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  1. #1
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    Intuitions vs. stock liners - anyone prefer stock?

    I've been using Intuition liners for about the last 3 years. Just got some new boots (27.5 Atomic Hawx 110, BSL 316), and was fiddling around with them last night while comparing them to the old ones (27.5 Atomic m100, BSL 317). Both boots have about the same shape: narrow heel, wide forefoot (m100 is slightly wider than Hawx), same forward lean, same cuff height. In shell fit with bare feet, they're pretty close.

    Strangely, the stock liners on the new boots feel more comfortable than the Intuitions in the old boots, even though the Intuitions were baked to fit my feet and have a full season of use on them, and the Intuitions also have my custom footbeds in them. The new boots have stock, unmolded liners, with Sidas Conformable footbeds (these came with the Hawx).

    Anyone prefer stock liners over the Intuition? Just curious...

  2. #2
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    Frankly, I think it really depends on the liner/boot. For instance, the stock liners on Garmont boots are terrible (even the new "revamped" G-fit).

    One thing to note, the liner on the new boots may feel good out of box, but you can't really know how it will hold up. I have found that is the biggest advantage to Intuition liners - they last a long time.

  3. #3
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    no ,never ... not even close

    sounds like you got a perfect fit on a stock liner ... just feel lucky

  4. #4
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    Very different feel. Intuitions are much stiffer generally.

    Regardless, does it really matter how they feel now? I'd compare how they feel while actually in use, not to mention at the end of the day.
    not counting days 2016-17

  5. #5
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    I reserve this spot for later... I have to run out the door.

    Well I'm back...

    IMHO, the quality stock liners have increased drastically in just the past 4-5 years. Up to around ten or so years ago, the foam in your ski boot liner differed little from carpet foam scraps.

    I am pleased with the Salomon Falcon liners. They are tough and have a long lifespan. I do wonder how well they expand when used in the wider CS fits. High quality foams have replaced the "ten uses and I'm packed out crap". Also I skied on Garmont Shamans last year, 100+ days, and I thought is was a nice liner. Last year even the new Rossi Sensor 3 boot had a pretty nice liner.

    Unfortunately, Intuitions don't work for some people. The largest group of these is going to be people with thinner, more athletic legs- think runners. Any person who has a soleus/gastrocnemis complex that inserts high on the leg will have more difficult fit issues with Intuitions. These types of people often complain that they are banging around, or post holing in in the upper cuff of the boot. There are ways of tightening the wrap during the mold process so that potential chin bang is reduced or eliminated, but it almost always returns in the aforementioned individuals.

    Also Intuitions are also problematic for individuals who have a more pronounced bony protrusion on the front or anterior of the leg from a pointy tibia. I have a great trick for this as well.

    In short, I almost always recommend that, if possible, skiers try the stock liner before charging into an Intuition liner. True, Intuition liners are warmer than their stock counterparts, but sometimes the pitfalls outweigh the benefits. I am amazed by the number of skiers that will throw away a perfectly nice stock liner without even giving it a chance, yet will tinker with Intuitions all season long.

    It is also easier, again IMHO, to modify a stock liner. Think about cutting/shaving the instep area of a stock liner for a person who is experiencing pressure from a high instep. Removing the tongue and modifying the liner for this pretty straight forward, but with an Intuition, this turns into an ordeal. Right now I'm experimenting with taking the thread out of a liner at the seams, splitting the foam and placing high grade medical gels into the liner to relieve pressure/increase comfort in the fit. Try that with an Intuition liner. Due to the fact that the Ultralon foam is stable enough to be cooked (and often abused) at high temperature, splitting neatly it can be impossible.

    I am a firm believer in the "pack in" process- especially with stock liners in race or very stiff free ride boots. I believe that an excellent fit can be accomplished by merely properly breaking in the boot. In softer lower quality recreational class boots, by the time the liner is packed out (or "in"), it is toast. In higher end boots, I feel the liner is just getting good at the 30-45 day mark. Few skiers give the stock liner enough of a chance to conform to the foot.

