Chrysler, wtf?

[Hugh Conway]

aerodynamics better than a moving brick would be one

[Trainwreck]

I wish we would stop socializing their collapse and let capitalism take its course. The UAW needs to learn to build cars for the same hourly rate that everyone else in the country does or go under. The days of getting paid more to do a worse job are over.

As far as dealerships go Chrysler has almost 4 times as many dealerships as Toyota and sells less cars. "Currently, the average Chrysler dealer sells 303 vehicles a year, compared with 1,292 for a Toyota dealership and 1,219 for a Honda showroom." link

[Hugh Conway]

I wish we would stop socializing their collapse and let capitalism take its course. The UAW needs to learn to build cars for the same hourly rate that everyone else in the country does or go under. The days of getting paid more to do a worse job are over.

As far as dealerships go Chrysler has almost 4 times as many dealerships as Toyota and sells less cars. "Currently, the average Chrysler dealer sells 303 vehicles a year, compared with 1,292 for a Toyota dealership and 1,219 for a Honda showroom." link

erm, the UAW gets paid less per hour retard.

But that pairs with Capitalism? The US doesn't believe in capitalism. We believe in cronyism. Compare your local airport to the 3rd world port of choice. We're exactly the same.... at 5-10x the cost.

[Bite Me]

erm, the UAW gets paid less per hour retard.

One of the prerequisites of calling someone else a retard should be that you're not one yourself -or don't let the facts stand in your way - - -

In a November 18, 2008, New York Times editorial, Andrew Ross Sorkin claimed that, counting benefits, each UAW worker receives $74 per hour while Toyota workers receive about $44 per hour.

One of the benefits negotiated by the the United Auto Workers was the jobs bank program, under which laid-off members received 95 percent of their take-home pay and benefits. More than 12,000 UAW members were paid this benefit in 2005. In December 2008, the UAW agreed to suspend the program as a concession to help U.S. automakers during the auto industry crisis.

Retart.

[jmf]

FWIW, I have an 08 Liberty with almost 30K miles on it, and an 08 Ram 2500 with 10K miles that just spent the last winter plowing about 250" of snow off of 5 miles of dirt road.

Lot's of squeaks and rattles and so forth like you'd expect from bouncing around int he mud an snow all the time, but no issues with either of them and they're both being fairly beat to shit every day...

[Core Shot]

As far as dealerships go Chrysler has almost 4 times as many dealerships as Toyota and sells less cars. "Currently, the average Chrysler dealer sells 303 vehicles a year, compared with 1,292 for a Toyota dealership and 1,219 for a Honda showroom." link

True, but that just goes to show selling new cars is not where dealerships make money.
Service is the money maker.
Those chrysler dealers were profitable or else they would have gone bankrupt already (unless they were "company" stores and not privately held dealerships).
i saw an interview with a 56 year Chrysler dealership that was bitching how Chrysler shut his dealership down and gave all th biz to the Chrysler dealersihp a few miles down the road.
Prior to the closing he was profitable. He employed 18 people.
It sucks, but them's the breaks.
Its too bad they didnt let the 2 dealerships bid for the right to buy the other guy out. That way you close one dealer, and the loser gets some cash payout.

My problem is how the secured creditors get 10 cents on the dollar and the less secured UAW got 50 cents on the dollar.
It was a union handout.
Plain and simple.

[P_McPoser]

bThe Jeep Liberty, the ultimate soccer mom machine that is as offroad capable and is similarly sized to a Camry and gets 16mpg.

{Uh? ok?

I'm guessing you've never driven either car then...

[jmf]

{Uh? ok?

I'm guessing you've never driven either car then...

Would guess the same... I can personally attest to the stock Liberty being pretty much unstoppable under normal off road/shitty weather conditions. I put Blizzak W965's on it and it handled more than a foot of snow in moderate off road situations without any problem.

[powder11]

Having just gone throught the process of buying a new truck and going to Ford, Chevy and Dodge lots, I'm kind of glad some of these mental defectives are going out of business. Live by the sword, die by the sword.

[belgian]

One of the prerequisites of calling someone else a retard should be that you're not one yourself -or don't let the facts stand in your way - - -

In a November 18, 2008, New York Times editorial, Andrew Ross Sorkin claimed that, counting benefits, each UAW worker receives $74 per hour while Toyota workers receive about $44 per hour.

