Why no heli skiing in California

**davieboot** · 01-28-2010, 09:43 PM

Why is there no heli skiing operations in California? I have been told that it is illegal. But I have also been told that a couple companies have tried but couldn't get off the ground for financial reasons.

Anyone know for sure? I am not debating the merits of terrain or snowpack or anything. Just wondering if there is a technical/legal reason, or if there was a financial/feasibility barrier.

**1000-oaks** · 01-28-2010, 09:49 PM

I seem to recall it's actually illegal for a chopper to land to pick up lost hikers in CA, even if they've been out in the elements for days. Gotta be a life-threatening medical emergency apparently, but I might not have any idea what I'm talking about...

**UTaho'** · 01-28-2010, 10:26 PM

Well, they aren't allowed to land in a designated wilderness area, beyond that I think they can.

There have been a few heli ops that I can recall in CA. Mammoth Heliski operated for a number of years. I skied with them on springtime specials 3 times. I think one time was a $35 drop on Mt. McGhee for 3500' vert. Another time was on Little Morrison for $50 a drop, no guide on those. On the second drop on Morrison we took our tele gear & skins & just toured around for the rest of the day. The third time was a guided 3 runs for $75 on the ridge between Mammoth & June. This was in the mid 80's.

In the late 70's we did a day with Sierra Guide Service out of Bridgeport. It was a pro deal for around $150 for the day. We skied around 25000' vert. in the mountains above Conway summit. I think they ended up crashing a bird & going out of business, but they had a ton of awesome skiable terrain & long runs.

I also recall Heavenly having heliskiing for a few years way back, where they skied up around Freel Peak. Bear Valley tried to get a heli op going at one point called Powder Bears. Don't know if that one ever got off the ground though.

**davieboot** · 01-28-2010, 10:33 PM

Ha! $50/drop in that terrain. What I would give to have that.

It seems that there is some great terrain around the state, lots of population, stable snow, etc. I am just surprised. Utah and Wyoming manage to support heli skiing (to the chagrin of many). California seems almost ideal... except maybe that the pow doesn't always last that long.

**UTaho'** · 01-28-2010, 10:43 PM

Yeah, & those prices were a lot of money to me back then. All of those trips were in the Spring, so not much pow. Some great corn though & some uh, variable conditions. Have been back to the Bridgeport/Virginia Lakes a few times BC skiing & had some great powder.

**davieboot** · 01-29-2010, 03:09 PM

bump because I am looking for some more feedback from others.

**Choucas** · 01-29-2010, 03:19 PM

I heli-skied out of somewhere around Mammoth/June Lake in the 80's. As I recall it was very reasonably priced. We had a good powder day going (skiing 203 slalom skis if I remember correctly) but it was cut short because a small plane went down in the area and they needed the chopper for search and rescue.

**skier666** · 01-29-2010, 03:38 PM

After spending tons of time in NZ and seeing all the heli-ops down there, it always strikes as weird that CA has none. Hell, they could be based in the flats of the Eastern Sierra (Bishop) or in any central valley town and in minutes you'd be zooming to the some sweet terrain. Granted, there are a lot of Wilderness areas and Nat'l Parks.....

**freemanski** · 01-29-2010, 04:04 PM

mmmmmmmmmmm

**davieboot** · 01-29-2010, 04:04 PM

Yeah, the NPS and wilderness areas don't leave much room, but there is still some, I'd imagine.

Unless this map is accurate (and I am not sure if it is... I'd have to check my quads when I get home)

http://www.wilderness.net/index.cfm?fuse=NWPS&latitude=37&longitude=-120&zoom=5

**Unfrozen Caveman Lawyer** · 01-29-2010, 04:47 PM

^^^^^ Add on top of that National Forest Land. Would assume somewhat similar mechanical restrictions (may) apply. Paging LightRanger (f/k/a Scutski).

Hugh Conway · 01-29-2010, 04:58 PM

Lots of NPS and Wilderness and the little that isn't doesn't have great snow. Add to that a local political environment that hasn't cared for motorized recreation for a long time (see 70s Yosemite SnowMo restrictions)

For "what might have been" the 27-lift ski area in Mineral King, now a part of Sequoia, or the Clouds Rest (yes, that clouds rest) ski area idea floated in the 30s.

**Unfrozen Caveman Lawyer** · 01-29-2010, 05:00 PM

Does Wolverton in Sequoia still operate?

**BGnight** · 01-29-2010, 05:10 PM

I also think militant back country skiers/riders would do covert heli "grounding" operations if they ever allowed it again in the Sierra.

I being one of them.

