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  1. #76
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    I lived in Tucson for most of my life, and let me make sure everyone understands something, illegal immigrants who come here to work under the the radar at shitty jobs are ABSOLUTELY NOT the ones that people are concerned about, the problem we have is a HUGE HUGE HUGE gang/crime/DRUG problem in Tucson because that is the most profitable way for them work when they live here illegally, illegals don't stay in arizona to be farm workers, those ones go to california, they stay in arizona to deal drugs or run more illegals across the border (Which often ends in car crashes and gun fights, and high speed chases on the freeways). Simple as that, it's unfortunate that the legitimate hard working ones end up getting the raw deal in this because I honestly don't care if they are here, however there is a SERIOUS problem with the federal government's ability to cope with this, and Arizona is sick of it.

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by boarddad View Post
    Where do you guys get your information from? LaRaza? There are so many bad assumptions being made here it's really impossible to know where to start. If you're not going to read the bill, this thread really couldn't be more pointless.
    I read it.

    §11-1051(B) is potentially unconstitutional as a violation of the Fourth Amendment and Fourteenth Amendments, as is, to a lesser extent (E). (G) in that same sub-section is a citizen suit provision that could create major headaches for law enforcement agencies, although there is no constitutional issue.

    §13-2319(E) is also constitutionally questionable.

    There's some good stuff in there as well.

    Link to the text of the bill

    Edit: I'm not saying that something shouldn't be done, and I do empathize with the issues facing Arizona. But those provisions I cited above are a heavy-handed way of dealing with it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ernest_Hemingway View Post
    I realize there is not much hope for a bullfighting forum. I understand that most of you would prefer to discuss the ingredients of jacket fabrics than the ingredients of a brave man. I know nothing of the former. But the latter is made of courage, and skill, and grace in the presence of the possibility of death. If someone could make a jacket of those three things it would no doubt be the most popular and prized item in all of your closets.

  3. #78
    doughboyshredder Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Making a Pizza View Post
    I lived in Tucson for most of my life, and let me make sure everyone understands something, illegal immigrants who come here to work under the the radar at shitty jobs are ABSOLUTELY NOT the ones that people are concerned about, the problem we have is a HUGE HUGE HUGE gang/crime/DRUG problem in Tucson because that is the most profitable way for them work when they live here illegally, illegals don't stay in arizona to be farm workers, those ones go to california, they stay in arizona to deal drugs or run more illegals across the border (Which often ends in car crashes and gun fights, and high speed chases on the freeways). Simple as that, it's unfortunate that the legitimate hard working ones end up getting the raw deal in this because I honestly don't care if they are here, however there is a SERIOUS problem with the federal government's ability to cope with this, and Arizona is sick of it.
    Nice to hear this side of it. Sounds like the real solution is to end our insane drug war. Legalize and regulate all drugs. Take all of the profit out of the drug trade.

  4. #79
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    I'm tired of the "illegals pay no taxes" BS... they pay less taxes as they are not paying federal (and possibly state)income taxes. They do pay plenty of other excise, sales, and indirect taxes, as do their employers. So they are "getting a good deal" but not "getting stuff for free", as it were.

    And thanks, Making a Pizza that's interesting and solid info. I don't see the drug problems in my neck of the woods, only thing going on around here that I know of is the hipsters on e and the prep-school huffer crowd!

  5. #80
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    I think we should herd up all the TGR librosheep and ship them off to TJ or Juarez. Between ducking bullets and machetes they can discuss their feelings with one another.

    ...speaking of machetes - I can't wait till this one comes out!:


  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by doughboyshredder View Post
    Nice to hear this side of it. Sounds like the real solution is to end our insane drug war. Legalize and regulate all drugs. Take all of the profit out of the drug trade.
    Hey - I agree, but do you actually think this is going to happen any time soon? 'Cause if you do, you are on some heavy drugs brah!

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jer View Post
    I think we should herd up all the TGR librosheep and ship them off to TJ or Juarez. Between ducking bullets and machetes they can discuss their feelings with one another.

    ...speaking of machetes - I can't wait till this one comes out!:

    whoa, I think I need to get my hands on this movie and a bottle of tequila and sit down to enjoy some ass kicking. Looks like pure awesome!
    Education must be the answer, we've tried ignorance and it doesn't work!

