Running shoes and pronation

[RShea]

So I have started to do some running now. Last month my dog was put down and I miss the morning walks with her. I still head out on some walks and go to the gym for some workouts. My goal is to now attempt to do a sprint Triathlon at the end of the summer.

I hate running - but have to do it to complete the Tri. I am looking for new running shoes, as now I am running my short distances in cross trainers.

So I have been trying to read about pronation- over or under and the best shoes for me. Arch is medium to high, definitely not flat footed. My foot and leg/knee is such that I always wear out my outside the heals long before the inside. Every shoe I have owned is that way- especially my left foot. So sounds from what I have read that I am an under pronatator? Over-supinator possibly too- but I do not know enough about it hence this thread. I still have to take a few minutes and do the wet foot on the paper towel to see what I have for distance across the arch that many sites recommend- some even recommend both standing -weight bearing and sitting non-weight bearing.

So I have recently had New Balance cross trainers, a cheap pair of Fila running shoes recently, and now Reebok cross trainers.

I am looking at New Balance and possibly a pair of Asisc Gel shoes. What about any arch supports (other than what is in the shoes already?) or custom orthos for running? I have ski ortho that were done on the scanner and then CNC cut to my foot and when hiking/backpacking and cycling I use a pair green superfeet in those shoes.

[Charlie Don't Surf]

Go to a running store and have them help you out. Especially for new(er) runners they can be as big of help as a good boot fitter.

[XXX-er]

if you really want to run I would (and I did ) go to a REAL running store where a knowledgable staff can take a look at your stride and put you in THE right shoe ...imo its like trying to find the right ski boot

forget brand & price every shoe is good for some kind of foot & stride just like every ski boot is good for some skier

I got a shoe guy who put me on the tread mill and watched me run , cory spent most of an hour with me off & on ,he put me in 5 different shoes and watched my stride before he was happy with what he seen cuz I got flat feet,I have had had plantar fascitis & inflamed achilles and I needed a shoe with a lot of support on the inner heel.

If you find a shop who caters to the runner take your runners & your shoes so they can scope wear patterns on the soles ,take your orthotics which maybe they can use and be dressed to do a little running

It ain't cheap to get the best service ... I paid for a shoe at > 150$ but when I consider the costs and pain of dealing with a running related injury and IMO it was worth it to be injury free

[Platinum Pete]

Real running stores are very worth every additional penny you'd pay vs. online or some discounter. The wrong shoes can lead to or exacerbate injuries, be very uncomfortable, or just need to be replaced way faster than getting it right the first time. A good running store is the most likely place to find the help to get it right the first time.

[CaliBrit]

I myself do run in blue superfeet. You really may not need this as you sound like you really are a supinator.

I agree with getting a running shoe that is right. But I would say also it is a trial and error approach as well. Allot of shoes are very similar in terms of where they are pitched in the market. And the specialty stores will get you very close. But you are still going to have to work to find your favorite.

You should not be tied to brands of course, but I would say ones such as brooks and saucony, which are really very focused runner driven brands tend to have very good offerings.

[Dantheman]

My foot and leg/knee is such that I always wear out my outside the heals long before the inside.

Landing on your heel is bad, mmmkay? Don't do that.

Further, there is ZERO evidence that fancy running shoes with pronation correction, motion control, blah blah blah, etc. reduce injuries.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/mosl...ste-money.html

[CaliBrit]

Landing on your heel is bad, mmmkay? Don't do that.

Further, there is ZERO evidence that fancy running shoes with pronation correction, motion control, blah blah blah, etc. reduce injuries.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/mosl...ste-money.html

They may not reduce injuries, but my ankle is certainly sore past 7 miles unless I am in a supportive shoe.

[Hugh Conway]

Further, there is ZERO evidence that fancy running shoes with pronation correction, motion control, blah blah blah, etc. reduce injuries.

gee, it's a wonder why mankind created shoes in the firstplace. It must have been a cabal, not that they could walk further

[XtrPickels]

DTM-saw this the other day and thought of you

[GeezerSteve]

Right, go to a good running store that will put you on a treadmill. But beware because some running store employees are in the habit if recommending corrective shoes where they are not indicated.

There is a lively debate in the running community about motion control shoes, barefoot running and what constitutes a "natural running stride." No doubt that motion control shoes have resulted in some unnatural strides in some people. Check out Pose Method running, Chi Running and the book Born to Run.

I used MC shoes in the past, but switched my running style a few years ago so that I now run in neutral shoes. I'm a big boy with lots of running miles, so I must be doing something right. I watched the Pose DVD, but reading up on barefoot running techniques would have been sufficient. The key to the Pose or Chi stride is to rotate one's center of gravity forward to avoid a heel slap. Some people describe the COG-forward stride as "controlled falling." Pose and Chi junk up the discussion with other stuff, but if you get your COG forward, the rest should follow naturally.

