Tip Rocker v. Early Rise

[Professor]

So I am seeing "tip rocker" and "early rise" tossed around like they are different things. However, arent they the exact same thing? I believe Rossi calls the tip and tail on the S7 "early rise", but other skis with similar profiles are described as having a "rockered shovel and tail". Just curious if I am missing something. Oh and go ahead and bring on the "early rise" = "morning wood" jokes, cuz I know you just cant help it.

Now I have to go back to watching Marshal's Mountain Dew auction to see if I win or not

[volklpowdermaniac]

I' don't think they are the same thing at all. My kuro's have early rise which is reverse camber but it rises "early" from the center of the ski, and gradually.

My mother ships have tip rocker, which have regular camber underfoot and then are rockered at the tips.

I could be totally off base, but I think they are different, I would intuitively say the above description is right, but an expert is needed.

[Professor]

You point out the exact confusion I am talking about. Who says one of your skis is an early rise vs. being rockered. Isnt is just a matter of how much tip rocker or early rise each ski has. The shape of the shovel and how it is described doesnt change depending on if a ski has camber or not, does it? If they really are different, can anyone give me a definition of each that isnt relying on whether a ski has camber or not.

[whyturn]

There is actually a good article in 1st issue of ski magazine. i think Pontoon and Kuro are great examples of the two and since I have skiied both i can provide input. Rocker on toons is much more pronounced and ski is usually flat underfoot. Kuro is very curved from contact pt above toe pc. i just picked up a pair of S7 and it seems more like the toons. However EP had "early rise and it also had very abrupt what I would call rocker. Anyway, I think they are gimmicks and words. They work in different ways and I did not like Kuro, but I love toons, ARG and I imaging the future S7 this season. I also like EP pro (but sold it to fund S7 purchase) But, like I said it had rocker.

Oh, heres one, Armada calls it elf shoe and rossi calls it amptek and you can me joe or you can call me................just call me when the pow shows up cause whatever you call it, it works................

[Professor]

Again, I am not talking about the entire ski, just the tips.... or tails. I understand a "rockered ski" like the spatula vs something like the S7 that has camber underfoot. But when it comes to the shovel alone, what is rocker and what is early rise? If the ski is flat underfoot, or has any camber at all, when the tip starts away from the snow isnt early rise and rocker the same thing? Obviously there are different magnitudes of it, but isnt it the same thing? Personally I think outside a truly rockered ski (ie reverse camber) that it is just semantics. But am I missing something?

[El Chupacabra]

IMHO, all the tip rocker designs you're seeing on 2010 skis (including carry-over designs from 2009) are what I would call "tip rocker." I'd consider an "early rise tip" design something like the Sanouk.

[TCK]

Let's not forget that a lot of the rocker jargon floating around has to do with the marketing machine. Not only does every company need to differentiate their product from their competition (see the EP Pro vs Hellbent. Same rocker profile, but Line calls it early rise, and K2 calls it rocker), but they also have to make it accessible to everyone. I'm sure the term early rise had a lot to do with not wanting to scare off jongs new to the rocker revolution. There might be some patent/trademark issues thrown in there as well. I know McConkey and Volant didn't originally patent the rocker concept, but maybe someone has a trademark on the term?

IMO there are three terms to watch out for: 1. Rocker (flat underfoot, turned up tips and tails) 2. Reverse Camber (fully reverse camber i.e. Praxis pow, Spats, and Kuro) 3. Recurve (traditional camber coupled with rocker i.e. S7, JJ, etc). Each one of these camber variations dramatically affect how a ski handles in varying conditions. Of course you can argue all day. Everyone seems to have their own opinion on the rocker debate.

[Treepinner]

When you order custom skis from companies like Folsom or Wagner, you can specify standard flex, early rise, or rocker. The difference is both where the rise starts and the flex pattern and they can get very detailed on the parameters.

However, the terms as used by the mass market companies do fall more into the marketing-speak category and their definitions are not at all standardized. Wagner has flex profiles they've collected for most of the skis found in stores and there isn't much consistency on terminology.

[westoxified]

Let's add 4. Delayed contact, like the Atomic Coax. A ski that, when decambered, brings the contact point back from the tip.

Is that like the Sanouk?

[pechelman]

Rocker = continuous curvature from end of tip curvature to "midbody"
Early rise = negatively cambered section of ski between end of tip curvature and midbody

id not classify sanouks as early rise, so much as Id call those big giant long shovels.

to some extent, yes, this is semantics
it really doesnt matter


edit to attach a stupid picture

and I REALLY want to stress

It really doesnt matter what you call it.

edit 2
im thinking now
WTF does "EARLY rise" really mean?
Typical skis dont "rise" at all, its just called a tip.
i think early rise is a stupid term.
From someone with a hockey and rocking chair background, I like the term rocker. But it doesnt matter. This is stupid.

[stav_on_snow]

yeah i think pechelman made a really good point with his drawing and everything. really the bottom line is, in relation to the entire length of the ski, rocker will be much more pronounced than early rise. but if you want the best input, just go to a store and look at a couple different pairs. thats all you can really do in the end if youre trying to choose one. just look at them and see how much rise they actually have and make your decision based on that.

