip mine AK your call just don't tell me how enviormentally conscious he is. I I would hope if your offspring looks across to superior and asks dad when can we ski there you respond when you're ready and not when there is a tram to get us there. Yah know brighton hasn't changed much under boyne I'm not sure the bird would be much different under other ownership. Never skied the bird last season guess i"m not a hypocite. Actually I may use some of my 30 days this season and be part of the overcrowding problem.
stroup the only way I forsee being locked out of the terrain a lot of us like to ski is if becomes part of a resort there doesn't need to be lifts on Flagstaff
lifts in silly fork a tram to the top of box elder. Allowing resorts to keep gobbling terrain is not the answer.
Anyhow the tune I'll be singing is Noth to Alaska now if I can just get the wife to listen
Shindler yeah the gears getting better more and more people are wanting to experience the bc but the day that more people whip out the skins and slog 4k instead of pulling out the wallet for lifts thankfully aint that close.
SOC doesn't hate everything just the loss of places where people are free to enjoy the mountains without having to pay to have them sanitized for our enjoyment.
Just as thankfully people had the vision to create our national park system and ensure those treasures are there and available for future generations

[monkeywrenchMoose]

SFB, Punctuation and paragraphs man.

[Slaag Master]

sfb - prophet of the wasatch

[StroupSkier]

Interesting thing about Utah though is one of the things they tout is a low skier density. And despite our complaints about how crowded it is, it's still nothing like CO.

Problem is that if you market the skiing like that and bring in more tourist the skier denisity advantage/angle goes away. So you got a nice Catch-22 on your hands.

Your also not going to make anyone happy. Are you going to piss off a few people by running a gondala up White Pine and a lift or two in Mary Ellen? Sure, ut your going to piss off a lot more people by running a lift right up flagstaff.

Bottom line is that if you want to keep the skier density where it is at for another generation then you need to add about 2000 acres or terrain. And if you want to keep the Wasatch Core as backcountry then adding Mary Ellen/White Pine to Snowbird and Rocky Point/Grizzly to Alta is about the only way to do that.

Stroup makes a really good point about the crowds. Utah wants the tourist income One can argue that LCC is already overcrowded. IMHO, Snowbird will never be a family destination. It's not for the novice skier. We have P.C. and, to a lesser extent, Sillitude for that. Snowbird is too high up for most people. Sleeping at the Cliff, or other Alta/Bird accommodations can be uncomfortable. That extra 1000 feet really affects ice coasters.
Save our Canyons...Save our Canyons! Those guys hate everything. Bummer, but the reality is that in the future SLC backcountry advocates are going to have to ski what they can, while they can, and be forced further and further out. Pretty soon, Crow's Feet and Timp. will be common slogs. Otherwise, the Uinta's will become more and more an option.
It's sort of like the wolves, bison, mountain lion and other wild animals indigenous to the area. They get pushed further and further out for the good of the masses.
Like it or not, it's going to happen. It may not be this year, but it's right around the corner.

[Johnny Deep]

Don't confuse complaining with being jaded.

[skiski]

Bottom line is that if you want to keep the skier density where it is at for another generation then you need to add about 2000 acres or terrain. And if you want to keep the Wasatch Core as backcountry then adding Mary Ellen/White Pine to Snowbird and Rocky Point/Grizzly to Alta is about the only way to do that.

But what about the next generation, and the one after that? Obviously, if we want to keep skier density where it is, we need to just put lifts up every drainage.

It doesn't work. The tri-canyons are a finite amount of space, and they have congestion problems. If you want to keep skier density low, you need to send more people elsewhere. Personally, I think the answer is more overnight lodging and resorty development at Snowbasin, and probably at PowMow one day.

Plus, another thing that keeps skier density down at the tri-canyons resorts is the fact that more and more people are touring. Give me easy access to touring and I'll stay away from your resorts most days. Put a lift up flagstaff, and I'll have to buy an alta season pass to access a lot of easy backcountry, then, as long as I have it, I might as well ski the area a bit more.

I am not against Snowbird going into Mary Ellen, just because it is rarely used (because Snowbird already blocked it off). If they get mary ellen in exchange for never going into White Pine and Flagstaff, it will be a worthwhile exchange. As the backcountry post someone linked noted, if Snowbird goes into Mary Ellen, they may one day put an access point up American Fork. I have mixed feelings on that, but generally, decreasing pressure on the LCC road would probably be good. Plus, if the road up Am Fk is improved and open all winter, it would probably help with some backcountry access down there.

[dfinn]

I am not against Snowbird going into Mary Ellen, just because it is rarely used (because Snowbird already blocked it off).

It may be rarely used by skiers but there are plenty of other people who enjoy going back there on a regular basis.

Also, I'm no expert but I don't see how they could possibly pull off putting in an AF access point back there. Even if they could, it would be a pretty long drive and would not make sense for most of the existing traffic that is driving up/down LCC.

[monkeywrenchMoose]

Been reading this thread with interest and today I was thinking about it in class. Got me thinking about somewhat of a tangent. Oh, wise maggots, please enlighten me.

In fishing, I believe that you can travel through private land by way of staying on a water way, (i.e. stay in the water) but as soon as you step on dry land you are trespassing. Is this correct?

Is there a similar law/clause for snow and land. If you are on the snow, then you are not on the land and therefore not trespassing?

As I write this, I'm beginning to think no, this doesn't apply to snow. Anybody know, i'm just wondering?

[thedrew55]

^^^True on the road up AF canyon. That would take as long as a drive up LCC, even if it were a beautiful road. I've made that drive plenty 'o' times when I was younger.^^^

[Johnny Deep]

In fishing, I believe that you can travel through private land by way of staying on a water way, (i.e. stay in the water) but as soon as you step on dry land you are trespassing. Is this correct?

No longer true in Utardia. They changed all of that last year to the chagrin of fisher persons. Property lines now meet in the middle of the stream. The justification was to include land as property as water levels drop over the summer. Stream dries up, property line is still intact, no interpretations needed.

[DLD in UT]

Is there a similar law/clause for snow and land. If you are on the snow, then you are not on the land and therefore not trespassing?

In Europe, yes, here not so much.

[yabyum]

I love me some 'bird, it is the Soviet era architecture ala Ceausescu that makes it special Hands off White Pine now and forever!