Salomon Quest Tech inserts failure thread

[XXX-er]

[QUOTE=LightRanger;2840474]

It appears to me that the tech fitting and the screw reinforcement in BD soles is the same piece of metal.


In the three photos below you can see how closely the metal from the tech fitting and the screw reinforcement (must) overlap. If they're that close, I have to think that BD made it out of one piece of metal. Intuitively that seems much stronger than having separate pieces, although I am definitely not an engineer.



I would agree with you ,still I wonder if the BD insert is of the specs and quality of the dynafit insert

[LightRanger]

I would agree with you ,still I wonder if the BD insert is of the specs and quality of the dynafit insert

Of that, I have no idea. And due to injury and only being on the boots for four days now, I haven't tested them that much with Dynafits myself (one day).

That said, there are a lot of Factors and Methods out there now. I'd imagine if there were substantial quality issues with the fittings, we would have heard about it (either on here or maybe Wildsnow).

[DoWork]

Without really having any hard numbers on sales, I have a hard time imagining how many people are actually using this boot with the tech inserts vs standard DIN soles. Add to that the total number of people using dynafit bindings to huck 40 fters, and we may be in the range of countable with fingers. Regardless, it's still inexcusable to allow a proven shoddy product to continue to be sold.

Yeah, pretty much what I was getting at. It might not be alot of people, but it doesn't have to be. Besides, they might just have a hard time getting to that 40 footer if the boots couldn't even handle the turns to get there.

[ex-powderbroker]

Hey guys, I've wanted to avoid commenting but to my untrained eye with no testing I believed that the inserts failed because they were not encased in plastic. Whether or not there was metal going through, there was simply too much air or soft rubber to keep a skier locked in.

With the BD's, maybe they're able to use minimal plastic as well because the screws go through the toe blocks into the boot making a way more secure connection.

Salomon's lack of communication is disturbing, and it seems like they did know about these issues before production. If that gets proved in court it would make it impossible for me to purchase a Salomon product because I full on agree with DoWork. A company that doesn't think about the longterm health of its customers just doesn't deserve my business, there are enough manufacturers out there that i'd just pick the less evil one.

Finally, I wanted to thank everyone for taking the time to photograph, hack at, and test their equipment. Everyone is really throwing down with their skills (legal, engineering, what have you) to contribute some great discussion to throw some light on a truly horrible occurrence, and I really appreciate it. TGR is just a mindblowingly generous, thoughtful, and amazing community....

[XXX-er]

[QUOTE=ml242;2840542]

Salomon's lack of communication is disturbing, and it seems like they did know about these issues before production. If that gets proved in court it would make it impossible for me to purchase a Salomon product because I full on agree with DoWork.

/QUOTE]

not really ,its very early on in this whole affair and salomon is a huge company with people who sit at desks sipping lattes and pecking at a computer just like any other BIG company and most of them would be entirely unaware of this situation

and besides ,their lawyer will have told them to say NOTHING ... outside of what will be a prepared statement

[LeeLau]

If anyone wants Dynafit fittings to destructively test I have some Megarides that were going to get turned into plant pots I can donate. Would prefer not to ship

[ex-powderbroker]

not really ,its very early on in this whole affair and salomon is a huge company with people who sit at desks sipping lattes and pecking at a computer just like any other BIG company and most of them would be entirely unaware of this situation

and besides ,their lawyer will have told them to say NOTHING ... outside of what will be a prepared statement

logically i hear what you're saying but i want to hear the sorry voice of a dedicated skier at Salomon, not the soulless lawyer corporate speak we're destined for.

[XXX-er]

Just read the threads at Wildsnow; looks like this has been going on for a while, and that Salomon has been well aware of it, doing a Toyota on the reports. Hope our French/French speaking members are searching sources over there to establish a timeline, cuz it sounds like it started way before any Quests were released in the U.S.

Question for folks who know about boot building: Would the fix require a new boot mold, a new sole (suggested at Wildsnow) or just a new toe insert?