    More and more, I am beginning to think that the best way to pack in an Intuition liner is to just ski in it. This will result in the best fit and longest life. Of course not everybody has the luxury or personal fortitude to perform this process.

    So we go back to the cooking...
    Last edited by skiing-in-jackson; 09-21-2009 at 01:49 PM. Reason: new info

  6. #6
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    I have never been able to get intuition liners to work for me. I had some Kryptons with the intuitions and baked them twice and they never felt good, always hurt. I find the intuitions just feel real hard. I guess this shouldn't be weird since I came off custom foam liners a couple years ago. They were hard, but I loved them. I don't know.

    Anyway, i have not been able to find anything (including intuition in them) that has fit better than the stock liners on the high end Falcon boots. I had Falcon Guns for two seasons, and I'm getting some of this year's Falcon CS Pros to replace them. I did try out the Ghost boot last year, which is suppossed to have the same lower last as the Falcon and I need for my super narrow heels, but it just didn't lock my heel down enough, so I think the CS Pro is the closest thing to the 08/09 Gun I'm gonna find.

    I did have a set of Hawx 110 briefly. Really liked that boot and the liner did feel really good. Unfortunately, again, not enough heel lock down when I actually go out on them, so they had to go.
    ROBOTS ARE EATING MY FACE.

  7. #7
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    Other info I didn't mention in the first post, but probably should have:

    - the boots are a good shell fit for my feet -- this isn't a case of "hey, these new boots are really comfy because they're a size too large."

    - the new boots' liners have plastic stitched on the sides & tongue, which obviously affects the flex. My Intuitions are the basic silver ones, which don't have any of the added stiffeners (those patches of firmer material that are on some versions).

    I know I won't really be able to tell anything until I ski them, but I was surprised at how well the Hawx fit my feet straight out of the box.

  8. #8
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    i think a big difference is how the two liners are going to change over time, the intuitions stay more or less how they start out after the bake, where as the stock liners will begin to pack out and change quite soon after you start skiing them, this is why on most stock liners i expect them to be uncomfortable at first because i know that after a half dozen days they will have packed out and molded to my foot (to an extent).

    The only stock liner i have ever really liked was on my nordica 150 plugs. It was a lace up liner that was incredibly high quality, great craftsman ship. but not a liner that was good outside of racing, it was basically a piece of leather between the shell and my foot, but it provided a fantastic fit
    ‎Preserving farness, nearness presences nearness in nearing that farness

  9. #9
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    as others have said, I think it depends on the shell and liner. Intuitions baked for my Kryptons = severe pain leading promptly to numbness (needless to say, stock liners are more comfortable). Exact same intuitions in my garmonts = happy feet.

  10. #10
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    On the point of intuitions fitting weird...I have a really skinny lower leg and intuitions have to wrap so much around that it creates a pinch point because the liner has wrapped around beyond the normal sweet spot. I wanted to get into some full tilts this winter but the intuition problems reminded me of 3 years ago when I had krytons and a twice baked intuition and said pinch point would make my leg numb and spasm.

    Point being: for skiing/athletic lower legged skiers I'd say stick with traditional liners. I opt for the surefoot custom liner (money).
    Ambition is like a frog sitting on a Venus Flytrap. The flytrap can bite and bite, but it won't bother the frog because it only has little tiny plant teeth. But some other stuff could happen and it could be like ambition.

  11. #11
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    I don't like Intuitions. They hold up longer than most stock liners, but they feel hard and I really don't notice them being any warmer than stock liners.

  12. #12
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    I will admit that I'm biased on the orthotic/footbed issue. Ultimately, the success of properly breaking in any boot depends on the ability of the liner to hold your foot in an exact location so the bony landmarks on your foot are in the same place on the liner every time.

    Aside from the support and "oneness" a custom orthotic provides, perhaps the most important reason for an orthotic during the pack in is that it allows your foot to compress the stock liner's foam in the same place each time.

