Lost - the final season

[The AD]

I'd be surprised if Jack's ex wife is not Juliet.

[LARRY01]

So who is going to show up as Jack's alternate universe ex-wife? My money is on Juliet.[/QUOTE]


My bet is Kate. Jack has a son in the alternate universe. Didn't Kate and Jack do it last season? Don't know about the time line on that though.

[The AD]

Can't be Kate. Kate was on the flight with Jack and they didn't know each other.

[pappag]

Juliet does appear a likely candidate on paper to be Jack's ex-wife, but with Rose/Bernard and Helen/Locke still together in the alt universe, one can imagine that Sarah is still involved.

Other thoughts:
- how did Claire know that "they" left the island? was she in hiding the whole time but still living close by to witness what had happened and to hear conversations during the time flashing?
- Claire didn't seem the least bit surprised that Jin was speaking perfect English
- if MIB/Locke and Christian Shephard are Claire's "friends", then would it be safe to assume that Christian is evil?
- ignore the whole 108 degrees (108 = 4+8+15+16+23+42, 108 = countdown in minutes inside the hatch, and more) on the wheel thing ... that wasn't the point of the lighthouse scene but rather the point was to get Jack to see that he's special
- regarding the wheel, on it was inscribed "seus siyd dadru oyt ube cafru oyt on wohsi" which reads backwards as "I show not your face but your daddy issues".
- Adam and Eve: if you remember way back when, one body had a block rock and the other a white one ... could these bodies represent leaders for MIB and Jacob? Either way, probably won't get answered.
- Dogen says something foreign to Hurley to which Jacob replies, "You don't want to know" ... translation: “I have to protect you? That’s just great. If I don’t leave now, I’d probably separate your neck from your body.”
- this episode features another instance in alt universe where Jack sees something in the mirror he doesn't recognize: his appendix scare (first was the cut on his neck on the airplane).
- isn't it redundant to have two lists of names with numbers attached to them: one in the cave and one in the lighthouse? perhaps the cave belongs to MIB and lighthouse to Jacob or vice versa.

[The AD]

- if MIB/Locke and Christian Shephard are Claire's "friends", then would it be safe to assume that Christian is evil?

I don't think so. How do we know MIB is evil? The Others seem to think he is, but we don't know for sure.

[neckdeep]

I don't think so. How do we know MIB is evil? The Others seem to think he is, but we don't know for sure.

What is "Evil". There is the gothic, medieval christian version of the Devil, which is a grotesque boogeyman who is condemned to Hell etc. That is dark ages mumbo jumbo with little actual basis in the original texts. The precursor of that in the Old Testament is ha-Satan, or "the accuser". In the Koran, he was called Iblis. ha-Satan is an angel ( a Djinn in the Koran) and his "evil", as such, was his jealousy and disdain for Man, God's lesser creation. Regarding Man, Iblis says to Allah, "I am better than he. Thou created me from fire and him from clay." Man is given free will but the angels are denied free will and ordered to bow to Adam. Iblis/ha-Satan refuses and takes up the peril of free will, judgement. But the point is, God, Allah, Yaweh, Jehovah etc. dismisses this rebellious entity to the physical world and allows him to make his case by testing Man's capacity for free will. The Accuser simply does not believe Man has the moral capacity for free will and makes his point by tricking Man into doing all that we now call "evil". This is echoed in Jacob and the Nemesis' argument where the Nemesis says "it always ends the same" when men come to the island and Jacob says "it only ends once, everything else before that is just progress." Ultimately, the only hope ha-Satan has is to deceive Man into self-destruction and, thereby, "win" his dispute with his master and free himself of his punishment. That is the classic Western concept of "evil" and it seems like the writers of Lost are cribbng heavily from the original source material. Richard says to Sawyer that the Nemesis "wants everybody dead", presumably to free himself.

[peterslovo]

OK, someone refresh my memory...

There's a scene from last season (I think), where Locke (I think) goes to the Cabin where Jacob is...if I recall, inside the Cabin were Claire and Christian. Didn't the Cabin have ash spread around it to protect it from Smokey? Or was the ash disturbed? If it wasn't, how was Christian (who we are assuming may have been Smokey) inside?

And was it Locke that saw them there (with Ben maybe? or was it Hurley? don't remember)...

For some reason, this scene came back to me and is gnawing at me after watching the last episode.

[pappag]

OK, someone refresh my memory...

