Salomon Quest Tech inserts failure thread

[coreyb]

Is it just me or does Salomon not even have the quest boot on their website? I can't find them on there. Seems to lend some credibility to the comments on the french forum that this years boots are just a "test" or "beta" model, if it is the case that they don't even have them on the website.

googled "salomon quest"
http://www.salomon.com/others/minisi...est/index.aspx

holy shit, gone from backcountry.com now as well.

i bought the last pair... they were removed seconds later...

[XXX-er]

the most you can expect from any corporation at this point is that they will say nothing except issue a product recall to not use the tech toe pieces which we already know ...their lawyer would have told them the less they say right now the better

Shit that doesnt work gets manufactured all the time ,that is not a crime BUT IF a user was injured on a product and it can be proven that salomon WAS AWARE (key words) of a product defect which was a safety issue and they showed negligence in dealing with that situation I think they could have a legal problem in any country

in any case it would all be hush hush settled behind closed doors between the lawyers ... don't hold yer breath waiting for much of a response

[GeezerSteve]

In most states, strict liability applies if the product is deemed to be unreasonably dangerous, so proof of knowledge or negligence is not required to sustain a product liability action. Other states, including WA, use an implied warranty theory. I'm simplifying things here. A full survey of 50 state PL laws would take many pages.

Also, in most states, evidence of a recall or other subsequent remedial action is not admissible on the issue of liability.

[stuckathuntermtn]

That is terrible. Even worse than the Marker Motion injuries I've seen. I feel like throwing my Guns off a tall building.

I'm sorry, I hope you heal up well.

[buckethead]

They're probably on the phone to Toyota right now to see how not to cover up safety issues.

fixed it...though not sure if toyota's inaction actually hurt them too much

[TeleThor]

Dalton, I just heard about your accident. Holy shit dude. Sounds like last year's trek out of the wilderness with a broken leg was a cakewalk compared to the current situation. Keep your head up man! I'll put money on you being back on skis again! Not many guys out there tougher than you.

[XXX-er]

In most states, strict liability applies if the product is deemed to be unreasonably dangerous, so proof of knowledge or negligence is not required to sustain a product liability action. Other states, including WA, use an implied warranty theory. I'm simplifying things here. A full survey of 50 state PL laws would take many pages.

Also, in most states, evidence of a recall or other subsequent remedial action is not admissible on the issue of liability.

I am not a lawyer I just play some crazy old fuck on the internet BUT obviously you are a lawyer ...whats your non-binding legal opinion in 25words or less?

[shirk]

I am likely to get lynched for this, but in order to make this a full discussion I am going to bring it up.

Why all the talk on the boot and none about the binding?

A partially locked (one click from the other thread) toe should be part of debate. The Dynafit toe design does not have an adjustable toe release function. It's not DIN certified to any ISO release standards. What is the amount of needed to release the toe? How much force when in "one click"? How much when locked out?

Who is willing to sacrifice some boots for testing? Three measurements, one with normal ski mode, one with "one click", and a third with full tour mode. Take the measurements with no heel engagement.

Hope your recovery goes well Thin Cover and you are able to get back at the things you and we all love.

For full disclosure I have no affiliation with Salomon or Dynafit, but I do work for the Canadian distributor for Diamir. It's been my opinion that there is a lot of miss-communication about the release functionality of Dynafit bindings.

[thin cover]

Already discussion on wildsnow about that and I think in this thread. But just to clear things up the skis left my feet first which caused the fall and this was done during a very slow turn on a moderate pitch. I guess If you could see the pic you would see that this point really makes no difference, as I have been told by many industry experts.


Here is is the post from wildsnow which the solly rep actually suggested locking them out to combat the weak insert issue! it just gets worse

On a French ski forum, a Salomon rep has been publicly stating that the Quest shoes indeed have problems with its Dynafit fittings, that this was something known but that the products won’t get recalled b/c there was not so many people using the shoes with tech bindings. He also stated that you would be able to “fix” the problem by locking the bindings. Eventually he mentioned that the shoes sold this year were a pre-serie and you cannot expect a perfect product from a pre serie.
This is one reason I would never buy any Salomon product.

thanks for keeping the discussion going though

[XXX-er]

Why all the talk on the boot and none about the binding?

