As ski areas or B/C-S/C users, What is our duty?

[bigdude2468]

Have you ever seen the signs at the top of 9990 at The Canyons? Four seperate large signs including a swinging gate, an actual gate you have to open that has a skull and crossbones on it with the following "YOU CAN DIE". The other signs give very explicit notice about the dangers and the fact that avalanches might result in loss of life. People have gone through that gate and died. There is only so much you can do when people want to act irresponsible. At some point you just have to let them do what they are going to do.

[Bunion 2020]

25 years as a ski patroller have taught me one thing.

People don't really read signs.

They may see them, they may actually mouth the words and repeat them aloud, but they don't believe the words apply to them.

I am looking for ways to get people who will go out gates with no gear, or some gear to re-think what they are doing and at the very least, have sufficient gear to spend a night out and not freeze to death.

I can't force people to take an awareness course, let alone a L1 course. But I do want them to know enough to spend a night out if they have to and not die.

Pretty simple concept.

Some water, a couple of extra layers, a Bic lighter and maybe some firestarter.

[chunkylover]

Ya, your probably right.

[Eleventy]

In regards to Big Sky/Moonlight specifically, I think that MLB does a much better job of informing prospective side-country travelers about conditions in and around Lost Lake than does Big Sky about conditions in Dakota/Wyoming. I think that this is generally responsible and sets a good precedent for the mountain as a whole. I have never heard a Moonlight patroller cite liability as a reason to not provide skiers information as to reported conditions in the side-country, whereas I cannot say the same about your neighbor.

That being said, I have never understood the point of signing my name at the top shack of either resort. No one ensures that what I sign is my actual name. There isn't any disclaimer I have ever noticed citing consequences for traveling under cornices, under ropes, or past signs at either resort. Why not add these checks? Why not move the top BC gate inside your N. Summit access ropes (if it isn't already, I'm a little hazy) and make skiers leaving there sign the same waiver and go through the same checks? GNFAC reports under plastic on the Tram steps, right where nearly everyone has to wait? Why not? The fucking Conoco posts that shit.

Information is power, and while you'll always have people skating off into the wilderness in the middle of a snowstorm, providing relevant information is never the wrong idea.

This is pretty specific. I'll shut up now.

[Bunion 2020]

Eleventy, all good suggestions. Too early in the a.m. to formulate an answer. I will get back to you.

[The Dad]

Coming to this thread (and the RMR thing) late. Ironically enough, because I was doing my Avy I.

So the other day, I get done hiking up to East Vail, and there's a group of 4 people, none of them with gear clicking in. 3 others behind them coming up the hike without gear either.....this was just a few days after a certain someone (I won't mention here) got rocked in a slide in the same spot his friend died exactly a year before.....but I digress. Vail patrol has even now put up a board stating the avi conditions, which on this day were considerable (probable)

There are two really bad layers, the one the recent snow is sitting on, and the shit layer of garbage contacting the ground.
I've heard story after story this year of people in slides up there. Most seem to go unmentioned here.

Anyway, the whole "darwin" argument is fine, as long as it doesn't effect others not in their group. Sure, these gapes can go out and get themselves killed, and as long as it's not through ignorance rather than recklessness, then that doesn't bother me as much.

What does bother me is the fact that not if but when they have a multiple fatality burial back there and have to ziplock 3 or more bodies, we're in danger of losing our access all together. That sucks.

Quoted for truth. Well said, Blurred.

Hopefully it's okay for me to post this photo. If not, someone pipe up right away.

Lots of potential applications for something like this.

If the beacon companies have any sense, they'll give these away to any resorts that want them. Great way to prime the beacon sales pump.

When the ski area boundry is within a National Forest I do not believe that the ski area has any obligation or maybe any business telling someone that they cannot exit on to public property. In this case I have no issue with the ski area doing what they can to keep people informed but I have every right to wander around on this land that technically belongs to you and me anyway.

As a legal matter at least, you're wrong. They often have an obligation imposed on them as part of the terms of their FS permit. Access to public lands is denied for safety reasons all the time.


As far as the lawyer side of things go, I can't really comment except to note that the ski areas' and skiers' respective obligations vary from state to state. California, often castigated as plaintiff-friendly, is actually one of the most deferential to ski areas.

[Powder Yeti]

Duty? Your duty as a user is to make informed decisions and keep yourself and your party safe. Full stop.

Once you leave the boundary, you and your group are responsible for yourselves, whether it's a twisted knee or an avalanche or you get lost. Shit happens.

Both of these statements are totally true. However, it doesn't help solve the issue of people dying or needing to be resccued. The biggest problem is obviously people not realizing what they're getting themselves into, especially those who are not used to skiing in avalanche terrain. Many of us have been there ourselves, it's just the way it is when you don't grow up around mountains.