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rip'nStick View Post
    whoa, I think I need to get my hands on this movie and a bottle of tequila and sit down to enjoy some ass kicking. Looks like pure awesome!
    It's not out yet. IMDB says post-production is done - should be soon. It does look very badass. Danny Trejo is one mean-looking hombre!

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viva View Post
    My Vortex was delivered just yesterday. Put it on my new AR build without delay. Certainly cool-looking, but I probably won't be able to try it out until next week. Jer, don't know what price you're looking at, but I paid $39 for mine.
    The 5.56 model is quite a bit less than the AK or even the normal-threaded 7.62 version. Still - $39 for the 5.56 is a good ten bucks cheaper than I've ever seen. Other companies sell flash supressors - the Vortex is billed as a flash eliminator. And it is. Plus - the one I've got on my .308 actually shrinks the groups a bit.

    Quote Originally Posted by blackhand View Post
    jer you are so edgy, how do you maintain such a badass lifestyle?
    I don't know.

  10. #85
    doughboyshredder Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Jer View Post
    Hey - I agree, but do you actually think this is going to happen any time soon? 'Cause if you do, you are on some heavy drugs brah!
    President Calderon has figured it out and made personal posession of most everything legal.

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by doughboyshredder View Post
    President Calderon has figured it out and made personal posession of most everything legal.
    Carlderon is not the president of the USA.

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jer View Post
    ...speaking of machetes - I can't wait till this one comes out!:

    Danny Trejo is soooo sexy!!!

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by jfost View Post
    I'm tired of the "illegals pay no taxes" BS... they pay less taxes as they are not paying federal (and possibly state)income taxes. They do pay plenty of other excise, sales, and indirect taxes, as do their employers. So they are "getting a good deal" but not "getting stuff for free", as it were.
    Plus, I always figured their low wages more than accounted for the fact that they pay no income tax.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tippster View Post
    Sometimes I think you guys are some of the smartest people on the web, other times I wonder if you were shaken as babies.

  14. #89
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    I'll admit to not knowing much about the subject, but with the technology to fly men to space, communicate wirelessely, clone shit, blow up the world, Etc... Can we not build a fucking wall that works?
    I gots the jacket with the blue fox fur

  15. #90
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    Yeah this is cut and paste from an email I got. Not saying the numbers are 100% correct but it should at least give you something to think about.




    Something to consider even if you don't live in California

    Joe Legal vs. Jose Illegal

    Here is an example of why hiring illegal aliens is not economically
    productive for the State of California ...

    You have 2 families..."Joe Legal" and "Jose Illegal". Both families have 2
    parents, 2 children and live in California. "Joe Legal" works in
    construction, has a Social Security Number, and makes $25.00 per hour with
    payroll taxes deducted...."Jose Illegal" also works in construction, has
    "NO" Social Security Number, and gets paid $15.00 cash "under the table".

    Joe Legal...$25.00 per hour x 40 hours $1000.00 per week, $52,000 per
    year.

    Now take 30% away for state federal tax, Joe Legal now has $31,231.00

    Jose Illegal...$15.00 per hour x 40 hours $600.00 per week, $31,200.00 per
    year. Jose Illegal pays no taxes... Jose Illegal now has $31,200.00

    Joe Legal pays Medical and Dental Insurance with limited coverage $1000.00
    per month, $12,000.00 per year. Joe Legal now has $19,231.00

    Jose Illegal has full Medical and Dental coverage through the state and
    local clinics at a cost of $0.00 per year. Jose Illegal still has $31,200.00

    Joe Legal makes too much money is not eligible for Food Stamps or welfare.
    Joe Legal pays for food $1,000.00 per month, $12,000.00 per year. Joe
    Legal now has $7,231.00

    Jose Illegal has no documented income and is eligible for Food Stamps and
    Welfare. Jose Illegal still has $31,200.00.

    Joe Legal pays rent of $1,000.00 per month. $12,000.00 per year. Joe Legal
    is now in the hole minus (-) $4,769.00

    Jose Illegal receives a $500 per month Federal rent subsidy. Jose Illegal
    pays rent. $500.00 per month. $6,000.00 per year Jose Illegal still has
    $31,200.00

    Joe Legal now works overtime on Saturdays or gets a part time job after
    work.