One of the benefits negotiated by the the United Auto Workers was the jobs bank program, under which laid-off members received 95 percent of their take-home pay and benefits. More than 12,000 UAW members were paid this benefit in 2005. In December 2008, the UAW agreed to suspend the program as a concession to help U.S. automakers during the auto industry crisis.

Retart.

They get paid $74 and $44 PER HOUR to put fucking windshield wipers on new cars?!!??!?!?!!!! Are you fucking joking? I had NO idea how ridiculous the UAW was. Thats more than the Boeing unskilled laborers, and they get paid WAY WAY WAY too much. Good lord...

[Arty50]

No, it's not. That vehicle should not have four doors. Never. Ever. Not in a million, trillion years. Those two extra doors make it a fucking travesty.

This thing is pretty rad though:

[skimasterflex]

The UAW didn't pick Robert Nardelli, BOB FUCKING NARDELLI, as CEO. Cerberus deserves the pineapple for the dumbest fucking management decision in Automotive history.

Thank God! All of these idiots trying to blame the workers for corporate decision making is mind-boggling! It's like half of the people who post in the Padded Room actually watch Fox News and believe what they hear or something!

When the workers had a level of input in the decision making process and the UAW was strong, 50 years ago, good things almost always came of it. But as UAW leadership allowed boards to buy them, as union leaders grew powerful, they relinquished worker access and interaction to the means of production and left themselves and their workers to implement the shitty top down decisions.

That doesn't make any of those shitty decisions based on free market idiotology the fault of the men and women building cars in this country, or really the fault of people trying to act politically in their Union today!

If it weren't for Unions there wouldn't be any of the freedoms or workplace rights that we have left today, and even those are almost gone, because unions have become so weak.

All of the rhetoric of union hating neoliberalism has come to bear in the form of a horrible recession! Just admit you were horribly wrong about the entire Selfish Actor Model, and realize that humans are capable of caring about one another and help rebuild a society based on that truth.

[Trainwreck]

erm, the UAW gets paid less per hour retard.

But that pairs with Capitalism? The US doesn't believe in capitalism. We believe in cronyism. Compare your local airport to the 3rd world port of choice. We're exactly the same.... at 5-10x the cost.

One of the prerequisites of calling someone else a retard should be that you're not one yourself -or don't let the facts stand in your way - - -

In a November 18, 2008, New York Times editorial, Andrew Ross Sorkin claimed that, counting benefits, each UAW worker receives $74 per hour while Toyota workers receive about $44 per hour.

One of the benefits negotiated by the the United Auto Workers was the jobs bank program, under which laid-off members received 95 percent of their take-home pay and benefits. More than 12,000 UAW members were paid this benefit in 2005. In December 2008, the UAW agreed to suspend the program as a concession to help U.S. automakers during the auto industry crisis.

Retart.

Yeah it's roughly double, and it's not foreign workers building more reliable cars for half the labor cost, it's Americans. The Toyota workers mentioned above are building cars here.

Consumer Reports reliability ratings for 2009.

[warthog]

No, it's not. That vehicle should not have four doors. Never. Ever. Not in a million, trillion years. Those two extra doors make it a fucking travesty.

No, the big black ugly ass fenders on the Rubicon make it a travesty, and make the Sahara Edition the only way to go with the new Jeeps. Not only do I dig the 4 door(only in that Green though), but I REALLY dig the increased tow capacity the wider wheelbase gets you. I understand where you are coming from, but this thing has really grown on me. I see the same one every day. It is up on (whatever the metric 33" tire is) with 18" rims. 3-4 inch Skyjacker lift. Pimp hardtop with removable sections, and lots of racks and toys. It really has changed my mind. But, it is the Sahara Edition, so the fenders match the body.

Sorta like this one with a black top-


Some of the aftermarket fenders look good too.


I wouldn't mind this option:

[cdlv]

bad ass

[Spats]

What is their about Chrysler worth saving?

The UAW, which made major contributions to Obama's campaign

I've said since the original bailouts came up last year that:
1) The bailouts won't work
2) We will lose all the money we put into them

If we continue to tax success in order to reward failure, we will continue to get more and more failure.