.

[ame="http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/showthread.php?t=152044"]WTF is up with dynafit toe pieces? - Teton Gravity Research Forums[/ame]


5 pages of talk on the dynafit just down the page

In this instance it was not a binding problem it was the tech fittings in the toe block pulling out of the plastic or however they were anchored in the block

[shirk]

WTF is up with dynafit toe pieces? - Teton Gravity Research Forums


5 pages of talk on the dynafit just down the page

In this instance it was not a binding problem it was the tech fittings in the toe block pulling out of the plastic or however they were anchored in the block

Just went back and reviewed the thread, starts out about bindings ripping out of skis, then about tech fitting and boot interface, but no discussion about the bindings release mechanics or forces required to get them to release in different manners.

On the topic of bindings pulling out of skis, I see only two types of bindings pull out of skis on a regular consistent basis, Dynafit and Tele. What do both of these have in common? Neither have an adjustable release mechanism in the toe.

Lets see some hard numbers on release values. What should be failing first? Your knee, the bindings, the tech fittings, or the mount?

[tone capone]

Thin Cover, so sorry about your injury. Sounds terrible, but It sounds like you are made of tough stuff and will be going strong again eventually. Just wanted to chime in that I'm rooting for you. I will be thinking of you and hoping that you prove your doctors wrong and that you are compensated as fully as you deserve for this. And if fishing is the best you can do for a while, you are welcome to come out to a Montana vacation for that any time you like. You got a place to stay here brotha.

[GeezerSteve]

I am not a lawyer I just play some crazy old fuck on the internet BUT obviously you are a lawyer ...whats your non-binding legal opinion in 25words or less?

I have insufficient information to render an informed opinion at this time, and, even if I did, it would take more than 25 words. I do hope to learn more about the boot design and the details of the failure.

[Skidog]

Lets see some hard numbers on release values. What should be failing first? Your knee, the bindings, the tech fittings, or the mount?

dude how bout you go to the link to Wildsnow, where Lou basically says that even in EXTREME SKI SITUATIONS the boot should not fail, especially not first...and in "locked" mode he says you'll likely leave body parts along with it.
he said the toe of the dyna should give out first even when locked down...

"hard numbers" there are no "hard numbers" the dynafit doesnt conform to ISO or DIN standards, its just how it is...however we all know they've been in use for a long time and done some of the most technical descents without issue.

TC....keep strong man.

[dk_alaskan]

I have had the dynafit toe in lock mode give out before injury occurred. When this happened, I was pretty shocked but relieved that my boot released from the toe before the knee, tib/fib etc gave.

TC, there will always be skiing in your future, you may alter your norm day a bit, but your love will always be there for you.

[LightRanger]

dude how bout you go to the link to Wildsnow, where Lou basically says that even in EXTREME SKI SITUATIONS the boot should not fail, especially not first...and in "locked" mode he says you'll likely leave body parts along with it.
he said the toe of the dyna should give out first even when locked down...

"hard numbers" there are no "hard numbers" the dynafit doesnt conform to ISO or DIN standards, its just how it is...however we all know they've been in use for a long time and done some of the most technical descents without issue.

TC....keep strong man.

That's great, and Lou's probably got more anecdotal experience than anybody, but shirk was asking for numbers. That's not such an outlandish request, and it's probably not that hard to test either (should be able to mount up some toe pieces, lock them out to various degrees, and torque test the boots). Lou already posted results of unlocked toes that G3 gave him. We know Dynafits are rad, but there's nothing wrong with wanting to know more about them when people are skiing with the toes at settings not necessarily recommended by the manufacturer.

The issue I could see is that if you were to test various boots to toe insert failure, you'd probably see VERY different results--as TC's experience so unfortunately suggests. I would *think* that you'd rip the binding out of the topsheet before the vast majority of boot inserts failed (with the immediate exception of the boot at issue here), but it would be cool to know.

[Patches]

On the topic of bindings pulling out of skis, I see only two types of bindings pull out of skis on a regular consistent basis, Dynafit and Tele. What do both of these have in common? Neither have an adjustable release mechanism in the toe.

Move this to a different thread. This is not about Dynafits vs Diamir, and its not about bindings pulling out. Its about boots failing.