    Jose Illegal has nights and weekends off to enjoy with his family.

    Joe Legal's and Jose Illegal's children both attend the same school. Joe
    Legal pays for his children's lunches while Jose Illegal's children get a
    government sponsored lunch. Jose Illegal's children have an after school
    ESL program. Joe Legal's children go home.

    Joe Legal and Jose Illegal both enjoy the same Police and Fire Services,
    but Joe paid for them and Jose did not pay.
    The Worst mistakes, make the best memories.

  16. #91
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    Apr 2010
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    622
    Quote Originally Posted by Donkey Punch View Post
    Yeah this is cut and paste from an email I got. Not saying the numbers are 100% correct but it should at least give you something to think about.




    Something to consider even if you don't live in California

    Joe Legal vs. Jose Illegal

    Here is an example of why hiring illegal aliens is not economically
    productive for the State of California ...

    You have 2 families..."Joe Legal" and "Jose Illegal". Both families have 2
    parents, 2 children and live in California. "Joe Legal" works in
    construction, has a Social Security Number, and makes $25.00 per hour with
    payroll taxes deducted...."Jose Illegal" also works in construction, has
    "NO" Social Security Number, and gets paid $15.00 cash "under the table".

    Joe Legal...$25.00 per hour x 40 hours $1000.00 per week, $52,000 per
    year.

    Now take 30% away for state federal tax, Joe Legal now has $31,231.00

    Jose Illegal...$15.00 per hour x 40 hours $600.00 per week, $31,200.00 per
    year. Jose Illegal pays no taxes... Jose Illegal now has $31,200.00

    Joe Legal pays Medical and Dental Insurance with limited coverage $1000.00
    per month, $12,000.00 per year. Joe Legal now has $19,231.00

    Jose Illegal has full Medical and Dental coverage through the state and
    local clinics at a cost of $0.00 per year. Jose Illegal still has $31,200.00

    Joe Legal makes too much money is not eligible for Food Stamps or welfare.
    Joe Legal pays for food $1,000.00 per month, $12,000.00 per year. Joe
    Legal now has $7,231.00

    Jose Illegal has no documented income and is eligible for Food Stamps and
    Welfare. Jose Illegal still has $31,200.00.

    Joe Legal pays rent of $1,000.00 per month. $12,000.00 per year. Joe Legal
    is now in the hole minus (-) $4,769.00

    Jose Illegal receives a $500 per month Federal rent subsidy. Jose Illegal
    pays rent. $500.00 per month. $6,000.00 per year Jose Illegal still has
    $31,200.00

    Joe Legal now works overtime on Saturdays or gets a part time job after
    work.

    Jose Illegal has nights and weekends off to enjoy with his family.

    Joe Legal's and Jose Illegal's children both attend the same school. Joe
    Legal pays for his children's lunches while Jose Illegal's children get a
    government sponsored lunch. Jose Illegal's children have an after school
    ESL program. Joe Legal's children go home.

    Joe Legal and Jose Illegal both enjoy the same Police and Fire Services,
    but Joe paid for them and Jose did not pay.
    You're really fucking stupid if you believe that illegal immigrants get food stamps welfare, and federal rent subsidies.

  17. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by OSECS View Post
    This should be for the win right here.
    wait wait... 30 deaths of the people coming in or deaths of hick militiamen flouting their gun rights by shooting "browny's"?
    Talking shit about a pretty sunset.

  18. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pillsbury View Post
    You're really fucking stupid if you believe that illegal immigrants get food stamps welfare, and federal rent subsidies.
    He's really fucking stupid because he posted something using "Jose Illegal" as an example of illegal immigrants.

  19. #94
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    Every illegal I have known, and I have worked in a lot of restaurants, construction, and played a lot of soccer, had a fake drivers license AND Social Security Card, and was on those businesses payrolls'- so they were actually paying taxes.

    Maybe someone should look at the meat packing industry- what percentage of their workforce is legal?

    My favorite was 10 years ago here in Jackson, all the contractors were anti Mexican- until they saw how hard they worked- a lot harder than the meth head rednecks they had employed previously.