[Bite Me]

When the workers had a level of input in the decision making process and the UAW was strong, 50 years ago, good things almost always came of it. But as UAW leadership allowed boards to buy them, as union leaders grew powerful, they relinquished worker access and interaction to the means of production and left themselves and their workers to implement the shitty top down decisions.

If it weren't for Unions there wouldn't be any of the freedoms or workplace rights that we have left today, and even those are almost gone, because unions have become so weak.

All of the rhetoric of union hating neoliberalism has come to bear in the form of a horrible recession! Just admit you were horribly wrong about the entire Selfish Actor Model, and realize that humans are capable of caring about one another and help rebuild a society based on that truth.

Sounds like you're WAY overdue for more of those reality meds.

Like unions have produced ANYTHING useful apart from protecting the unproductive. No doubt the only thing worse than a union is a management that makes them necessary, but these guys have outlived their usefullness more than a few decades ago.

Reread that part about the "jobs bank prgram, or find out about the work rules that made any attempt to moderize or streamline production hopeless.

Unions

[Benny Profane]

Unless you're a surfer who is always looking for the perfect spot, that thing is an insult to anybody with two legs and a backpack. 10-1, the target market is at least 30 pounds overweight.

[Benny Profane]

When the workers had a level of input in the decision making process and the UAW was strong, 50 years ago, good things almost always came of it.

Have you actually studied the labor movement in America, or were you just, I guess, riffing? Trust me, in 1959, the management of the big three didn't end a production meeting by saying "Great, OK, I think we have some good points here. Let's first run it by the shop steward." Most guys on the floor were happy to have such a great job, and the cars were flying out the back dock, so everyone was happy. The first time management even bothered to pretend to take ideas from below was when the industry started crumbling in the 70's, and some of the uppers heard around the 15th hole that the Japanese had a much more democratic production model, and labor consultants told them on the 17th hole that the worker would be a little more happy if SOMEONE listened to them, and gave them a little different job every other week to break the ungodley soul stripping monotony. So, they faked it.

To me, the saddest and most pessimistic chapter of the American car industry is the demise of Saturn. That was born out of a model based a lot on the Japanese system, but just died on the vine, killed by the sick bureaucracy of Detroit. Now there's just a bunch of vultures picking at the bones of the dealer network. Sad.



edit: "the UAW was strong, 50 years ago".

By that, are you saying the UAW isn't "strong", today? They will be full partners in whatever the NYSE recognizes as Chrysler and GM in a year. This is weak? Talk to a United union member about that after their companies declared bankruptcy. Jezuz, the main reason just ten years ago to declare bankruptcy was to trash the union obligations. These guys got the private jet!

[Blurred]

the target market is at least 30 pounds overweight.

Gonna get 3 of them?

[Hugh Conway]

or don't let the facts stand in your way

hey pot, how's it going? Seriously, you quote a fucking New York Times editorial? Are you fucking Benny Profrane?

[Stu Gotz]

No firesale is going to happen, Chrysler is going to reimburse the dealers for their stock on hand come the 9th. All remaining stock will be redistributed to the remaining dealers

Are you sure about that? There are a whole lot of first hand accounts that Chrysler is shutting the dealers abruptly, leaving them stranded with inventory but no right to perform warranty work on the unsold cars.

[liv2ski]

Sorry, but if that's the model for entrepreneurship in America, we're in trouble. That franchise system has been blocking true innovation in auto retailing for generations using political influence, more than anything, on the local level. How many times have you heard in the past few days, "oh, boo hoo, we've been here since 1920 something or other, my grandfather started the biz. boo hoo.", and it's basically been run the same way since then, while the rest of retailing has morphed into the WalMart and BestBuy model, with the ease of internet shopping right along it's right side. It just became so calcified and tired that the car companies were just dumping millions of cars their way, or else, just to get the volume numbers up, and easy credit lubed the machinery of sales. It really made no sense, especially when some guys were only selling 100 cars a year. And, Toyota certainly taught them a lesson with 1200 dealers doing more sales than the bloated GM network, but they wouldn't change until they looked at chapter 11 in the face. But, don't worry, millions and millions of your tax dollars will be thrown at this dying beast over the next 3 or 4 years at least, just to keep some people voting right.