[allenataylor]

Lets see some hard numbers on release values. What should be failing first? Your knee, the bindings, the tech fittings, or the mount?

This is from an email I sent around to friends this fall:

I messed around with the release tester at Cochran's. Its nothing too fancy, clamp the skis to a table, put an insert in the boot and click it into the binding. Then you use a torque wrench attached to the insert to release the binding and read the max torque. I only measured lateral toe release. The boot used was a Scarpa Skookum (vibram sole, 313mm BSL)

All measurements in Nm (Newton Meters)

Duke
Din/Torque
9/85
10/95
11/105
12/105 (repeated)
13/115

Dynafit Ft10 (10 din max, lateral heel din set on 9)
toe lever position/release torque
down, ski mode/90
up, no clicks/120

Dynafit FT12 (12 din max, lateral heel set on 9)
down, ski mode/90
up, no clicks/ 90,95
up, 1 click/150+ NO RELEASE

I guess all this really proves is that dynafit toes are variable in their release characteristics when the lever is up. This is not precise testing by any means either, I was applying force by hand and there is no way to tell if I applied the force the same way each time. I couldn't fit my praxis in the vice so I had to stand on them to do it and had a very different body position manipulating the torque wrench.

The numbers are scary, I hurt my knee last winter (no pop but stretched out the ligament enough the joint was loose and still feels lose sometimes) on my dukes with a toe din of 11 in a slow fall, according to this test an 11 din duke has much less retention than a dynafit with the lever up in some cases, 1 click in others.

end email

Dynafits are supposed to have a standardized release when the toes are in ski mode (I did not test this). The toe tension is really only one part of the equation. That stays constant and lateral release is more greatly affected by the lateral heel din. In my experience the twisting of the heel is what gets the toe pins to let go.

As has been said before the boot inserts should be the last thing to fail. I think the narrow hole pattern of the dynafit toe has contributed to you seeing a lot of them get ripped out of skis. Then again I just ripped a toe dynaduke (much wider hole pattern than dynafit) off a pair of bluehouses the other day with dynafits on them. IMO that was because bluehouses are very poorly made (just like so many other skis).

If I am skiing in no fall terrain with the toes locked I want the weak link in the system to be my knee.

I skied dynafits hard in ski mode this winter in Gulmarg and had very good luck with them.

Sorry this doesn't help TC much. I just worry a lot because I can see the same thing happening to me. Equipment failure is really scary because you could be doing everything else right and still have that happen. Hopefully this will get all manufacturers test all of their inserts more rigorously and will raise awareness with folks who are new to dynafit that not all inserts are created equal.

Glad you are staying positive TC.

[shirk]

This is from an email I sent around to friends this fall:

I messed around with the release tester at Cochran's. Its nothing too fancy, clamp the skis to a table, put an insert in the boot and click it into the binding. Then you use a torque wrench attached to the insert to release the binding and read the max torque. I only measured lateral toe release. The boot used was a Scarpa Skookum (vibram sole, 313mm BSL)

All measurements in Nm (Newton Meters)

Duke
Din/Torque
9/85
10/95
11/105
12/105 (repeated)
13/115

Dynafit Ft10 (10 din max, lateral heel din set on 9)
toe lever position/release torque
down, ski mode/90
up, no clicks/120

Dynafit FT12 (12 din max, lateral heel set on 9)
down, ski mode/90
up, no clicks/ 90,95
up, 1 click/150+ NO RELEASE

I guess all this really proves is that dynafit toes are variable in their release characteristics when the lever is up. This is not precise testing by any means either, I was applying force by hand and there is no way to tell if I applied the force the same way each time. I couldn't fit my praxis in the vice so I had to stand on them to do it and had a very different body position manipulating the torque wrench.

The numbers are scary, I hurt my knee last winter (no pop but stretched out the ligament enough the joint was loose and still feels lose sometimes) on my dukes with a toe din of 11 in a slow fall, according to this test an 11 din duke has much less retention than a dynafit with the lever up in some cases, 1 click in others.

end email

Dynafits are supposed to have a standardized release when the toes are in ski mode (I did not test this). The toe tension is really only one part of the equation. That stays constant and lateral release is more greatly affected by the lateral heel din. In my experience the twisting of the heel is what gets the toe pins to let go.