    Lastly- anyone who is willing to sacrifice liberty for security deserves neither.

  20. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperGaper View Post
    Every illegal I have known, and I have worked in a lot of restaurants, construction, and played a lot of soccer, had a fake drivers license AND Social Security Card, and was on those businesses payrolls'- so they were actually paying taxes.

    Maybe someone should look at the meat packing industry- what percentage of their workforce is legal?

    My favorite was 10 years ago here in Jackson, all the contractors were anti Mexican- until they saw how hard they worked- a lot harder than the meth head rednecks they had employed previously.

    Lastly- anyone who is willing to sacrifice liberty for security deserves neither.
    anyone who has worked with an illegal realizes most of this anti-immigration shit is fucking hype created by lazy union workers trying not to get replaced. i worked with a guy who fucking ran circles around me, never got tired, always smiled while i was sweating and bitching, it really put the whole issue into perspective for me. anyone who says that these people don't work hard or are mooching are deluding themselves
    Talking shit about a pretty sunset.

  21. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pillsbury View Post
    You're really fucking stupid if you believe that illegal immigrants get food stamps welfare, and federal rent subsidies.
    Your right, no illegal alien has ever had stolen a SS#, or gotten forged documents. Oh and once an illegal family has a child that is born here, that child is a citizen. This allows that child to collect all of those services, all of which go directly to their family, or does that not count since those services where technically garnered to a US citizen?

    I have worked with many illegal immigrants and they where all good guys. (Yes they where all guys since I have been in the construction industry for years) But that doesn't change the fact that they are here illegally, and know how to take advantage of our rules. I don't have the magic answer, but I do believe that what arizona is trying to do is a step in the right direction. As a country we are too worried about hurting peoples feelings. I would also love to hear the opinions from a bunch of nationalized immigrants and what they really think about all this, since I am betting the majority here are middle class white people who have no worry about being asked for documentation if they where to be pulled over in Az.
    The Worst mistakes, make the best memories.

  22. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackhand View Post
    anyone who has worked with an illegal realizes most of this anti-immigration shit........
    Are we talking about being anti-immigration or anti illegal immigration? There is a HUGE difference. I am all for LEGAL immigration, but very against the other.
    The Worst mistakes, make the best memories.

  23. #98
    doughboyshredder Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Donkey Punch View Post
    since I am betting the majority here are middle class white people who have no worry about being asked for documentation if they where to be pulled over in Az.
    You don't see anything wrong with your statement?

  24. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by doughboyshredder View Post
    You don't see anything wrong with your statement?
    Thats exactly why I want to hear from nationalized immigrants. Because this law will have very little, if any day to day affect on me, or many others on this board. Its the people who will be asked for ID and proof that I want to talk to. Because so far my friends, and other contractors I have talked to that are of Mexican heritage, say that they have no problem with this. They aren't scared to show proof or citizenship/residency, and most say that it is a necessary evil. One local carpenter even told me this. "Fuck those guys, I did it the right way, yeah it took a lot of work, but it was worth it. Why should they get any sort of reward for breaking the law?" He is from Bulgaria though and just one person so I have no idea of the general consensus among legal immigrants, especially ones that are of hispanic decent.
    The Worst mistakes, make the best memories.

  25. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Donkey Punch View Post
    Thats exactly why I want to hear from nationalized immigrants. Because this law will have very little, if any day to day affect on me, or many others on this board. Its the people who will be asked for ID and proof that I want to talk to. Because so far my friends, and other contractors I have talked to that are of Mexican heritage, say that they have no problem with this. They aren't scared to show proof or citizenship/residency, and most say that it is a necessary evil. One local carpenter even told me this. "Fuck those guys, I did it the right way, yeah it took a lot of work, but it was worth it. Why should they get any sort of reward for breaking the law?" He is from Bulgaria though and just one person so I have no idea of the general consensus among legal immigrants, especially ones that are of hispanic decent.
    All I can tell you is pretty much every mexican person I know who i've talked to *these people were all legal, born in the US of A mexicans* were all super offended and whining about racism and all that...but I suspect the opinions of people who came here legally would differ quite a bit from this opinions, it seems like the people who always get so offended about shit like this are the groups this sort of stuff isn't even targeting

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