I just went back to wild snow & read the french to english translation by the french dude "anonyomous" 3 times

The french salomon rep talks about probs with the toe block ,the need to redesign the toe block for next year ,that this is a pre-released version of product ,the need to ski the boot with dynafits locked down in touring mode ... from what I read lots of people seem to ski dynafits in touring mode

The french Salomon rep DOES NOT say anything about KNOWING of an instance where the tech fittings had ripped out of a toe block ?

Did I miss something or read the wrong post,I was under the impression salomon was aware of a previous instance of a tech fitting pulling out of a toe block ?

has there been a previous instance of a fitting pulling out of a toe block??

[Beyond]

I think the calls to boycott or otherwise avoid Salomon products until this is resolved is not a complaint of ALL Salomon products but as a statement about Salomon's lack of addressing this issue thus far, i.e. poor customer service, which could potentially lead to other customer service issues in the future. Once this issue is resolved and Salomon establishes that they are supportive of their customer base and properly back up their products, then I imagine those calling to avoid Salomon products would continue to purchase and endorse them.

IMO Your phrase "customer service" vanillas this into the same bag of problems as responding to a minor delam, or a walk mode lever that cracks. It makes this into a PR issue.

I reject that premise. This is a mechanism that is directly implicated in the safety of the user. And the problem looks very much like a fundamental design flaw, not a tweak. It is also one that has been known by Salomon for a while, according to the translated press conferences. So as another poster noted, this also appears to a problem of corporate culture. Do you not see a parallel to Toyota here? They also have fine hardworking workers. They also have a diverse line of nice products. And they also put people's lives on the line because they became careless with reliability testing.

Salomon released boots for sale, and made no attempt at owner notification. Then at least Salomon was not calling them "beta's" that might require further development. They were calling them 2010 Quests. Period. In fact, I recall posts about how they had been used in Europe for two years, so unlike Factors, all the bugs were worked out. (In retrospect, I wonder if that was viral marketing at work.)

The assumption for this Spring's release was, like early releases of skis and so on, that they were trying to build up consumer feedback in a new market. It worked; I bought a pair myself. I was psyched, because Salomons fit my feet better than any other boot.

Will I ever buy Salomon again? I don't know. Haven't even decided what I'm going to do with my Quests. Hell, I don't know what I'll feel like if/when I slap on my Falcons next fall.

Mainly I'm watching Salomon's response to see if they take a deep breath and do the right thing. That begins, in my mind, with TC and his family, and with any other persons who have been injured using their product. Regardless of what the company lawyers say they can get away with. Then it extends to tracking down all the other purchasers with a warning recall/apology/fix. Then it extends to getting the boot right, not just doing a cosmetic tweak. If they do all that, then maybe they get a second chance from me.

So far, I am not encouraged. Salomon seems to be going the other direction, dismissing the significance of the problem, blaming the users, making cute little French jokes about it. Presumedly, this fall the blocks will be different, and hey, no harm done (in appropriate idiom).

If they continue with that strategy, then no, I will never buy any Salomon product again. Whether they have a great price on it or no. And since I've worn Salomon boots exclusively for the past decade, talk them up in forums, that's a big decision to me. But some here place values over price point or convenience:

I also own an elderly Toyota, best truck I've ever had, needed a newer one for mission critical apps, bought a Honda. If Toyota gets its culture straight, which it seems to be doing, I may buy Toyota again in the future. Still think they make fine cars. See the point?

[Beyond]

I just went back to wild snow & read the french to english translation by the french dude "anonyomous" 3 times

The french salomon rep talks about probs with the toe block ,the need to redesign the toe block for next year ,that this is a pre-released version of product ,the need to ski the boot with dynafits locked down in touring mode ... from what I read lots of people seem to ski dynafits in touring mode

The french Salomon rep DOES NOT say anything about KNOWING of an instance where the tech fittings had ripped out of a toe block ?