The terms "heel strike," "mid-foot strike," and "forefoot strike" are often thrown around, but they are meaningless. As the pic of Meb posted by XtrPickel reveals, even a world class runner like Meb touches his heel to the ground at some point in the foot strike. But you can bet that the impact force on his heel is far less than that of a heel slapper using motion control shoes (i.e., shoes with a medial post to prevent pronation).

[Tuckerman]

DTM-saw this the other day and thought of you

Bad habits are hard to break. Also this pic could be toward the end of a race where crossing the finish line quickly is the goal and not reducing the chance of injury.

I have gone to a minimalist shoe first the New balance 840 and now I run in a New balance MT100. I think I have had less injuries with the minimalists shoes. But of course like ski boots you need to find what works best for you.

[Dantheman]

gee, it's a wonder why mankind created shoes in the firstplace. It must have been a cabal, not that they could walk further

How about actually reading the link, it may be tough to see the words through that smug cloud though.

DTM-saw this the other day and thought of you

Well color me flattered A music prof once told a class I was in this story:

Prof's teacher: Prof, stop puffing out your cheeks.
Prof: But Dizzy Gillespie puffed out his cheeks.
Prof's teacher: When you can play like Dizzy Gillespie you can puff out your cheeks all you want.

Pretty much sums up my feelings on that pic. If you can run as fast as Meb, your form could look like a down syndrome kid having a full body seizure and I won't say a word. Plus, that is a very minimal HS and looks to be taken near the end of the race where form breakdown is inevitable.

[GeezerSteve]

Biomechanics of Foot Strikes & Applications to Running Barefoot or in Minimal Footwear


Watch video of the Kenyan kid who has never worn shoes. Note that he initiates his contact with the ground with his midfoot, followed by his heel kissing the ground.

The picture of Meb in stop motion is very incomplete information, and certainly not evidence of a "bad habit."

[XtrPickels]

Pretty much sums up my feelings on that pic. If you can run as fast as Meb, your form could look like a down syndrome kid having a full body seizure and I won't say a word.

You mean like the ladies winner? Her upper body was rockin and rollin all over the place.

To the OP: I think what each person in this thread has said has value and is representative of the advice you'd get if you polled 200 more people.

My advice is this: If you want to just go out and run then go to a specialty runnng store in your area and have them check you out. Let us know where you live and we might be able to recommend a good one.

However, if you want to take the time and effort to relearn technique, there are potentially better ways Eg: Midfoot /Chi / Pose technique etc etc. Those will recommend a minimalist shoe to allow your body to absorb the shock instead of the footwear. Switching tecnhiques will take time and dedication but may perhaps make you a better runner in the end.

My above picture wasn't to convince you or anyone that heel striking is the best technique because Meb was caught doing it. It was just a fun jab at DTM because of his unwavering stance on heel-striking.

[XtrPickels]

Biomechanics of Foot Strikes & Applications to Running Barefoot or in Minimal Footwear


Watch video of the Kenyan kid who has never worn shoes. Note that he initiates his contact with the ground with his midfoot, followed by his heel kissing the ground.

The picture of Meb in stop motion is very incomplete information, and certainly not evidence of a "bad habit."

Food for thought:

1. The top two videos claim that forefoot striking will lessen impact force.
Watching the "Force" value on the video they provided, the "force" of both the forefoot and heelstrike is the approximately the same @ 2.5xBW or so.

Now its not directly comparable because 1 has shoes, the other doesn't, N=1 etc etc. But, it is interesting.

2. It would be even more interesting to look at force along an AP axis instead of just a vertical axis.

3. Frederick from the exeter research labs put out a paper in the mid 80's showing a decrease in submaxV02 (which equals an increase in economy) with softer cushioned soles vs less cushion. I haven't been able to track down the actual report.

citation: Frederick EC, Howley ET, Powers SK. Lower oxygen demands of running in soft soled shoes. Res. Quart Ex Sport 1983; 57:174-177

Noakes, Howley, Scott Powers, Benno Nigg are all big names in footwear research.

Oh how I miss university libraries with research journals at your finger tips.

