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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by QuikR12 View Post
    Having lived in AZ for a year working for a federal agency directly affected by immigration issues, I can tell you personally that Illegal immigration is a huge. fucking. problem. The year I was there, there were well over 30 deaths and many more severe injuries from border crossing related accidents or shootings around the Yuma crossing points alone. Looking at the problem first hand from an eyewitness account, you can't blame AZ for taking initiative when the agency charged with the responsibility to manage the problem (homeland security) has been somewhat ineffective. To be surprised that the State of AZ has done something that is ethically questionable and not politically correct is foolish; AZ is the contends with UT as the most radically conservative state. For example, they were the last to recognize MLK day as a holiday and still don't conform to daylight savings.

    Immigration is a huge drain on state resources and funds. There are literally hundreds of thousands of illegals freeloading of state funded schools, medical services, transportation, etc. To attempt to regulate this is not only warranted, but absolutely necessary. They might have just not found the most politically tactful stroke to do so.
    This should be for the win right here.
    "You damn colonials and your herds of tax write off dressage ponies". PNWBrit

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spats View Post
    Let me get this straight:

    -We want free health care, free food, and free services for everyone who can't otherwise afford them
    -We don't want mandatory ID, endemic video surveillance, or other intrusions on privacy and free travel
    -We don't want to have tough immigration and visa laws, we don't want to require proof of legal status to work here or send money back to other countries, and we don't want to have tough border checkpoints

    Does anyone else see the problem here?

    We can't have all these things at the same time: you can't put up a big sign advertising "FREE STUFF" and not have people show up asking for it.

    So everyone in this thread needs to answer this question:
    Which of the above things are you willing to give up?
    It isn't nearly that simple, most reasonable people agree that we need to curb illegal immigration but nobody has any fucking idea how you do that.

    The boarder is long and we are broke so beyond making Mexico a place people can actually make a living in I can't see how your going to stop a fuck ton of really determined people making it across the boarder.

    The federal gov't has failed miserably in this area and so one state is trying to look like they are doing something about it. Its stupid and won't change shit but you can't really fault them as its the normal response for a state actor. When they see a rise in a particular illegal act they almost never figure out why they just make said act more illegal. Its retarded but the only other alternative is actually trying to address the problem and that is just way too much work.
    You're gonna stand there, owning a fireworks stand, and tell me you don't have no whistling bungholes, no spleen spliters, whisker biscuits, honkey lighters, hoosker doos, hoosker donts, cherry bombs, nipsy daisers, with or without the scooter stick, or one single whistling kitty chaser?

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spats View Post
    We don't want to have tough immigration and visa laws, we don't want to require proof of legal status to work here
    Actually that's exactly what a whole bunch of us have been saying...
    Quote Originally Posted by Downbound Train View Post
    And there will come a day when our ancestors look back...........

  4. #54
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    Guest visas. That would be a win win. We can know who (for the most part )is coming in. Tax a portion of the wages and help offset some of the costs associated with illegals and social services.

    No guest visa, you get deported. Migrant workers can still make a better wage than in Mexico, and we keep cheaper lettuce.
    "You damn colonials and your herds of tax write off dressage ponies". PNWBrit

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by PNWbrit View Post
    Actually that's exactly what a whole bunch of us have been saying...
    That's all well and good. but a completely open border isn't a good thing when the people coming over that border place huge burdens on state social service organizations.
    "You damn colonials and your herds of tax write off dressage ponies". PNWBrit

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by PNWbrit View Post
    You're asked for your drivers licence, vehicle registration and insurance after a traffic stop.

    Your i.d. at a border crossing by a federal agent.

    This law is requiring local law enforcement to require proof of legal status on all occasions.

    You really can't see the difference?
    No border crossing exit 11 off 91 south in VT.
    People should learn endurance; they should learn to endure the discomforts of heat and cold, hunger and thirst; they should learn to be patient when receiving abuse and scorn; for it is the practice of endurance that quenches the fire of worldly passions which is burning up their bodies.
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  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by OSECS View Post
    That's all well and good. but a completely open border isn't a good thing when the people coming over that border place huge burdens on state social service organizations.
    I wasn't advocating a completely open border?

    But I recognize that completely sealing the border is impossible.

    Policing the existing laws and prosecuting Americans who game the system is the only answer to this.
    Quote Originally Posted by Downbound Train View Post
    And there will come a day when our ancestors look back...........

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by PNWbrit View Post
    I wasn't advocating a completely open border?

    But I recognize that completely sealing the border is impossible.

    Policing the existing laws and prosecuting Americans who game the system is the only answer to this.
    So how do we address the problem of the hundreds of thousands of existing illegals in our States? Even if we prosecute employers who hire illegals, do you think the illegals themselves will just leave? We'll only have an increase of welfare begging illegals and an increase in petty crime (car theft, burglaries, etc) that will come around to bite each of us, at one point or another, in the farkin ass. Point is, problem #1: illegals currently residing in states... problem #2: new illegals coming across the border.

