Intuition liners

[LeeLau]

Article is here http://www.wildsnow.com/1570/intuition-ski-boot-liner/

There wasn't enough room in the article for a FAQ. This FAQ will be on the Intuition website but is reproduced below for your reading pleasure.

FAQ

LINERS

1. What type of liner should I get?

Your height and weight, skier type, whether you prefer comfort or performance are all factors. Ask your dealer or email Intuition.

Answer the following three questions then send Intuition an e-mail and they will help you determine the correct size liners for your boots.
• What shoe size do you wear?
• What boot shell size will the liners be used in?
• What make and model boot do you have?

2. What size liners to get? Same size as boots? Larger size or smaller?

This depends on your feet. Liner size trades-off performance vs comfort. Liner size depends on whether your boots are too small, too large or just right. Eg people with boots that are too big might want bigger liners as there is more foam which can expand and more room can be taken up. Our standard sizing method is to fit people into the same size liners as boots.

3. Should I get Alpine liners or the Powerwraps for my AT boots? What about for my alpine boots?

For AT boots the answer depends on the person their skiing style and whether they trade-off touring vs downhill performance. Alpine liners are softer, Powerwraps are stiffer.

Most people in alpine boots want the Powerwrap liners if faced with that choice.

4. Should I get Alpine liners or the Powerwraps for my tele boots?

See comment above. Lots of telemarkers use the product.

Some telemarkers with smaller, lower cut boots use the lower cut liners eg the Universal or even the Denali liner.

5. Does Intuition recommend using footbeds with the liners?

Summary answer: - Footbeds aren't necessary except when you have orthotic footbeds but its your personal preference and very much dependent on your foot.

Note that Intuition's standard liner has between 12mm to 9mm of high density foam on the foot area which is more then enough support. Some liners (eg the Scarpa Speed Liner or the Krypton liner) has even less foam because the users almost always want to use footbeds. Intuition recognizes this so thins out the foot area to leave room for the footbed.

6. Does Intuition make different thickness of liner? (for boots too small, just right and the far too common "my boots are too big")

Intuition does make different volume densities of liners. For example one relatively new liner is called a Plug Liner. It has slightly different foam densities (generally a thinner 9mm foam density) so it will fit in boots where the skier has a very small boot (for a race-fit) and wants to maintain that tight fit yet does not have a lot of room in the boot for a thicker liner. For boots that are too big, Intuition would recommend a bigger liner so there would be more foam to thermally expand and take up the relatively larger space in the too-big boot.

7. Does Intuition make different flexes or densities of liners?

That's in the current line up. Eg the Powerwrap liner has fairly rigid AEPE foam around the cuff of the liner to give the liner more stiffness. The Alpine liner doesn't have AEPE foam and being made out of standard Intuition high-density foam is a bit softer. In another example, the Luxury tongue liner has a stiffer foam tongue then the Freeride tongue liner and so, the Luxury liner is a bit stiffer.

8. Can Intuition clarify the difference between the Plug and Alpine Powerwrap liners?

The Plug Liner has slightly different foam densities (generally a thinner 9mm foam density) so it will fit in boots where the skier has a very small boot (for a race-fit) and wants to maintain that tight fit yet does not have a lot of room in the boot for a thicker liner.

9. What is the best way to get the stink out without breaking down the properties of the liner?

Intuition recommends using anti-bacterial soap and water. Soaking the liner in a water and bleach solution and air-drying also works.

10. Is there anything that can be done to make the liners more breathable/reduce sweating while touring? Are any of the liners more breathable than the others?

All liners are the same closed cell Intuition Ultralon foam with different variations of densities. The Scarpa liner has some open cell in some areas of the liners. They are considering using open cell in some future liners but the downside is that it gets cold. Considering that the liner is in an impermeable plastic shell it's tough to make a liner very breathable.

Another more drastic option to try is to perforate the liner or customize in some way

11. I am ideally looking for the ultimate in heel hold but also want it to be comfortable/perhaps shock absorbing on the tongue and will also want to use my footbeds. Would the powerwrap/plug liner be the way to go or have they made some advances in the alpine style to match the performance/quality?