People don't really read signs.

Again, very true. This means the best solutions is awareness and education, rather than simply putting signs at the hill. One of the biggest problems though is funding, as well as getting this rolling. Awareness campaigns cost a lot. However, so do rescues, so I'm sure if people take this on, whether it's cards or stickers or whatever, it wouldn't be too hard to get the support of some of the resorts or SAR, at the very least with distribution. I'm sure there's some companies out there too that would donate some money to get their logo on something as well. There's even a possiblilty of trying to get some ad space in some of the ski magazines to help spread the word.

If people are serious about trying to get something going (Crampedon?, Splat?) let me know, because although I don't have much free time during the winter, I'd be into trying to doing what I can, or making it a summer project.

[Bunion 2020]

Eleventy,

Yesterday we installed a cork board inside our summit station, it is located in the vestibule on the north wall. Every day that we are open up there we will try to have the days GNFAC report posted.

I also covered what to talk about in yesterdays morning meeting if folks ask about sidecountry conditions.

We will pass along any observations of activity we have seen and results of any of our control work that may apply to similar aspects nearby.

Please do understand that in order to access BC from our gate, the area must be open. If the N. Summit area is closed for a day or more, the gates are also closed. That doesn't mean you can't still go, you just have to use a different egress point.

Mad, I started this thread in an effort to help slack/side country users at the area I manage. The last thing I want is ending what I see as a great service.

Providing access to more skiing.

Part of my job is helping people to educate themselves, not hoping they will educate themselves.

[johngenx]

Unless you want to teach wilderness survival in elementary school nothing can/should be done.

Great idea. Seriously. Start in elementary and carry it right through high school. Back country travel skills are a great thing to have.

[XtrPickels]

To be honest, I don't know what you do.
We live in a society with little to no consequences, where people are insulated.

I'd love to say "Let them crash and burn, that'll teach them." That would lead to lawsuits and closures and the whole nine yards.

Beyond that education is the key, but its so difficult to reach out to people. Will people listen to a recording that plays each time someone rides a tram? The regulars will eventually stop listening, but it could scare the ones that are already nervous about being there.

An additional waiver, with simple and pointed language could be required when a ticket is bought.

People see a sign saying "you could die" and they think "Won't happen to me". I work in healthcare and see this mentality all the time. My cardiac patients say "I used to be a young hotshot once, I never thought the drinking/ diet/ smoking etc would catch up to me." Whelp, now its them and their new best friend: An oxygen tank and a tube up their nose. That has to be hard, but I digress.

I understand that this is a stressful situation for you. I applaud and thank you for the time and effort you've obviously spent thinking about this problem.

Living in upstate NY, I've come to realize how much regulation is out there. Because Joey from LongIsland with his snowblades and Arcteryx coat come to vacation every weekend, you can barely make a move without someone watching you. We have Ski Patrol, Host Patrol and Safety awareness... three different teams patrolling the mountain. Anything that is remotely interesting to ski is roped off. Dogs are leashed on all hiking trails. Bear canisters are required. You pay to park at trail heads. Yelled at if bars aren't lowered on lifts. I hope the west doesn't become what the east is.

[DictatorShooter]

Bunion - quite a bit of discussion in the summit shack today about the new MLB "policy" for the North Side. Nobody likes it. Top reasons cited for continuing to require N. Summit skiers to have avy gear:

1. Safety - if not EVERYONE in a group has gear, rescue time increases. Unlike the Coulie, the N. Summit is actual avy terrain, and as you well know, does in fact slide out.

2. Crowds - bummer for all of us who try for 2-3 laps per day.

3. Unqualified skiers - gear tends to mean (in general), a bit higher level of competency - which is a definite requirement for folks picking their way down the lower shots on the northside.

4. Back-ups - because of #3, people today were predicting times with 6-8 groups in the snowfield all backed up. Mostly, because this new policy invites new people to ski it, and they don't know where to go....so they will stop.

5. Less people will carry gear in general. Right now, if there was a slide, we could have 6-10 people with gear doing a search on the site within minutes. That's a nice army of support to have to help ski patrol in an emergency.

6. Boycotts - many people in the shack today indicated they wouldn't ski with someone in the group who had no gear. That's going to cause some trouble keeping times and groups organized.

Just some feedback. Everyone seems to understand the "marketing" importance of including the N. Summit in the "available" terrain to the public, but if a single accident occurs up there which includes skiers w/o gear, the marketing team is going to have a much bigger problem on their hands anyway.

[Bunion 2020]

Lone;

This decision did NOT come from our Marketing Dept It was the result of a meeting between myself and members of our Snow Safety Dept.