There's a scene from last season (I think), where Locke (I think) goes to the Cabin where Jacob is...if I recall, inside the Cabin were Claire and Christian. Didn't the Cabin have ash spread around it to protect it from Smokey? Or was the ash disturbed? If it wasn't, how was Christian (who we are assuming may have been Smokey) inside?

And was it Locke that saw them there (with Ben maybe? or was it Hurley? don't remember)...

For some reason, this scene came back to me and is gnawing at me after watching the last episode.

Locke's first visit:

After demanding to see Jacob (in S4 I believe), Ben brought Locke to the cabin from the Others' camp. Arriving at night, they first encountered a line of ash around the cabin and stepped carefully over it before approaching the cabin.

Disgusted with Ben's charade, Locke turned to leave when he heard a low voice say "Help me," that Ben did not seem to hear. Turning back to the room, Locke accused Ben of speaking, but Ben denied that he had. Switching on his flashlight and sweeping it around the room, both men appeared shocked when the room began to shake. Objects shook violently and flew across the room, a rocking chair suddenly began to move of its own accord, and the lamp fell to the floor and caught fire. Ben grabbed ahold of the chair he had addressed before, telling him he'd had his fun, but was thrown back against the far wall by a mysterious force. Looking back across the room, for a split second, Locke saw a mysterious individual sitting there.

Moments later, upon fleeing the cabin, both men appeared somewhat shaken. Locke asked what had just happened, and Ben responded, "That was Jacob." Of course we know this isn't the case.




Hurley's visit:

Approaching the cabin gingerly, and peering in through, Hurley saw Christian Shephard sitting in a rocking chair, when suddenly someone else's eye appeared at the window. Hurley screamed, and ran directly away from the building, but suddenly came up short a short distance away when he found himself literally in front of the cabin again. To all appearances, the cabin had seemingly shifted location. As the front door of the cabin began to slowly open, Hurley shut his eyes, concentrating and telling himself it was not real over and over. Upon reopening his eyes, the cabin was gone.

Hurley did not observe the circle of ash surrounding the cabin. Later, when Locke mentioned that the group was going to the cabin, Hurley seemed to feel that they were going the wrong direction.




Locke's second visit:

On attempting to return to the cabin with his group, Locke was unable to locate the building. Strangely, however, he did find the same circle of ash at the same location.




Locke's third visit:

Following a dream in which he met Horace Goodspeed, Locke located a set of blueprints on Horace's corpse found at the mass grave of DHARMA Initiative members killed in the Purge. The blueprints contained a map of the cabin's location on the Island in addition to detailed specifications on the construction fo the building. Using the map as a guide, Locke was able to successfully return to the cabin with Ben and Hurley. Declining to join him, the two men elected to wait outside while Locke entered on his own. Ben stated that he would not enter the cabin as Locke was now the leader of the Others.

Entering, Locke found the same dirty ramshackle interior with the exception of finding Christian Shephard sitting in the shadows. Locke asked, "Are you Jacob?" Christian introduced himself and claimed he could speak on Jacob's behalf. Locke was then perplexed to discover Claire also sitting nearby, smiling calmly. On asking what she was doing there, Claire told Locke not to worry, that she was here with Christian. Seeing Locke beginning to ask questions about her presence, Christian abruptly brought Locke's attention back to the matter at hand: Keamy's mercenaries returning in the helicopter from the freighter. Locke asked, "How do I save the Island?"

Locke emerged from the cabin a few minutes later, informing Hurley and Ben that Jacob wanted them "to move the Island."




Ilana's visit:

Three years later in 2007, Ilana, Bram, Frank and the other members of Ilana's group arrived at the cabin carrying the large airline crate containing Locke's corpse. On approaching the building, Bram noticed the ash circle was broken and shouted a warning to Ilana. Entering the cabin cautiously, Ilana found it abandoned and empty, but for a small scrap of cloth held to the wall with a knife. Removing it, she found the cloth contain a small stylized image of the statue of Taweret. Exiting the cabin, Ilana informed Bram that Jacob was not there, that he had not been at the cabin in a long time and that someone else was using it. She then ordered the others to set fire to the cabin. The group departed, leaving the structure to burn.