    Addressing one of these does little to nothing to address the other.

    to add: homeland security does nothing to address problem 1. They do maintain regular traffic stops within the vicinity of border crossings, but that does nothing to catch illegals residing beyond these areas.

  9. #59
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    Are you serious? You don't see anything wrong with this? Except that it is a step 50 years back for our country into racism?
    I gots the jacket with the blue fox fur

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by QuikR12 View Post
    So how do we address the problem of the hundreds of thousands of existing illegals in our States? Even if we prosecute employers who hire illegals, do you think the illegals themselves will just leave? We'll only have an increase of welfare begging illegals and an increase in petty crime (car theft, burglaries, etc) that will come around to bite each of us, at one point or another, in the farkin ass. Point is, problem #1: illegals currently residing in states... problem #2: new illegals coming across the border.

    Addressing one of these does little to nothing to address the other.

    to add: homeland security does nothing to address problem 1. They do maintain regular traffic stops within the vicinity of border crossings, but that does nothing to catch illegals residing beyond these areas.
    Identifying, rounding up and forcibly deporting illegals by the hundreds of thousands might be a bigger problem and worse for your states.

    But as an exercise in futility how exactly do you envision the government undertaking such a project?
    Quote Originally Posted by Downbound Train View Post
    And there will come a day when our ancestors look back...........

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDaddyLionfish View Post
    Are you serious? You don't see anything wrong with this? Except that it is a step 50 years back for our country into racism?
    Enough with the friggin racism call outs. The fact that the overwhelming majority of illegals are Mexican is a fact, nothing more than that. It's economic and legal not racist.

    If this were Canada instead of Mexico with the same economic issues plaguing Mexico, would you call it racist then ??
    "You damn colonials and your herds of tax write off dressage ponies". PNWBrit

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by OSECS View Post
    Enough with the friggin racism call outs. The fact that the overwhelming majority of illegals are Mexican is a fact, nothing more than that. It's economic and legal not racist.

    If this were Canada instead of Mexico with the same economic issues plaguing Mexico, would you call it racist then ??
    I didn't read any of the thread. But anyways, you don't see how this is unfair to mexicans and colored people that aren't illegal immigrants?
    I gots the jacket with the blue fox fur

  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDaddyLionfish View Post
    I didn't read any of the thread. But anyways, you don't see how this is unfair to mexicans and colored people that aren't illegal immigrants?
    I think the point is that yes, this is unfair to Hispanics and Latinos who are here legally. However, the fact remains that the majority of illegal immigrants coming into the country are of Hispanic/Latino origin. Inconvenience a portion of the population by requiring them to provide proof of citizenship, or inconvenience the entirety of the country by allowing illegal immigrants to come into the country and tax our welfare programs.

  14. #64
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    I was born in Canada and brought into this country illegally as a child. I just got back from Tucson and thought about this new law. I'm a US citizen now, but have no way to prove that to some AZ cop. But the hotel bartender told me I didn't have to worry since I'm white.

  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jer View Post
    Smith Enterprise is (I believe) based in AZ. They make the Vortex - the most kickass flash suppressor in exsistence. I've got one on my .308 and I was going to just put a cheap Phantom knock-off on my AK, but since this whole SF boycott thing came up I'm gonna spend the money to put a Vortex on it.[/URL]
    My Vortex was delivered just yesterday. Put it on my new AR build without delay. Certainly cool-looking, but I probably won't be able to try it out until next week. Jer, don't know what price you're looking at, but I paid $39 for mine.

    Considering Calif's ridiculous new laws on ammo purchases, I probably start buying all my ammunition at the Tucson and Phoenix gun shows.
    Daniel Ortega eats here.

  16. #66
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    Isn't the answer to help Mexico? End the drug war, help Mexicans find jobs in Mexico = less illegals jumping the border. Do what you can to attack the problem, not the symptom.
    looking for a good book? check out mine! as fast as it is gone

  17. #67
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    Guest worker visas = bad idea.
    We currently don't have such a system and absolutely no control over who is here. How does another layer of buracracy fix that? Arizona passes a law that mandates a tougher stance on EXISTING Federal laws and look at all the panty waists that are lining up to toss the race card around. What's more, the economy went sour, construction jobs dried up and, what do you know, illegal immigration rates ebbed. What does that tell you about the kinds of jobs they were doing? Don't worry about the poor farm laborers, nobody would dream of doing an immigration sweep in the San Juaquin Valley.

    Besides all of the hysteria about a bill clearly noone has read, what about State's Rights? Doesn't Arizona have the right to enact her own laws? Remember this bill only takes a tougher stance on existing federal laws. If your arguement is that it opens the door to potential police abuse, the problem you have is with authority, not the law. After all, there is specific wording in the law that prohibits using race as a criteria for determining if further action is to be taken.