Closest equivalent is Luxury liner. Answer depends on the particular alpine style tongue as they are different even among the performance alpine racing boots

12. Is my impression correct that the tongue on the Luxury model will more evenly distribute shin pressure while skiing and add to the tongue flex of the boot?

That's correct. The tongue will aid in distributing pressure when skinning

13. What would the difference be both skiing and touring/skinning between the Luxury and Alpine models?

The Alpine and all overlap models of liners may be a tad more restrictive when skinning.

14. Is the Freeride model the same liner as the Luxury with a softer flexing tongue?

Yes

15. Any plans to do a boa-style liner, like the new BD boots?

No. Intuition's initial take was that there was too much to go wrong

16. Any plans to do a liner with a rubber/tough sole for walking around camp in the liners?

Some models have the Silicon Sole ie rubberized grip sole. Intuition may expand that feature along the line


MOLDING THE LINERS

17. How many times can the liners get cooked?

Up to five times IF THE LINER IS COOKED CORRECTLY and sometimes more

Also note that not all liners need to be custom-molded by being cooked. In particular, the tongue liners are designed to fit right out of the box.

18. I notice Intuition uses a new type of blower to cook the liners WHILE they are in the boot. This is in contrast to the convection oven formerly used to cook the liners. Why do they do this?

It's easier to fit feet correctly in the blower-style heater. That heater does not deform the liner (cooking in the oven flattens the liner and then reinserting the liner in the boot usually deforms the liner). There is also more expansion of the foam since the liner isn't flattened as in the oven.

See Scarpa's video of the blower style heater at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLzUQQGBJus

19. Is there an "official recipe" for cooking liners in a home oven that is not a convection oven? Times, temps, etc.?

There is no official recipe. Here's something you could try unofficially but don't come after me if you wreck your liners

• Preheat the oven to 300 – 400 F
• Place aluminium foil under the liner so it doesn't get burnt
• Switch off the oven and put the liner in the oven
• Leave for 10 mins (wrap) 8 mins (plug)
• The tricky part is getting the liner into the boot without creasing it. This can be a two person job.
• A useful primer on this with some tips and a video is at http://www.telemarktips.com/DrTelemark.html (Cooking with Big Tim)

20. I'd like to make a DIY blower/heater. Answers are in bold

• What temp is the hot air as it leaves the nozzle? 250 F
• What is the air speed of the hot air? Do not know
• What temp should the interior of the boot be to mold? Boot interior isn't heated so whatever the temp is after it conducts heat from the liner
• Any high temp limit, below the fire-point of the material, at which the foam breaks down? Don't know

THE FOAM

21. What are Ultralon's EVA foam properties?
• Foam density
• Foam thermal conductivity
• Foam coefficient of thermal and moisture expansion at 98F
• How do these properties change over the life of the product?
• Over the life after multiple bakings?

There are data sheets from Ultralon http://www.ultralon.co.nz/ - and Intuition is requesting copies and will post them.

22. Does Ultralon licence their foam to other people for liners?

Ultralon makes a special formulation of the foam for Intuition. The formulation is owned by Intuition and Ultralon does not make it available to any other liner manufacturer. The Intuition specific foam is called HERBALON or INTUITION HIGH-DENSITY or INTUITION ULTRALON foam.

23. Are there other applications of the Intuition foam?

Intuition has licensed it to medical device companies - eg for orthopaedics. Intuition has also used it in other sporting applications eg. slalom waterski and wakeboard boot liners

24. How are the liners made?

Ultralon foam is made in New Zealand to a specific unique formula for Intuition. The foam is QA'ed in Canada, sewn and made/molded into basic liners in China. Prototype liners are made in Canada

25. How much is just the raw foam when its not in a liner?

Price of the foam depends on quantity ordered. Pricing quotes can be obtained from Ultralon directly.

[snoboy]

Great stuff.

I bought Luxury liners, and wondered what the difference was with the Freeride model. Know I know!

[Meathelmet]

So the same manufacturer (ultralon?) provides materiel at least for comformable,raichle,intuition,scarpa,sidas and palau?

Just because ordered these palaus liners and was wondering if the same cooking tips still aply..




Just a tip for the euromags that are searching for liners : seems to be decent priced.Let´s see how they work in few days..



edit: and thanks lee for providing good write up!