[pappag]

I think it's key knowing that Jacob had not been in the cabin for a long time and someone else had been using it. If we recall when Smokey killed Bram at the beginning of this season, Bram created a ring of ash around him that offered protection against Smokey. When Jacob's body burned, Locke recovered the ashes. I'm speculating that the ash of dead bodies that were once inhabited by Smokey protects you against his wrath. But how did Bram prepare himself? And perhaps the ash of Jacob's followers protects you against Jacob (think about the ash surrounding the cabin being inhabited by someone NOT Jacob).

When the ring was found broken by Bram and Ilana, that made it seem like Smokey/MIB was on the loose. Could this have happened because of the loophole that allowed what ever was in the cabin to vacate it and pass through the ash? If so, then Smokey must have been inhabiting Christian's body before transferring over to Locke. This of course doesn't explain why Locke saw Christian before turning the wheel, but they both could have been in a year before the cabin was even built. On the flipside, with Christian controlled by Smokey, that would explain a lot.


EDIT - after some reading, I'm a firm believer that the ash circle around the cabin was used to contain Smokey/MIB. Again, if you recall, Ilana and company asked repeatedly of Frank and the other survivors, "What lies in the shadow of the temple?" Clearly, the temple is Jacob's home and not the cabin. The knife through the tapestry (which represents Jacob) was a sign from Smokey/MIB to Jacob's followers that Smokey/MIB is on the loose.

[char]

Just going to throw this out there:

What if MIB is the good guy?

[BSS]

Then why would MIB have killed Eko? He was a button pusher, and (until then) the island seemed to have somehow redeemed him of his past transgressions.

[Dantheman]

When Jacob's body burned, Locke recovered the ashes.

Wasn't it Ilana that collected the ashes? I don't recall Locke/MIB doing it.

Just going to throw this out there:

What if MIB is the good guy?

That was floated awhile ago. I hope it is not the case, it is such an easy and obvious plot twist that I will be seriously disappointed in the writers if they go that direction.

[pappag]

Wasn't it Ilana that collected the ashes? I don't recall Locke/MIB doing it.

Yeah, you're right ... it was Ilana.

That was floated awhile ago. I hope it is not the case, it is such an easy and obvious plot twist that I will be seriously disappointed in the writers if they go that direction.

My thoughts on what to expect constantly flipped, but perhaps Jacob is evil and MiB is good.0Remember when Frank met Ilana and Bram after the Ajira crash? Bram said that they were the good guys. Frank then turned to Sun and said, "In my experience, people who go out of their way to say they're the good guys usually aren't the good guys." I think a plot twist is inevitable and what better way to generate DVD sales than forcing everyone to rewatch the entire series (again) after learning that Jacob isnt the good guy?

Interesting MIB theories here, notably MIB being Jacob's prisoner and Sawyer now the replacement so that MIB can go "home":
http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/The_...Black/Theories



And further down ...

The Man in Black isn't Evil, likewise Jacob isn't Good. They seem to have a slightly antagonistic relationship but Jacob often refers to MiB as 'my friend'. They seem to have a polite if not strained friendship. The Game that they play has no consequences for them but only for the people involved. Jacob, however kind he may appear in the flashback scenes, seems callous and uncaring when he says, "It only ends once. Everything else that happens is just progress." MiB on the other hand doesn't seem the relish the thought of the ship coming to Island because he forsees the death and destruction that they either bring with them or that will befall them when they arrive. It's at this moment that he expresses the desire to kill Jacob, he's tired of Jacob's games and tired of the same outcome.

While posing as Locke after Ben kills Jacob and Jacob's bodyguards enter the temple, he seems to pity them as bodyguards of Jacob, he tells them that Jacob is dead and they are free. He shows them more compassion in the moments before they shoot him than Jacob ever showed Ben. The fact that he kills them after they shoot at him would seem to suggest that he is evil, however he later appears embarassed when he speaks to Ben and says, "I'm sorry you had to see me like that." He feels pity for Ben and the years that Jacob ignored him while Ben blindly did whatever was asked of him, ignored the tumour on his spine, allowed the death of his daughter. The killing of bodyguards was justified because they ultimately would have killed Ben as he was the actual murderer.

He mocks John Locke and calls him weak, but also expresses admiration for being the "only one who realized how pitiful the life he left behind actually was". Later when Hurley asks Jacob how he died Jacob replies, "I was killed by an old friend who grew tired of my company." He accepts the actions of his 'friend' and doesn't seem the least bit upset about it, after he saw it coming, allowed it happen. He planted the seed of dissent a long time ago and waited for MiB to finally find the loophole. The loophole that Jacob always knew he'd find. "...I'm gonna find a loophole my friend." "Well, when you do I'll be right here." Jacob has been manipulating MiB and the inhabitants of the Island. MiB just wants to go home.