[XXX-er]

My shoe guy put me in a saucony stabil grid which was the shoe with the most pronation control he had in stock

togetehr with custom orthotics what it did was make me a flat footed heel striker (with PF and strained achilles issues )into a forefoot striker

I asked my shoe guy about this and he claims you don't want to strike with your heel, you want to strike with your fore foot becasue while there are the muscles & tendons in the fore foot & ankle joint to cushion some of the landing there is NO give in a heel strike .

my orthotics guy and my shoe guy have an ongoing " disagreement " as to the whole issue,in a small town their philosophies run headlong into one another

My orthotic guy (sports med trainning up the ying yang,and athelete support at a world level for Canada )said you should use this orthotic I made you in a neutral shoe

my shoe guy (gifted runner) sez the orthotic guy is wrong you need his orthotic AND a bunch of contol ...in fact all the control I can sell you

SO FAR all I know IS a bunch of control has worked for me,the strained achilles and PF (which lasted more than a year) have NOT reocurred

ALSO , I used to get a pain outside & just below the kneecap on one side which has gone away ... possible alignment issue solved ?

my experiance for ya

[jon gaper]

just because you wear out the outside of your shoe does NOT mean you are a supinator....I am a severe pronator and also do that.

I have found that I like cushioning, not the hard wedge in pronator shoes....so I like a shoe that has lots,and add an insole....and SOLE makes some good one that hold up well

[GeezerSteve]

Note that a shoe with too much MC can result in IT band issues, which suck.

Yeah, the debate continues, even in XXXer's neck of the woods.

Interesting. My friend -- a PT who many deem the greatest male ultrarunner in US history and who, in my view, has profound understanding of running stride -- prompted my switch from MC shoes to neutral shoes and a COG-forward stride. But he also acknowledges that some people with whacked physiology are better off in MC shoes.

However, if you want to take the time and effort to relearn technique. . . . Switching tecnhiques will take time and dedication but may perhaps make you a better runner in the end.

Not much time nor dedication in my case. Two weeks of short runs on neutral shoes with my COG rotated forward, and it felt very natural. I've run c. 20 ultras since then with no injuries. (60 pre-switch ultras with several episodes of injuries.) I cannot imagine reverting back to heel slapping in MC shoes.

[XXX-er]

I don't think you want to land on the wedge in motion control shoe ... I find its just there to keep me OFF my heels

Yeah I find the soles are great ,also good in a ski boot and you can sand that grey foam off the bottom if you need to for proper fit

[Beyond]

Overpronator here for a different set of reasons that start at the knees. Wear a Rx orthotic, and used MC for years. But both doc and running shoes specialists warned me off MC, on grounds they create more stress than they alleviate. Since I know some anatomy, I did research, came to same conclusion. Feet need to flex and move around when loaded. So ended up in Asic Gels with forefoot and heel pads, not MC model with all the midfoot thickness, and have retooled my stride toward what it was back when I competed; forefoot emphasis, light heel.

IMO nothing exactly wrong with COG forward designs, most running shoes have that anyway, but better if your body has to make the adjustment, learns to use the correct small muscles. A COG forward design will actually take those same muscles off line, you end up using their antagonists to keep from getting too far forward.

That said, I think the barefoot stuff is a crock. Not so much because of the anatomy per se - yes, we evolved to run more on our forefeet; "heel strikers" are outside our envelope - but because of the differences between what we ran on 40,000 years ago and today. Not a lot of evidence that our distant ancestors - or the Mexican Indians inevitably brought up by enthusiasts - did their barefooting on concrete and asphalt. Or had BMI's of 25 to 30. Big difference between forces at that weight generated on grass or dirt or a treadmill, and on the local sidewalk...

[Hugh Conway]

How about actually reading the link, it may be tough to see the words through that smug cloud though

perhaps something from a more reputable source, i.e., not the Daily Mail, would penetrate through your smug cloud to those on the outside?

[GeezerSteve]

Beyond, when I speak of COG forward, I'm speaking of running style, not shoe design. Maybe we've got a communication snag, one way or t' other. If you are now running with a forefoot emphasis, light heel stride, then you are likely running with your COG forward of where you were before altering your stride.

[nickd13]

Adidas Adizero Tempo, super-light and bouncy, works for me and I ware the outside of the soles first on shoes.

[Beyond]

Beyond, when I speak of COG forward, I'm speaking of running style, not shoe design.

Sorry, thought you meant the shoe, given how much heel rise many have. We're in agreement.

[XXX-er]

Interesting. My friend -- a PT who many deem the greatest male ultrarunner in US history and who, in my view, has profound understanding of running stride -- prompted my switch from MC shoes to neutral shoes and a COG-forward stride. But he also acknowledges that some people with whacked physiology are better off in MC shoes.

.

before the saucony stabil grid I was put in a couple of pair of the nike air triax ,ALSO an MC shoe, by a different running store chain which seemed to work ok

and then I fucked my self up completely by buying on the cheap at a discount chain (the forzani group ) which were selling OLD shoes with foam that had lost all its cush and thats when I got the PF ... which is why I recommended to the OP to go to a running store & NOT skimp on shoes

my feet are flatter than a cow pie in the spring ,maybe just wacked enough for MC shoes eh? ...in any case MC seems to work for me