[LeeLau]

Damn it meathelmet. I thought I'd finally written something where all questions were answered.

No. Palau/Garmont liners are not Intuition liners. Old Palau liners were dogshit - there I said it. Jury still out on the newer liners. I don't have much experience with cooking them

\Intuition does manufacture for Raichle, Scarpa and many others

[tsproul]

I thought I'd finally written something where all questions were answered.

I got some alpine liners from Intuition. I'm working with them now to get appropriate liners. Here are my issues, which I think could have been moot if dimensions were easily found.

I have 285 bsl boots (mondo 24). I got size 6 alpine liners, based on their recommendation. Their liners are 5 mm shorter than the stock Nordy liners. This means toe crunch but I don't know if baking will relieve the toe crunch. The alpine liners are also 2 cm taller than the stock Nordy liners. Nothing like too much liner sticking out the boot to make a gaper feel like a jong.

Anyways....if they could post some heights (heel to cuff) and lengths (toe to heel) of say short (24), medium (27) and large (30)sizes in each of their models, it would be good so we could match appropriate sized liners to boots when more than one product fits the needs. My Nordica boots have a longer last than what Intuition uses for alpine liners and a shorter cuff. The width seems like it will work (unbaked liners are tight). Just throwing out my penny worth of crap...

[Fritz]

Schweet. Thanks!

[the vor]

heck of a write-up lee. Answered all my questions and good history. Thanks.

[volklpowdermaniac]

seriously good write up. Especially because I just seriously messed up my toes skiing in 0-10 degree weather. Any more damage says the doc, and I'll be in some serious trouble, intuitions here I come.

[snoboy]

Don't forget teh TGR dealio - TGR15 code at checkout for the discount...

[Brewski2]

Don't forget teh TGR dealio - TGR15 code at checkout for the discount...

Reeeeeealy? How much of a discount are we talkin here? I've been eyeballing these for awhile now and might just pull the proverbial trigger if the price was right.

Edit: found it. 15% Thats pretty sweet, actually equates to free shipping. Hmmmmm..... luxury liners might be in my future.

[volklpowdermaniac]

Besides the added stiffness in this particular transition, can you tell noticeably when shifting from a tongue liner (only kind of liner I've ever had) to a wrap liner, or overlap (or whatever the proper term). I would presume not, but perhaps?

This may make a difference in choosing between power wraps and luxury liners.

[LeeLau]

The Powerwrap is quite a bit stiffer then all other liners IMO. The Alpine wrap liner, the Luxury and the Freeride tongued liners all felt the same to me

[squirrelmurphy]

I've been using the Plug liners that I have molded to 26.5 Salomon Course boots in my 27.0 Factors. Even though the liners are thinner than the Powerwraps, and are almost a cm shorter than the stock BD BOA liners, they ski much much much better. Noticeably stiffer overall.

[srsosbso]

Squirrel, do you happen to remember what the actual size was on the liners you're using? (they sell them in US whole sizes, yes?) I'm wondering what size to get for my 25.5 factors.

[Chainsaw_Willie]

...snip...
I have 285 bsl boots (mondo 24). I got size 6 alpine liners, based on their recommendation. Their liners are 5 mm shorter than the stock Nordy liners. This means toe crunch but I don't know if baking will relieve the toe crunch. ...

Given my recent experience, I'd say that it's highly unlikely that baking will relieve the toe crunch.

I have size 26 Dynafit boots which they say is the equivalent to a US size 8. I normally wear a size 9.5-10 street shoe so I thought it odd that boots that small worked best for me, but they were the right length for a performance fit (about one finger width, or close to 1/2" clearance behind my heel with toes just touching front of boot shell.)

Since the boots were size 8 the shop I was working with ordered Power Wraps in size 8 as well. I tried them on before baking and they were too short but I figured the baking/fitting process would fix it. Nope. Still too short after baking, painfully so in fact even though I had double-layer toe caps on.

I've managed to make the fit acceptable by taking a hair dryer to the toe area of the boot and stretching it as much as I possibly can by hand, but it's still not optimal and the outer fabric of the liner is stretched as far as it will go. If I had it to do over again, Id've insisted on at least size 9 liners as these boots are equivalent in length to a 9 or 10 street shoe.