    One other thing; have you not been following the news in Mexico? There is a huge, bloody, violent drug war going on. Arizona is our front line defense against this war. We should be offering them our full support, not crying about civil rights that have yet to be abused.

  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by QuikR12 View Post
    Having lived in AZ for a year working for a federal agency directly affected by immigration issues, I can tell you personally that Illegal immigration is a huge. fucking. problem. The year I was there, there were well over 30 deaths and many more severe injuries from border crossing related accidents or shootings around the Yuma crossing points alone. Looking at the problem first hand from an eyewitness account, you can't blame AZ for taking initiative when the agency charged with the responsibility to manage the problem (homeland security) has been somewhat ineffective. To be surprised that the State of AZ has done something that is ethically questionable and not politically correct is foolish; AZ is the contends with UT as the most radically conservative state. For example, they were the last to recognize MLK day as a holiday and still don't conform to daylight savings.

    Immigration is a huge drain on state resources and funds. There are literally hundreds of thousands of illegals freeloading of state funded schools, medical services, transportation, etc. To attempt to regulate this is not only warranted, but absolutely necessary. They might have just not found the most politically tactful stroke to do so.
    Yes, Illegal Immigration (II) is a huge problem. There are farm areas near the border where the US Citizens are practically prisoners in there own home because of all the armed Illegals smuggling other illegals into the country.

    II is illegal and there is no reason that state law should not be able to make it a crime. But, as SG's links show, police do not act in accordance to constitutional law. And it is easy to see that legal brown people will be unconstitutionally violated with this new law. The law could of easily been written to both make II a state crime AND make it explicit that unreasonable search and seizures would not take place, and if they did they would be guilty of civil and criminal statutes.

  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by PNWbrit View Post
    Identifying, rounding up and forcibly deporting illegals by the hundreds of thousands might be a bigger problem and worse for your states.

    But as an exercise in futility how exactly do you envision the government undertaking such a project?
    Other than the way AZ is proposing to do it? Fuck if I know.

    If the dept of HS can "better" secure the borders, then institute a similar, but more tactful approach to identifying, detaining, and deporting illegals, and implement OSECS suggestion of guest visas for legal immigrant workers. Truth is, I'm not sure there is one that doesn't racially profile a group largely responsible for problem.

    The economic implications of immigrant workers are not lost on me, but honestly i could give a fuck about political correctness when we find ourselves bleeding out the ass from a persistent and otherwise uncorrected problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by stupendous man View Post
    Isn't the answer to help Mexico? End the drug war, help Mexicans find jobs in Mexico = less illegals jumping the border. Do what you can to attack the problem, not the symptom.
    the magic genie lamp was used on Iraq. We just can't grant them resources like plentiful water, irrigable land, cheap and readily available energy sources, and financial capital... these are the requisites to jobs and a thriving economy, and Mexico is vastly underserved.

  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spats View Post
    -We want free health care, free food, and free services for everyone who can't otherwise afford them
    OK, how about requiring proof of citizenship--or at least a legal right to be in this country--from the people looking for these handouts then?

  21. #71
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    I am boycotting boycotts.

  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by OSECS View Post
    I can see it now. They post the citizenship checkpoints in the paper, in English, catch a bunch of illegals, and then some ACLU lawyer gets the case thrown out cause the folks they caught can't read English.
    What if I am too drunk the night before to read the paper to see the dui checkpoints, can I get the ACLU to throw out DUI checkpoints??

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spats View Post
    Let me get this straight:

    -We want free health care, free food, and free services for everyone who can't otherwise afford them
    -We don't want mandatory ID, endemic video surveillance, or other intrusions on privacy and free travel
    -We don't want to have tough immigration and visa laws, we don't want to require proof of legal status to work here or send money back to other countries, and we don't want to have tough border checkpoints

    Does anyone else see the problem here?

    We can't have all these things at the same time: you can't put up a big sign advertising "FREE STUFF" and not have people show up asking for it.

    So everyone in this thread needs to answer this question:
    Which of the above things are you willing to give up?
    Spats, having seen your posts and know that you are a pretty intelligent guy, therefore you realize that the above is not quite right. endemic video surveillance and privacy intrusions will not give you free health care, and neither will taxing illegal immigrants who make $5-10 an hour.

  24. #74
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    Maybe some candidate can use illegal immigration as a spring board toward a federal sales tax as a replacement or partial replacement for income taxes? That would help reduce the burden slightly as long as the immigrants purchased stuff with their money.

    It might also reduce some of the incentive to come to the US illegally. The wage they receive is higher than it looks at face value because they pay no taxes.
    "We had nice 3 days in your autonomous mountain realm last weekend." - Tom from Austria (the Rax ski guy)

  25. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by ski_trader View Post
    endemic video surveillance...
    Enteric video can be pretty shitty, too.
    Daniel Ortega eats here.

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