As has been said before the boot inserts should be the last thing to fail. I think the narrow hole pattern of the dynafit toe has contributed to you seeing a lot of them get ripped out of skis. Then again I just ripped a toe dynaduke (much wider hole pattern than dynafit) off a pair of bluehouses the other day with dynafits on them. IMO that was because bluehouses are very poorly made (just like so many other skis).

If I am skiing in no fall terrain with the toes locked I want the weak link in the system to be my knee.

I skied dynafits hard in ski mode this winter in Gulmarg and had very good luck with them.

Sorry this doesn't help TC much. I just worry a lot because I can see the same thing happening to me. Equipment failure is really scary because you could be doing everything else right and still have that happen. Hopefully this will get all manufacturers test all of their inserts more rigorously and will raise awareness with folks who are new to dynafit that not all inserts are created equal.

Glad you are staying positive TC.

Thank you for sharing your numbers.

[XXX-er]

Just went back and reviewed the thread, starts out about bindings ripping out of skis, then about tech fitting and boot interface, but no discussion about the bindings release mechanics or forces required to get them to release in different manners.

On the topic of bindings pulling out of skis, I see only two types of bindings pull out of skis on a regular consistent basis, Dynafit and Tele. What do both of these have in common? Neither have an adjustable release mechanism in the toe.

Lets see some hard numbers on release values. What should be failing first? Your knee, the bindings, the tech fittings, or the mount?

That thread was an ongoing one I believe from before TC had his incident ,but you asked why no talk about the tech binding ... there's some talk

In any case it was the new salomon quest AT ski boot that failed on TC ,not the ski and NOT the binding ...which is why no talk about the binding

[TeleThor]

^^^What he said. It's the boots people.

Dynafits are surprisingly bomber. So far I've been extremely impressed with mine. I'm 200 lbs sans gear and do not ski with the tour lever locked. No premature releases to speak of yet.

[shirk]

All measurements in Nm (Newton Meters)

Dynafit FT12 (12 din max, lateral heel set on 9)
up, 1 click/150+ NO RELEASE

I guess all this really proves is that dynafit toes are variable in their release characteristics when the lever is up.

That thread was an ongoing one I believe from before TC had his incident ,but you asked why no talk about the tech binding ... there's some talk

In any case it was the new salomon quest AT ski boot that failed on TC ,not the ski and NOT the binding ...which is why no talk about the binding

I've gone and re-quoted what I feel is a really important bit of info from allenataylor's post. I don't see much of the debate looking into this. Yes the boot failed and that is very concerning, but you need to look into all parts of the system. What is the cause and effect here? Did the boot fail because of too much force or because of poor design/manufacturing? Just how much force is needed to cause a release when the toe is not in the standard ski mode?

[thin cover]

Interesting data. But that is more about bindings which actually performed great. In fact I am still reccomending them to people. The tech inserts are what failed.

[Patches]

I agree with you Shirk. But you should click on "Tech Talk" above, then click on "New Thread" and start one, in which I would like to participate. This thread is about defective boots.

[Beyond]

What is the cause and effect here? Did the boot fail because of too much force or because of poor design/manufacturing? Just how much force is needed to cause a release when the toe is not in the standard ski mode?

For better or worse, this is what Salomon will claim. Boots and bindings are a linked system, difficult to analyze in isolation.

But from my reading of TC's statements, which must be given priority, the boot failed during a slow controlled turn, PRIOR to the fall. The boot failure is stated to have CAUSED the fall. The only other conceivable interpretation is that somehow he mistakingly put undue force on the boot without putting equivalent force on the binding. That's difficult to model physically, and nothing TC or his companions or witnesses said happened supports it.

So I cannot see any way that you'd want a company to design a binding that released in the middle of a normal turn in the steeps, where your life was on the line. Finally, consider that Dynafits have a strong track record around the world, while the boot apparently isn't past beta. In this case, think you're right in theory, wrong on the face of the data.

And for the record, I ski on Dukes, just bought Quest 12's, so no interest one way or the other in talking up Dynafits, and my life would be a hell of a lot easier if Quests were NOT responsible. But looks like they were...