**bullhorn** · 01-29-2010, 05:11 PM

Originally Posted by Unfrozen Caveman Lawyer

^^^^^ Add on top of that National Forest Land. Would assume somewhat similar mechanical restrictions (may) apply. Paging LightRanger (f/k/a Scutski).

You are allowed mechanized transport in National forest land (as long as it is not designated wilderness). It is the department of interior stuff that you can't. All department of agriculture stuff is OK.

**BGnight** · 01-29-2010, 05:17 PM

Originally Posted by 1000-oaks

I seem to recall it's actually illegal for a chopper to land to pick up lost hikers in CA, even if they've been out in the elements for days. Gotta be a life-threatening medical emergency apparently, but I might not have any idea what I'm talking about...

They do rescue operations in the wilderness all the time. October of '04 they landed behind Mt Whitney in multiple spots to pick up snowbound hikers that were dumb enough to go camping at 13k feet w/ a huge snowstorm coming in.

Hugh Conway · 01-29-2010, 05:30 PM

Originally Posted by Unfrozen Caveman Lawyer

Does Wolverton in Sequoia still operate?

No - no lifts. There is a warming thing there

Early on in the history of the Ostrander Hut there were cat ski transfers to the hut, cat skiing offered, and a rope tow (or at least proposed one, can't remember) "The Perfect Art" has all kinds of cool shit

**NortheastIcerider** · 01-29-2010, 06:55 PM

Don't you know already? Like everything else in California, Heli-skiing is known to cause disease.

**LightRanger** · 01-29-2010, 08:03 PM

Originally Posted by bullhorn

You are allowed mechanized transport in National forest land (as long as it is not designated wilderness). It is the department of interior stuff that you can't. All department of agriculture stuff is OK.

Those statements are confusing (and partially wrong).

1. The BLM allows OHV use on their land and they're under the DOI. The NPS doesn't allow it, obviously. Of course, most BLM land in CA is not mountainous--at least to the extent that you'd want to heli ski on it.

2. USFS Wilderness is under the USDA, so "all" USDA stuff is not ok.

~~~~~

Most of the reasons we don't have helis in CA have already been hit. There is a LOT of designated wilderness in the High Sierra (administered both by the USFS and NPS). Helicopters/Sleds can pull people out of wilderness in life-threatening situations, but the circumstances are pretty narrow. Aircraft aren't even allowed to fly over wilderness below a certain elevation, although pilots from Edwards and China Lake flaunt these restrictions in the winter.

CA also has more stringent environmental standards than a lot of other states (i.e. the California Environmental Quality Act). CEQA is similar to the NEPA process at the federal level, but is in many cases stricter.

And, as HC mentioned, our political environment isn't super friendly to motorized access.

And, personally, fuck heli skiing in CA. I wouldn't mind a (decent) cat op or two, but the proportionate impact of helicopters on other user groups is high. Don't Wasatch the Sierra.

**hutash** · 01-29-2010, 08:26 PM

I would imagine the permit process would be just about impossible to resolve in California these days. Just about anything worth skiing is National Park or Forest Service. While technically legal (except in wilderness), it just ain't going to happen here anytime soon. Same goes for cat skiing. Mammoth does operate a tourist cat, but it stays on the closed highway, or on their permitted land (they run tourists out to a view point or a mid gondola station dinner.)

VC · 01-29-2010, 10:01 PM

Originally Posted by BGnight

I also think militant back country skiers/riders would do covert heli "grounding" operations if they ever allowed it again in the Sierra.

I being one of them.

Its amazing how militant people are about their wilderness and also how much unused wilderness there is in this state.

**Hacksaw** · 01-29-2010, 10:02 PM

1980: Mammoth Heli-ski starts operations. There is a lengthy article by Matthew Krane, in the 1981 Powder Magazine Photo Annual, about the trials and tribulations of starting the Mammoth Heli-ski company.

I have no idea when or why they went out of business.

**powder_prophet** · 01-29-2010, 10:19 PM

Originally Posted by VC

how much unused wilderness there is in this state.

Isn't that the point?

**FreakofSnow** · 01-29-2010, 10:54 PM

Originally Posted by powder_prophet

Isn't that the point?

Is my sarcasm meter broke?

**splat** · 01-29-2010, 11:08 PM

It is about wilderness. All the best slopes are in locked up wilderness and/or proposed wilderness additions, such as the Hoover Wilderness and the proposed addition area west of Bridgeport. I investigated the opportunities with a friend who has an AK heli op about ten years ago. The most viable area we found was between Kirkwood to Heavenly but we expected strong public opposition from the small population that exists from Hope Valley to Carson Pass. There might be some spots out there, but heli terrain requires a fair sized patch of operations territory so people get the fresh they expect. Linking together a large area that doesn't require a ton of fuel and time to get to is crucial.