Spongy feeling avid brakes.

[Jethro]

I have Avid ultimate sl brakes and my wife has juicy sevens on her bike. My problem is that they both need to be pumped up and the levers are spongy even then. My old Hayes HFX never needed a bleed and were very firm. I am more impressed by them than the Avids, which is unheard of for most people. I have two KTM dirt bikes and also bleed my vehicles' and sport bike's brakes. I know how to bleed brakes. I have repeatedly done the Avid bleeds to no avail. I have followed various videos on Youtube on Avid bleeding. Their system is one of the most thorough that I have encountered, with the vacuum de-airing. What gives? Does anyone have any input or advice?

[ren]

Check the sram website. Those brakes have the ability to bleed them in sections which when you learn how to do this is much more effective than the old "push pull system". Takes some practice but once you get it you'll like it. If that doesn't work have a mechanic check out the master cylinder or replace your lines which is cheap.

[uncle crud]

First I'd check the comparisons on lever feel before you assume it needs bleeding. Avid brakes are made by Formula, I believe. Formula brakes are extremely progressive in feel. Very soft lever feel. The exact opposite of a Hayes DH brake, in fact.

Even if Avids aren't made by Formula, they still are a soft feeling brake compared to a Hayes DH or an old Hope. They're like Magura Julies and Magura Louises, a very soft and progressive lever feel that applies power through lever travel not through brute hydraulic force delivered with minimal lever travel.

What I'm saying is, you might be trying to get a lever feel that simply isn't achievable with this brake.

[ren]

avids are supported by sram. Formulas are made by formula. I can get my avids feeling touchier than any hayes on the market. You just have to learn to bleed them properly.

[YoEddy]

From day one I had nuthin but problems with my front brake (Ultimate) feeling spongy,and sometimes when I'd pull the bike down (hanging from front wheel) the lever would go to the bar and I'd have to "pump it up". Bled them several times and the fluid was always dirty ... it would be fine for a ride or two, and then back to the sponginess.

Anyway, I replaced the seal and piston, and voila! Problem gone, and they feel great.

[uncle crud]

avids are supported by sram. Formulas are made by formula. I can get my avids feeling touchier than any hayes on the market. You just have to learn to bleed them properly.

someone makes them for Avid. it's not SRAM. SRAM is a drivetrain company.

[summitmtn420]

not sure if this helps but. . . . I have had to bleed my codes on the dh bike w/ the bike pointing up in the air (as if I was riding a wall)-- this helped give my rear brake a good bleed-- the best youtube vid was the one w/ greg herbold--- I flick the hell out of the lever in that portion of the bleed--- w/ my codes the heat build wears the fluid down quickly and they need multiple bleeds through out the summer-- - I have had one avid break that didn't need bleeding for a very long time, then I bleed it many times to no avail-- the fluid had gotten so crappy they needed to be pretty much flushed out w/ new fluid. This is why I often run a few cycles of fluid through the line.

probably not the prob but make sure the lines don't have any supper small holes. I would probably just keep bleeding them. Avid products seem to require more maintenance but imo are a higher performance product. Just keep that fluid fresh good luck (they are harder to deal w/ then hayes, but I think worth it).

[Jethro]

First I'd check the comparisons on lever feel before you assume it needs bleeding. Avid brakes are made by Formula, I believe. Formula brakes are extremely progressive in feel. Very soft lever feel. The exact opposite of a Hayes DH brake, in fact.

Even if Avids aren't made by Formula, they still are a soft feeling brake compared to a Hayes DH or an old Hope. They're like Magura Julies and Magura Louises, a very soft and progressive lever feel that applies power through lever travel not through brute hydraulic force delivered with minimal lever travel.

What I'm saying is, you might be trying to get a lever feel that simply isn't achievable with this brake.

Perfect description! It is not that the brakes do not work well, it is that the levers feel soft. I was used to the Hayes pads hitting the disc and there being a very hard feeling of resistance.. Both pairs of Avids have a soft feeling, like something is giving. I do not know if it is air or line flex.

It could be my bleeding, but I did isolate the caliper, then bled up through the system, and then bled the master cylinder. My wife's had some air in them, but even still they do not feel as stiff as I am used to. She is not complaining as she loves them. I may just have to get used to a more progressive feeling lever.

Thanks everyone for the input

[Stealthb4]

someone makes them for Avid. it's not SRAM. SRAM is a drivetrain company.

This is false. They make all their products. Why would Formula make avid brakes? Sram makes avid and Rock Shox.

[creaky fossil]

This is false. They make all their products. Why would Formula make avid brakes? Sram makes avid and Rock Shox.

You have confused these ideas:

SRAM = parent company

and

SRAM = master mfr of everything sold by a subsidiary

I'm well aware that SRAM owns Avid. And RockShox.

It's a lot like Giant making frames for other big mfrs. Ya know?

[drsmonkey]

Jethro,

Are you getting air bubbles out each time you bleed? Does the feel of the lever start out OK then get worse? If so the hydraulic system is compromised somewhere. Check caliper seals, MC seals, and around the hose connections for fluid.

I've had a cracked barb leaking into the area between the hose outer and lining before that had similar symptoms. I couldn't figure it out until I took the hose of the MC to check the seals and found the bulge in the hose.

If you aren't getting any air bubbles when you bleed it could be a couple things.

How old is your bottle of DOT fluid? If it has been sitting around for a while it could be contaminated with water, get a fresh bottle and try again.

It could just be the feel of your brakes too. I had a set of Juicy's that came on a bike and I couldn't stand the feel.

Good luck.

P.S. Who cares who manufactures Avids, the feel is a result of the design not what factory the parts are machined in.

[toast2266]

in my experience, the problem with bleeding avids is that there are significant portions of the hydraulic line that aren't between the bleed screws, and thus if there's an air pocket in one of those parts, it can be a bitch to get out. Do a lot of tapping while bleeding, especially on the lever, and maybe try hanging the brake, caliper end up for ~24 hrs. You can also try flicking the lever a little while bleeding.

But yeah, like CF said, the "firmest" avids are still generally going to be "squishier" than the old hayes.

[LaBelle23]

not sure if this helps but. . . . I have had to bleed my codes on the dh bike w/ the bike pointing up in the air (as if I was riding a wall)-- this helped give my rear brake a good bleed-- the best youtube vid was the one w/ greg herbold--- I flick the hell out of the lever in that portion of the bleed--- w/ my codes the heat build wears the fluid down quickly and they need multiple bleeds through out the summer-- - I have had one avid break that didn't need bleeding for a very long time, then I bleed it many times to no avail-- the fluid had gotten so crappy they needed to be pretty much flushed out w/ new fluid. This is why I often run a few cycles of fluid through the line.

probably not the prob but make sure the lines don't have any supper small holes. I would probably just keep bleeding them. Avid products seem to require more maintenance but imo are a higher performance product. Just keep that fluid fresh good luck (they are harder to deal w/ then hayes, but I think worth it).

We have had the same experience with the codes and juicys. One year we bled my front juicy 7 ~20 times before we finally got it to take. Now I haven't bled it for 3 seasons -- go figure However, they have been great brakes since that season. My codes that are 3 seasons old have always needed a lot of bleeds, and I go through pads quickly when doing a lot of lift served, but that have performed well.