[Treepinner]

Pechies drawing is a good start. But ski makers can use any camber/flex they want at the mid-section and tail. Wouldn't say it doesn't matter but it's only part of the equation.

[jerr]

Early rise =
What does it look like - the tip curves up a little (5cm-ish) earlier than you are used to seeing on a trad ski.
What it does - This helps the ski get up to the top of the snow a bit more than a normal tip shape would. Ski still feels like a traditional ski.

Tip rise/tip rocker =
What does it look like - a significant length (~15cm+) of the fore-body of the skis move away from one another when they are held together
What it does - Ski feels less engaging, releases easier - great for soft, not so much for hard.

I think the effect is the defining feature. That's how I see it. I hope it helps.

[iscariot]

Posting my opinion in this very important thread.

IMHO rocker = K2 hellbent

IMHO early rise = 4frnt EHP

if you look at the differences in the profile of these two skis and understand how each design affects the behavior of a ski, you'll understand what I mean.

[Vitamin I]

Add "splay" to the list. Maybe DPS will chime in. I think he talks about "splay", "rocker", "tip upturn/curvature", and other terms as though they are separate design concepts.

Would be cool to know the official definitions according to ski/waterski/surfboard/boat hull designer people, even if all the ski companies stray from the official definitions anyway.

I agree with pech that a section of ski should not be deemed "rockered" unless that section is curved, without kinks or straight parts in that section. Like a smooth curve rocking chair, rocking baby cradle, etc

At first I thought "splay" was a good word for straight sections that are elevated off snow because of a kink (e.g. Pontoon is kinked and pretty straight, instead of curvy rocker). But on 2nd thought, I don't like using a word that applies only to a base-to-base scenario, because you don't ride skis when they are base-to-base, and you don't design skis for base-to-base properties. "Splay" would not make sense for boat hull/surfboard/snowboard designs, because they don't come in pairs and they don't have any base-to-base scenarios, so I won't encourage that word in ski design.

"Tip upturn/curvature" is the final abrupt upturn at the very end, if any.

Not sure what "early rise" really is---sounds like a vague term that would have a vague definition.

"Early taper" seems meaningful so far (indicates the widest part of the front is further from the end of tip than a traditional design, like Line has done for years, and now more pronounced in the S7-type designs).

.

[Professor]

edit 2
im thinking now
WTF does "EARLY rise" really mean?
Typical skis dont "rise" at all, its just called a tip.
i think early rise is a stupid term.
From someone with a hockey and rocking chair background, I like the term rocker. But it doesnt matter. This is stupid.

I am glad that I agree with one person on this thread. Also glad to know that I really wasnt missing anything at all

Edit: I also cant spell

[TeleThor]

Here's what I thought:

Rocker: Longer, more pronounced lift.

Early Rise: Shorter, less pronounced lift.

Example: Megawatt's substantial rocker vs. EHP or Lhasa's more subtle and shorter early rise.

I think they are somewhat determined by the rest of the ski, but only by the % of the whole ski length in which they are present, like 30 cm or 10 cm of the total length. To me, they have nothing to do with curvature, or the camber or lack thereof under the ski. Case in point, Surface Live Life 2s. Big "rocker" or "rise" starting not far from the front of the binding. There's no curvature, but rather a constant incline until the tip, and it's flat underfoot. Don't tell me that this ski is early rise and not rockered because it has no curvature.

In the end it's all techy ski jargon that doesn't matter as long as you know what you want in a ski.

[marshalolson]

WHO FUCKING CARES? IT ALL MEANS THE SAME THING.

just go check the skis out and buy what you think will work the best.

for fuck's sake.

[Particle]

They are the exact same thing. In general early rise is just used as a less-pronounced subset of rocker.

You must be extra bored today.

[Stikki]

It's all semantics and marketing BS. The only skis that are rockered are those that are fully reverse cambered, everything else is just fancy tip designs.

[Professor]

They are the exact same thing. In general early rise is just used as a less-pronounced subset of rocker.

You must be extra bored today.

No.... I was extra bored yesterday

[pfluffenmeister]

They are the exact same thing. In general early rise is just used as a less-pronounced subset of rocker.

dingdingdingding .... we have a winner!

[2FUNKY]

Tip Rocker= Able to still pee in toilet
Early Rise= Must pee in shower

[Vitamin I]

...Surface Live Life 2s...There's no curvature, but rather a constant incline until the tip, and it's flat underfoot. Don't tell me that this ski is early rise and not rockered because it has no curvature...

Well, what did the word "rocker" mean before the ski companies started using it? Did it require curvature and smooth back and forth periodic motion? Or just any self-righting, whether smooth or not, whether single- or multi-period?

Very few skiers have experienced the subtle differences between performance/feel of these fine variations in tip profile. It would be nice to have precise language that everyone can understand, but whatever---people can even understand that "BAAAADDDDD!!!" sometimes means "good".

.

[LightRanger]

Hard to compare to boats because they just call it rocker and don't use the words "early rise" and "camber."

I was at a canoe/kayak clinic the other day and the clinician referred to rockered hulls just like you would generalize and say "rockered skis."

I'd imagine a board shaper may have something different to say.