It's the old problem of different manufacturer's sizings fitting different. Merrell shoes & boots fit perfect at a size 10. Nikes fit me best at a 9.5. I recently bought a pair of Vasque hiking boots that fit best at size 9. And now these Dynafit boots at size 8. Best to not worry so much about the designated number and concentrate more on what actually fits, I'm thinking.

[wilcox510]

I posted this on the group buy thread but this is probably a better place...So it looks like this years Powerwraps have a different style power wrap material, stitched on instead of glued on this year. They also seem significantly softer than last years, because of the different material. Anyone used both that can comment on any difference in stiffness?

[bossass]

Got some Luxury liners direct from Intuition last week. They included the "home fit kit", which consists of nylon socks and toe caps and instructions. I figured I would be putting them in oven, BUT NO! Their instruction have me filling up one nylon sock with uncooked rice. Yes, I said rice. Anyone heard of this? Anyway, you nuke the rice/sock so it's f-ing hot and drop it in the liner, which I believe stays in the boot. It sits for a few minutes and then you jam your foot with the other sock and toe cap in. Obviously you do one boot at a time.

Haven't done this yet, still might just take them to a shop with heat stacks and do them there. Makes sense though. I used to have this thing, which was more or less a sock with some sort of grain in it, you'd nuke in the mic and then use it on a sore back or neck. It got REAL hot, and always smelled kinda yeasty. Thinking about it, it could've easily been rice filled.

I'm not gonna type out the whole set of instructions. If you want to know, email intuition, I'm sure they'll set you up.

[Beder]

Got some Luxury liners direct from Intuition last week. They included the "home fit kit", which consists of nylon socks and toe caps and instructions. I figured I would be putting them in oven, BUT NO! Their instruction have me filling up one nylon sock with uncooked rice. Yes, I said rice. Anyone heard of this? Anyway, you nuke the rice/sock so it's f-ing hot and drop it in the liner, which I believe stays in the boot. It sits for a few minutes and then you jam your foot with the other sock and toe cap in. Obviously you do one boot at a time.

Whoa--I wanna know more about this! Just the new lux liner, or new Powr Wrap too?

[powbmps]

Those are the instructions that come with the powerwrap as well. The rice sock is the recommended home method. Shop fitting is still ideal (at least that's what I was told when I called).

I would think the sock would not heat the outside of the liner enough to get it to form to the inside of the boot shell.

[robnow]

Was at Intuition this last week getting some Luxury liners. They had a few new styles that they are trying out including:
- luxury liner with a thin, flat, non-foam bottom so footbeds can be used (medium density liners only)
- luxury liner with snowboard style lace-ups, you know with the pull handle on the chord and a cinch mechanism
- luxury liner with thinner material above the ankle for more fore/aft flex when in walk mode to be tested in touring boots

For me I think a low volume luxury liner with flat bottom for footbed use would have been the best solution (they only do it in medium volume so far) but had to resolve to using stock medium volume luxury liner without my footbeds. I'm not sold on the idea of the liner alone providing enough support underfoot. I've only used the liner one day and honestly had to take them off after every run because they we're too tight. They felt squishy under one heel and just did not feel that great/fitted around the upper. And we heated and fitted liners twice in their office.

[CLOUDKICKER]

I got some alpine liners from Intuition. I'm working with them now to get appropriate liners. Here are my issues, which I think could have been moot if dimensions were easily found.

I have 285 bsl boots (mondo 24). I got size 6 alpine liners, based on their recommendation. Their liners are 5 mm shorter than the stock Nordy liners. This means toe crunch but I don't know if baking will relieve the toe crunch. The alpine liners are also 2 cm taller than the stock Nordy liners. Nothing like too much liner sticking out the boot to make a gaper feel like a jong.