    In an Intuition, this is less of an issue as the liner (which should feel like a hot marshmellow) is supple and immediately conforms to your foot.

    The stock liner requires a lot more work to break in. Getting your foot into the boot in the same spot each time is the tricky part. An orthotic helps this process and gives a one up to the stock liner.

    Intuition vs. High Quality Stock Liner...whatever feel right. But consistent foot placement during the break in process is paramount.

  13. #13
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    I will say i have never used an intituion liner as of yet. but i am also perfectly happy with my liner in my Solomon Impact 10's and my Radiums (G-Fits i think they are). The Impacts i have never baked but they fit and feel just fine though after a full day i usually can't feel my big toes and sometimes they are rather white/very slightly light blue. The radiums i bought used and had to remold the liners since they had been previous heat molded. First thing i noticed is a bump at my arch that feels odd at first but doesn't hurt and i forget about it after 5 minutes (if that). I just attribuite it to feeling odd since it probably is more conformed to my foot than any other shoe or boot i wear normally (i dont feel this in my impacts)

    Im cheap is also part of the problem. My liners work decent to well so why go pay $75+ for something i dont really need. Though i have though of getting a pair for winter travel and ten use the stock in the late spring/summer when they almost always get wet/damp.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by skiing-in-jackson View Post

    Also Intuitions are also problematic for individuals who have a more pronounced bony protrusion on the front or anterior of the leg from a pointy tibia. I have a great trick for this as well.
    I'd like to hear more about this. Are you talking about a bump on the shin area that is often aggravated when skiing?

  15. #15
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    Let me clarify, I've noticed that some skiers, usually males, have a ridge that runs top to bottom along the front of the tibia. Using landmarks in surface anatomy, one can feel or palpate the distal tibia. In some people the bone is more "angular" than in others.

    This results in a difficult Intuition fit or game ending tenderness. The extra piece of plastic on the tongue of most stock liners sometimes provides just the right amount of additional protection.

  16. #16
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    Stock liners over Thermoform liners any day in my book.

    Conformable foam liner is still the very best (when made by someone with real experience).

  17. #17
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    consider yourself lucky

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwolter7 View Post

    Conformable...made by someone with real experience).
    I was wondering when Conformable liners would enter the picture.

    Having never skied them I can't comment on their performance. Also, having never worked in a shop where they were popular, I've only molded a few of them over the years.

    I thought Intuition liners had rendered Conformable liners obsolete.

  19. #19
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    I got some conform'ables the alpins ,they were baked for my alpine boots but I swapped em to my AT boots and they work so I havent remolded

    I did have to build up the tounge with spenco

  20. #20
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    sorry for slight OT: El Chupacabra, how do feel about the atomic hawx. I consider buying them too, but im a bit worried about two things: Somebody said the shaft angel would be extremly upright, can you confirm that? I'm a bit worried that your weight will be more on your heels than on the ball of your foot, where it should be. I never really concerned myself with stuff like that. And the other point i wonder is, if the forefoot flex might make the boot very soft and prevent a proper power transmission, as the boot absorbs the forwarpressure you want to put into the ski.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyclerower View Post
    sorry for slight OT: El Chupacabra, how do feel about the atomic hawx. I consider buying them too, but im a bit worried about two things: Somebody said the shaft angel would be extremly upright, can you confirm that? I'm a bit worried that your weight will be more on your heels than on the ball of your foot, where it should be. I never really concerned myself with stuff like that. And the other point i wonder is, if the forefoot flex might make the boot very soft and prevent a proper power transmission, as the boot absorbs the forwarpressure you want to put into the ski.
    The Hawx forward lean is the same as on the m100, in case you can locate some of those older Atomics to try out. I don't think it's too upright.

    I don't know how the Hawx boot will feel when skiing; I've only tried these on indoors. Some of the reviews I found said that the flex cuts in the shells make the boots have a smooth forward flex, like a Krypton/ Flexon. Hopefully that's true -- it's the one thing I miss about that style boot.

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