[Elkhound Odin]

Finally, some action and destruction. Smokey laying waste to the others and Sayid doing what he does best. It's nice to see he's the same person in Lostland and alternate world. A cold killer.

Did we see the setup for the merging of the two universes when Smokey promised Sayid he'd get his wife back? But, does that mean Sayid has to kill his brother in the otherworld?

Did anyone notice the quick flash of Jack walking past Sayid in the hospital?

[peterslovo]

Awesome to see Smokey kickin' some ass. I wonder if Samurai was like Jacob in that Smokey couldn't enter the Temple or kill him, and had to have someone else do it (i.e., Sayid), like Ben had to kill Jacob. The pawns are in action....

Why the hell was Jin in the freezer where Sayid shot the mercenary?

I have to think more about the episode. Lots happened.

[The AD]

A thought crossed my mind last night. What if the "candidates" on Jacob's list are all candidates to prevent something from happening off the island? All of their lives seem intertwined in the alternate world off the island, so maybe Jacob knew some event would bring them all together off the island and he brought each one to the island to see if they had the grit needed to alter whatever it is that's going to happen off the island. I think this would be a good twist because everyone is assuming they were brought to the island for some specific purpose on the island.

When Smokey wreaked havoc on the temple last night I thought "OK, that seals it, MIB is the bad guy," but does it? After all, Jacob's disciples were responsible for the purge, so both MIB and Jacob are capable of mass killings. The only difference is Jacob doesn't seem to want the blood on his hands. He gets others to do his dirty work, but both are very adept at manipulating people.

One more thing. Did I miss something in the conversation between Sayid and Dogen? When Sayid returned from his encounter with Locke/MIB, he said that Dogen had two opportunities to kill him, but did not, and why? Dogen's answer didn't really answer the question, IMO. He revealed that he came to the island to save his son, but never mentions why he couldn't kill Sayid. Any ideas on this?

[pappag]

Sayid's convo with Locke certainly sounded like a deal with the devil in the making. Interesting to see that Jacob made a similar promise with Samurai regarding his dead son, although we don't know if it was fulfilled. Could it be that neither is good or evil depending on how you perceive their agenda?

[Greydon Clark]

Will it matter that undead Locke hasn’t spoken to Kate, but just looked at her as the Army of Darkness marched into the jungle?

[summit]

Jacob and Nemesis are both assholes IMO. They both use people. Nemesis seems a little more straight up though... he at least doesn't leave the people working for him out to die like Jacob. Jacob brings people to the island, doesn't tell them shit, leads them on, and lets them die.

[LARRY01]

I am interested to see what happens between Kate and Clair....maybe some hot lesbo action???

[char]

Anyone know how long Locke was "dead" for prior to MIB taking him over? Seems like right around 3 days.

Seems like there is a little bit of the Rapture playing out here as well. Come to me and I will save you from eternal damnation...

Greydon- Maybe Kate will be able to kill MIB since he hasn't talked to her yet.

[The AD]

Does Kate know it's not really Locke? I know she saw him dead in LA, but then again there he is, in the flesh. Everyone else seemed to think it was Locke until they saw Locke's actual corpse in the coffin, after all, and Kate wasn't there.

[pappag]

Do I understand this correctly - anyone that was touched by Jacob can never die? Meaning Sayid is still the same person and not infected or claimed by someone else?

Pretty wild to see Ben completely unselfish when not under the influence of Jacob. And apparently the DI still existed in the alt universe.

[geomorph]

Hmmm. By that reasoning Locke is also not dead since he also was touched. I'm still not sure what to think about that episode. Ben is certainly not completely unselfish in the alternate universe. He still has Napoleonic tendencies (reference to Elba) but I think the alternate universe reflects the "true" nature of the characters. IE, Sayid is a straight up killer in his heart of hearts but has good intentions and Linus is a bit of a Machiavellii, but cares most about his "daughter".

I'm interested about the return of Witmore. I also thought the transition of Jack to a "man of faith" was the biggest development of the show.

[The AD]

I think you guys are missing a key point: those touched by Jake can't be killed by their own hand. That, after all, is why Richard wanted Jack to light the dynamite.

So was Michael touched by Jacob? Remember when he couldn't kill himself after he left the island several seasons back.