Did I miss something or read the wrong post,I was under the impression salomon was aware of a previous instance of a tech fitting pulling out of a toe block ?

has there been a previous instance of a fitting pulling out of a toe block

XXX, I don't know how Salomon knew there was a problem, so doubt you missed anything since we're reading the same translations. I infer that Salomon's admission of problems that will require a redesign means that they had some tangible evidence of other pullouts. Otherwise, hard to understand how they knew they had a problem in the first place. I could be wrong.

But my logic runs more like this: If Salomon states that they had a problem requiring a redesign, regardless of whether they knew it from pull outs or through simple inspection, then they must have realized it could affect actual skiing safety. Yet they released the products for sale. It is possible that Salomon did not think the problem could lead to injury, if the vetting was being made by suits who didn't ski. The suggestion to ski locked down suggests they were aware of safety issues, still using Euro models of how people ski, respond to risk.

As far as other pullouts, yes there was at least one other reported and I seem to recall two mentioned. (But this stuff gets retold and distorted.) In the long thread over in Skiing forum, reference to another incident, and TC mentions one here a while back, could be a different version of the same. Neither apparently led to injury. Do not know if Salomon knew of these. If I follow your line of thought, it would be useful to compile a reliable list of pullouts, get rid of the forth hand info. And obviously a timeline.

[ex-powderbroker]

there was an example cited earlier of an Alaska guide ripping out his toe pieces.

[Core Shot]

The bolded statement piqued my curiosity, so I pulled the soles on my Factors and took some photos.

It appears to me that the tech fitting and the screw reinforcement in BD soles is the same piece of metal.

good photos of a better design than the sally version

Its a crazy thought that the downward force on the outside edge could be enough to bend a tech fitting, though, even without those extra screw holes i the plate.

think about it. if you step down on the inside edge, what bent on TC's boot is the outside edge tech fitting. that means it is only the leverage force created by a 100mm waist ski lever (not your body weight, which is pushing down)
- the force on the outer tech fitting is the force that wants to make the ski go flat and not stay on edge.
thats not much force at all considering this is nothing like landing a jump or even pushing g forces into a high speed turn.


My armchair guess is that the metal in the quest is shite - not hardened and not beefy enough. (in addition to not being encased in plastic)

[ticketchecker]

As a card carrying member of the knee fuck society I wish you well dood, you won't know what you're capable of until you get there. In the meantime if you want to get salty, come up to Maine for some tasty Striper fishing.
))
((
Now, I don't know but I've been told
If the horse don't pull, you got to carry the load
I don't know whose back's that strong
Maybe find out before too long

One way or another

[thin cover]

This darkness got to give ^^^^ Going Fishing is high on the priority list, Thank you


There was no play that I noticed in the insert, and they were in fact pretty easy to install, everything lined up fine. Although had I known then what I know now, of what I really should have been looking for I would have said no way am I skiing this thing.

Now I have a real tech insert, in my leg, this thing looks like an erector set and scare the shit out of me.

[Arty50]

TC, so sorry to hear about your injury. Here's hoping you have a miraculous recovery. And if not...just remember Chris Waddell and the many other courageous people who have taught us that nothing is impossible.

[Arno]

TC - never met you but makes me very sad to see someone who is so obviously a bringer of stoke struck with something like this. here's hoping your recovery confounds the medical community

on the tech side of things, have to say that the problem discussed on the French board does not sound like the issue TC had here. that said, it does sound like the toepiece with the tech insert was pretty clearly not fit for purpose and Salomon's attitude to it doesn't seem great. The other thing is that it probably wouldn't even require a recall of the boot - presumably they could just have recalled the toepieces. can't see that it would have killed them financially or reputationally to do that

[Marius]

dude, all vibes with you.

as it was mentioned above, Get a second (and third and fourth)opinion, from a surgeon who specializes in athletes, not just civilians.