Anyways....if they could post some heights (heel to cuff) and lengths (toe to heel) of say short (24), medium (27) and large (30)sizes in each of their models, it would be good so we could match appropriate sized liners to boots when more than one product fits the needs. My Nordica boots have a longer last than what Intuition uses for alpine liners and a shorter cuff. The width seems like it will work (unbaked liners are tight). Just throwing out my penny worth of crap...

whats up all, I am new to the forum, but have been molding Intuitions at Colorado Freeride/A Racers Edge for the last four years and have got almost a hundred Intuition molds under my belt at the shop (which I have recently taken over as manager for Kris Karlsted). Anyway, as for your sizing issue, I have always found that the correct size liner comes shorter than the stock liner(especially one that is packed out), and it will mold to the right size as long as you use an appropriate toe cap. As for the mentioned "guidelines" #5 I would recommend a custom footbed to anyone who actually skis, even if they have an Intuition. The liner will pack out and so will the arch that is molded with it. #17 I 've molded a pair of my liners five times before and they definitely lost moldability and warmth after the third mold. (I just wouldn't count on five molds). #18 Using the stacker definitely works well for a liner that is already molded to the inside of the boot (i.e. Dalbello), or a remold to the same boot, otherwise I recommend using the full bake method so that you are molding the liner to your foot and the inside of the boot. #19 and home baking, just bring it to someone who has experience. There is no sense in paying all that money for the liner and not having the mold come out right. thats my first post, hope it was helpful. shout out to CMSUMMIT and COLDSMOKE!

[Jersey Skier]

Got some Luxury liners direct from Intuition last week. They included the "home fit kit", which consists of nylon socks and toe caps and instructions. I figured I would be putting them in oven, BUT NO! Their instruction have me filling up one nylon sock with uncooked rice. Yes, I said rice. Anyone heard of this? Anyway, you nuke the rice/sock so it's f-ing hot and drop it in the liner, which I believe stays in the boot. It sits for a few minutes and then you jam your foot with the other sock and toe cap in. Obviously you do one boot at a time.

Haven't done this yet, still might just take them to a shop with heat stacks and do them there. Makes sense though. I used to have this thing, which was more or less a sock with some sort of grain in it, you'd nuke in the mic and then use it on a sore back or neck. It got REAL hot, and always smelled kinda yeasty. Thinking about it, it could've easily been rice filled.

I'm not gonna type out the whole set of instructions. If you want to know, email intuition, I'm sure they'll set you up.

So has anybody tried this method? I just recieved my Luxury liners yesterday.

[Meathelmet]

No. Palau/Garmont liners are not Intuition liners. Old Palau liners were dogshit - there I said it. Jury still out on the newer liners. I don't have much experience with cooking them

\Intuition does manufacture for Raichle, Scarpa and many others

So,few days under the belt with palaus.

Not too bad.

Doesnt feel as hard as intuitions that I have tried. More like the the old raichles thermos. Very good shinpad on it,I like.Now I dont have to use a external that I have had to.
When cooking the liners in a oven,they turned out to be soft. Like bloody porridge and it took two persons to put them into the boot. They kept oozing around like liquid..
What they lack is the supportive bottom (the footbed part) that the raichles had. Never had to use any footbeds in them but now with the palaus i needed to install my old comformables. With them the boot (factor) seems to be money now.
Cant say how they ski big sticks or skin yet,but I should be a bit wiser in few days.

But as the palaus cost 85€ with shipping and the intuitions cost around 120€ around theese parts,they could make a good deal.Hopefully they will last as well.

[flip]

Bumping this, as I want to hear more impressions of the Luxury or Freeride liner from folks who have also skied the Powerwrap or Alpine and are using the new tongued liners in AT boots.

Do they add stiffness like the power-wraps?
Do they fit as well and take up as much negative space as power-wraps?
Do they tour as well or better since they have a separate tongue?

[LeeLau]

Hey Flip - answers in line in BOLD.

Remember the main difference is that tongued liners are supposed to help with people who can't thermofit or want a liner that works well out of the box. I have really standard foot so am lucky and am not prone to needing lots of bootwork

Bumping this, as I want to hear more impressions of the Luxury or Freeride liner from folks who have also skied the Powerwrap or Alpine and are using the new tongued liners in AT boots.

USING LUXURY IN THE SCARPA SPIRIT 3

Do they add stiffness like the power-wraps?

DON'T KNOW AS THEY'RE REPLACING SCARPA INTUITION LINERS

Do they fit as well and take up as much negative space as power-wraps?

YES

Do they tour as well or better since they have a separate tongue?

HONESTLY CAN'T TELL.