After we reached our decision I went to the GM, Mountain Manager and COO, they heard me out and agreed that this was a ski patrol decision and as such we were free to do what we feel is best.

Bunion - quite a bit of discussion in the summit shack today about the new MLB "policy" for the North Side. Nobody likes it. Top reasons cited for continuing to require N. Summit skiers to have avy gear:

1. Safety - if not EVERYONE in a group has gear, rescue time increases. Unlike the Coulie, the N. Summit is actual avy terrain, and as you well know, does in fact slide out.

We are confident in our avalanche hazard reduction program. The area would not be open if the margin of safety is the safety gear.

2. Crowds - bummer for all of us who try for 2-3 laps per day.

Well, sorry about that but people who buy a pass all deserve access to as much terrain as we can make available to them.

3. Unqualified skiers - gear tends to mean (in general), a bit higher level of competency - which is a definite requirement for folks picking their way down the lower shots on the northside.

The N. Summit is no more complex than the Headwaters.

With a BSIA pass running near 100.00 do you really think that 500.00 worth of gear will keep all the punters out?

4. Back-ups - because of #3, people today were predicting times with 6-8 groups in the snowfield all backed up. Mostly, because this new policy invites new people to ski it, and they don't know where to go....so they will stop.

So they don't deserve the chance to ski it?

5. Less people will carry gear in general. Right now, if there was a slide, we could have 6-10 people with gear doing a search on the site within minutes. That's a nice army of support to have to help ski patrol in an emergency.

Yep.

We encourage people to have the proper gear, we encourage people to ski one at a time and to observe basic safety protocols. We offer reasonably priced avalanche classes, help with Big Sky to maintain a Beacon Basin, provide GNFAC bulletins around the mountain and send observations to them every day.

This entire thread was started to talk about personal responsibility. I was told that today instead of us having to check peoples gear, they were checking each other. A great 1st step.

6. Boycotts - many people in the shack today indicated they wouldn't ski with someone in the group who had no gear. That's going to cause some trouble keeping times and groups organized.

We will deal with that when the time comes.

Just some feedback. Everyone seems to understand the "marketing" importance of including the N. Summit in the "available" terrain to the public, but if a single accident occurs up there which includes skiers w/o gear, the marketing team is going to have a much bigger problem on their hands anyway.

Again and in conclusion, our Marketing Dept. has a very important role at MLB. In this case they had no influence on this decision whatsoever.

The N. Summit has been open for skiing for 4.5 winters under the current restrictions. Our trail map clearly says that we reserve the right to waive and or all restrictions for the N. Summit at our discretion.

I do appreciate the feedback. Please talk to me with your concerns and DO NOT take this out on the patroller you may be dealing with at the Summit station.

Should you feel the need to contact me, either PM me or it shouldn't be too difficult to figure out my E-mail.

[Eleventy]

people who buy a pass all deserve access to as much terrain as we can make available to them.

The terrain is available to them now, as long as you are carrying safety gear. I don't understand how lowering the bar makes anything better.

With a BSIA pass running near 100.00 do you really think that 500.00 worth of gear will keep all the punters out?

To a large extent, yes.

So they don't deserve the chance to ski it?

This doesn't really address his concern, which I think is a valid one.

many people in the shack today indicated they wouldn't ski with someone in the group who had no gear.

I am one of those people, and I won't be skiing with people not properly equipped for the same reasons that I won't ski the north side with younger kids who have gear. I don't trust them to help me not die if I am buried.

I love skiing the north side and want to see what is best for it and for everyone involved, but I really think this is a very bad decision.

[DictatorShooter]

N. Summit skied extremely deep and epic today. Still no one I have spoken to agrees with the new policy, but none of the problems we predicted seemed to occur. Granted, this is only day 2, but President's Day Saturday with 20+ inches should have been a good test. Seems like the current theme is to keep this quiet and don't ask, don't tell, and hopefully all will be good.

Bunion - your team is the best, and no one means to question your snow safety or hazard reduction program. You make extremely hazardous terrain as safe as possible, and we all thank you for that.

Gear is easy to carry and easy to check, and it seems like the vast majority of the regulars prefer that it be mandatory. Not only on the North side, but Headwaters as well. Why not? It's still accessible to everyone with a pass, and with gear.

[Hugh Conway]

Both of these statements are totally true. However, it doesn't help solve the issue of people dying or needing to be resccued.

How is that a problem?

[The Dad]

I just want to compliment DictatorShooter. This:

no one I have spoken to agrees with the new policy, but none of the problems we predicted seemed to occur. Granted, this is only day 2, but President's Day Saturday with 20+ inches should have been a good test.

... took real balls to write.

[Zeppelinskier]

search and destroy