Seriously, been there... doctors are only humans and they cant know everything. i do not know your hospital, but go to on that is specialized to athletes and knee injuries (there is a strong correlation in that point ).

i had a more or less similar accident, thats why your accident is getting close to me. i hope i can help you with this short writeup:

i skied half a day in light and good pow. nothing special, only that i had 3-4 ejections in that marker race-rental bindings that i should use on that day. there was a reason i never used them before - the vertical ejections works not with a feather -> most of the people know that on this board. me, too...

i skied straight beside a flat, really flat pist, some hard crush came from underneath, both bindings ejected in the front and i smashed head forward in the hard crust. like when you jump in a swimmingppool (header). just without water.

1. doctor (little hospital): broken 2. cervical vertebra (and severall other with partial fractions and hair cracks...). no more skiing.
2. doctor (chief of first doc): yes, broken, but in 2weeks i can go swimming again and in 4 weeks skiing
i couldnt believe i have a broken cervical and am allowed to go swimming within 2 weeks (if something happens at this place - game over!)

so: 3. doc (second bigger hospital): all broken, 3 month with ruff
4.+5.doc confirmed this. ok....

3month later: doc 3/4/5 saw the several bones healing, but not the 2. cervical vertebra. so they said i have to wear the ruff for 3-9 month more!!! couldnt believe this... went to another hospital, even more specialized.

doc nr 6 (third hospital, specialized): yes, was broken, but he is not sure, why this shit doesnt heal. consulted doc nr.7. had 2 more weeks with some strange analysis and doc 6+7 were sure: 2.cv was not broken! its from my birth on and a epiphysis cartilage!. so i can begin with rehab! i did, and i dont feel any damage until today.


focus on rehab and concentrate your energy on your status, and not Salomon. the lawyers will do that when it's time.

wish you all the best!

[GeezerSteve]

Yikes, TC

[byates1]

tc, i have been keeping up, sorry to hear about this. i am fucking pissed when i look at that boot toe.


i have thought that for 50 bucks, we should order one, everyone go in on it, and grind it apart. it's obvious as fuck that there is no plastic below it.

noone should be skiing these fittings. it's spring time, it shudders me to think of ppl skiing these in the west, or east, on high consequence lines

get the word out to your friends

heal up man, good luck

[skifishbum]

vibes TC
remain positive, you're a stud and it'll all work out
never cared for salomon products will never purchase or use one now
I hope you get a good lawyer and salomon takes it hard in the ass on this
When your healed up and mobile be happy to row your ass down any river in the west.

[Beyond]

Just a thought, need some advice: Think most here would agree this needs to get on more people's radar. To save other folks from what TC's going through, and to get Salomon's official attention. (Yeah, I'm sure they've got an intern following this here, but that's a lot different from company spokespeople having to respond to media.)

Obviously, many TGR members know about it by now. Took the liberty of posting info over on Epic, where I'm better known. But not a lot of interest in AT over there except from crossover members. Some views but not much feedback. And outside of web forums, face it, most Americans don't care about skiing. Especially in late April.

But major media are always after human interest features. Long ago and far away, I was a newspaper reporter. Still have some skiing buds in the industry. This seems ready made, especially with public interest in Toyota. My contacts are for west coast media, though. Someone here must know local NE television people. Local stations would eat up the angle of young couple moving into the area, lives messed up by possibly defective product from French company, Salomon's responses to French journalists etc.

Worth pursuing, or inappropriate given TC's situation, or wait to see what the lawyers say?

[bobsdesk]

http://www.wildsnow.com/2888/salomon...tings-failure/

Terrible situation to be in. Best of luck with your FULL recovery.

[C.O. Jones]

^^^ everyone needs to read that. Holy fuck, that's ridiculous that salomon put out a product like this. Serious negligence.

[skinnyskier]

tc, i have been keeping up, sorry to hear about this. i am fucking pissed when i look at that boot toe.

i have thought that for 50 bucks, we should order one, everyone go in on it, and grind it apart. it's obvious as fuck that there is no plastic below it.

heal up man, good luck

If some Maggot enginerd has the test apparatus to pull apart a Quest tech insert sole block, I'll be glad to chip in.

[byates1]

^^already done, read lou's post

motherfucker. fuck you solomon, fuck. you.

get on those fuck's TC, that is just wrong.