I'm waiting for the true auto retailing entrepreneur to rise from the ashes of this mess to sell me a car like I want to be sold. I want to shop for the car on the internet or a central store like an Apple store, where i can test drive and really get under the hood of this thing, and not have a "salesman" standing there, but a technician, who knows that car in and out and won't bullshit me for a second. Or, I have it brought to my house for the test drive. If I like, I order on the internet at a set price, and it's delivered to me within a week at my convenience. The company, of course, has well located service centers to have the car maintained, and, if they're close enough, they come and pick up the car and drop off a loaner. There will also be a lot of pre owned cars at the service center that also will be listed on the internet and sold the same way. Maybe that guy who runs ZipCar has some ideas, or the guy who runs NetFlix, or, God Bless Him, Steve Jobs gets healthy and can fix the mess if he wants to. I'd actually like to see him start a car company, but that's doubtful. We certainly don't want those 55 year old white guys from Detroit who play way too much golf in charge anymore. Or, shudder, the UAW.

Benny, my last 5-6 cars were bought off the internet. Regardless of the dealership setup, you can buy cars pretty much along the lines as your blog. It is called buy a used car. Do your home work on what you want. Go to the internet to find. Have seller bring by your house for a test drive. Take to your mechanic for inspection. Get it serviced pretty much anywhere, as your not trapped into the stealership due to a warranty issue.
My last car was bought new from a dealer. I knew exactly what I wanted and what I was willing to pay. Found it on the internet 600 miles from home and emailed them an offer. Went back and forth a few times, not budging from my original offer, flew in 4 days later with a cashiers check to pick it up. Salesman told me it was the easiest sale he had ever done. Take it upon yourself to change the game that is being played.
Belgain, I would gladly pay a few grand more for the 35 blow jobs from Jessica Alba

[dumpy]

I'm waiting for the true auto retailing entrepreneur to rise from the ashes of this mess to sell me a car like I want to be sold. I want to shop for the car on the internet or a central store like an Apple store, where i can test drive and really get under the hood of this thing, and not have a "salesman" standing there, but a technician, who knows that car in and out and won't bullshit me for a second. Or, I have it brought to my house for the test drive. If I like, I order on the internet at a set price, and it's delivered to me within a week at my convenience. The company, of course, has well located service centers to have the car maintained, and, if they're close enough, they come and pick up the car and drop off a loaner.

All of this is already happening (or has already happened), albeit at various dealerships.

Saturn did the "technician, not salesman" deal when they were first on the up and up. I remember going into a dealership and seeing a chopped up SL1 to demonstrate things like chain drive. It was almost like a museum exhibit. As you said in a previous post, that was a very smart company before they became just another GM company. Damn shame, they lost my interest when they went to steel body panels.

As far as the high level of service, many small town local dealerships do this. My GF bought a lightly used 08 Imprezza from our local Subie dealer. Comes with free oil changes for IIRC 3 years. She drops it off in the morning, takes a loaner car for the day and comes back after work to pick it up. 100% included in the price of the car. This was also one of the few dealerships that did not send some one along on the test drive. We went for maybe an hour, middle of winter, took it out and tested it on some sketchy back roads. The sales person did also explain how a boxer engine and Subaru's tranny works.
All of their cars, used and new, are on their website with prices. Quality, small dealership.

As far as online ordering, I believe several manufacturers already offer this. You spec out the car on their site, give them your location and they ship it. I'm pretty sure it takes quite a while for delivery and you get MSRP or nothing, but it's a step in the right direction.

I know of another "huge" dealership that offered to let my parents take a Hyundai they were looking at home overnight to test it out. A Jeep dealership owned by the same person delivered a vehicle for a test drive to a former co-worker of mine. Their Jeep dealership was over an hour away.

What I would find far more interesting is if the franchise model was dropped and car dealerships were more like bike or ski shops. The dealerships had more say in what models they carry, even across brands. Do it just like retail, the dealership buys the vehicle before it hits their lot. You could walk into a dealership and compare say a subcompact from 3-4 different manufacturers side by side. Dealerships would be more motivated to stock better cars that would be more likely to sell. This more competitive approach would drive vehicle quality up across the board. Service would most likely take a hit though.

[El Chupacabra]

Unless you're a surfer who is always looking for the perfect spot, that thing is an insult to anybody with two legs and a backpack. 10-1, the target market is at least 30 pounds overweight.

Ever been out west Benny?

Pretty hard to backpack in 50 or 100 miles on 4x4 road with no water sources anywhere. You'll need a motor.