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  1. #26
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
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    Girdwenver
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    146
    Bump for any guinnea pigs who actually tried the 'chinese take-out' method.

  2. #27
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    4,587

    My Feet Suck

    Here is a quote from my original request for an Intuition suggestion.

    I've got some size 27 Megarides that I've been skiing for most of a year with the flexon tongue mod. I trashed the stock liner and used a thermoflex liner from a pair of Flexons. After careful molding, padding, shimming, and some footbed work from a quality AT fitter I managed to get something that holds my narrow, low volume foot in there pretty well and doesn't give me blisters. Early season I had some pain from the left edge of my bony left heel banging up against the shell but I did a bit more padding and I think my feet toughened a bit. Now later in the season I'm getting the pain again. I checked that spot on the liner and it's packed down to maybe 1-2mm thick. Ouch. My liner have all esorts of foam shimming and padding that I've done and are a duct-tapey mess. I don't have to max out my buckles or anything by my foot is starting to feel a bit crushed at the instep at max buckling. Oi!

    Would you recommend an intuition for this sort of problem? My issue usually seems to be liners not taking up enough volume. (The Megaride was the lowest volume shell I could find that was long enough. I still bang a toe occasionally.) Is sizing up a liner to take up more volume really a good idea? For touring and the very occasional lift-served day I imagine that the Alpine style is the way to go. I don't really want to stiffen my boots, but the Powerwrap does look a bit thicker.
    I went with the Alpine style sized +1 for extra volume reduction.

    They are a definite improvement but don't seem to necessarily solve all the the problems I hoped that they would. They took up a TON of volume (no C-pads needed, for sure) but in the right boot they took up too much volume. Upon further inspection it looks like it ended up a little smooshed and wrinkled around the heel area which didn't leave enough room there. Even with the instep buckle at its loosest setting I was a bit crushed. I pulled up on the liner like mad on insertion but I guess it wasn't enough. I was using a Scarpa oven and I've molded several liners before but there always seems to be a bit of chance involved.

    My heels are bruised so badly that they just hurt, period. I fear this might not go away until the summer and I might be developing scar tissue/spurs or something. Something about the shape of my boots, my super skinny, bony heels, the forces of skinning and the wear and tear of skiing ~40 days on these boot over the course of ~2 months on all sorts of conditions including some not-so-soft snow just put insane pressure on that small area. The Intuitions have better thickness and resilience but the very pressure that packed out the last liner makes the material relatively thin there during molding. Like, my heel is a little ball and the heel "cup" of the boot is a slightly curved wall. Oops. Overall, the liners provide an insane amount of foot hold. I'm now buckling 1-2 notches less all around and I need the remold on the right foot just to get enough room! (And yes, this boot shell is fit correctly and was the lowest volume/best fit of all the AT boots I tried last year.) When my alpine boot (Flexon) liners finally wear out I will be getting intuitions - no questions asked.

    Testing involved a few very short bc laps of low angle powder. Pleasant, but hurting feet can really degrade an otherwise wonderful day.

    I'm not sure what the best solution is to my boot problems now. My feet suck.

  3. #28
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    1
    Which liner style would be better for a guy that has monster calves? I haven't found a dealer yet that stocks both overlap & tongue types to try on, but would I be right in thinking that the new tongue models might work better for me? Can you cut the top of the liner to reduce it's height if necessary?

  4. #29
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Posts
    38
    This thread was a big help... just ordered the power wraps and snoboy's code still works at checkout!

  5. #30
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Vancouver/Whistler
    Posts
    223
    The Chinese take-out method works great...
    What do you mean why do I have duct tape on my skis!?! It improves edge hold, increases pop, adds durability, and most importantly, boosts horsepower by like 30%... what? your skis don't have horsepower?

  6. #31
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    2,606
    Sorry to bump, just out of curiosity, right out of the closest after the summer break does anyone refit their intuitions every season, or just throw em on and roll.
    Do I detect a lot of anger flowing around this place? Kind of like a pubescent volatility, some angst, a lot of I'm-sixteen-and-angry-at-my-father syndrome?

    fuck that noise.

    gmen.

  7. #32
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Somewhere else
    Posts
    3,420
    I've re-charged mine at the beginning of the season, and mid-season, and to be honest it never really seems to make much of a difference. The don't get quite as snug as after the initial molding. I have about 100 days on mine now and I'm wondering if I need to replace them.
    Goal: ski in the 2018/19 season

  8. #33
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Whistler
    Posts
    1,019
    Anyone else find the durability of the material inside rather poor? After a season I have some big areas inside the liners (around my heel especially) that have worn through to the foam.

  9. #34
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    North Vancouver/Whistler
    Posts
    10,776
    Jim, do you have bony spurs or a sixth toe. I used mine well over 100 days a year and havent had a problem and thats with sixth toe, fungal feet and toenails that look like they've been mugged by a lawnmower.

  10. #35
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Whistler
    Posts
    1,019
    A little yeah, and my boots are very tight. As long as the foam doesn't disintegrate I suppose it doesn't matter

  11. #36
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Somewhere else
    Posts
    3,420
    The durability of my liners seems good enough, but they have packed out a little and it's beyond the help of a re-bake. But I don't have any huge wear issues.
    Goal: ski in the 2018/19 season

  12. #37
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
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    561
    I've got a couple of questions about the Intuitions that came with my Scarpa Typhoons that I hope the collective can help with ...

    How do you tell which ones they are? I can tell they're not the wraps, duh, but is there a way to tell if they're plug, comfort, luxury, etc. I assume they are the Plug version, but I don't know.

    The Typhoons are nowhere near as close fitting as the plug boots and/or race boots I've grown up with, and I'll need/want to take up a lot of the boxy space inside with 'foam'.

    Seems that there isn't enough foam in the liner to take up the space required (around the ankle is the issue). Does the Intuition foam 'expand' as it's heated to take up room, or will it simply just flow to the low spots where it's squeezed to?

    If it just flows then it doesn't seem like it'll be enough to take up the volume around the ankle.

    Input appreciated.

    Gracias.
    Last edited by YoEddy; 08-21-2009 at 03:59 PM.
    Who cares how the crow flies

  13. #38
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    North Vancouver/Whistler
    Posts
    10,776
    Picture would be helpful

  14. #39
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
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    location location location
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    561
    Quote Originally Posted by LeeLau View Post
    Picture would be helpful
    Yeah, I should have included one. Anyway - done (added to original post).

    Thanks for any insight you can offer.
    Who cares how the crow flies

  15. #40
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    North Vancouver/Whistler
    Posts
    10,776
    It's a tongued liner (duh) but impossible to tell if its a Plug or Luxury liner. The foam will expand but it'll expand only so much. I can't tell if it'll take up enough space for you - I think you might need a bootfitter

  16. #41
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    2,689
    I'm considering replacing my liners but the TGR "deal" essentially covers the cost of shipping and that's it. Are there any legitimate deals anymore, or is the MSRP it?
    "It need not be fun to be fun." - Big Steve

    throughpolarizedeyes.com

  17. #42
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
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    561
    Thanks 100-Oaks.

    Your input confirms my concerns that the Intuitions aren't going to take up the room around the ankles that I need them to. The Intuitions seem to be a step between full foam and standard "flow" fit liners.

    I've been in foam boots for ~20 years now, and there's no going back to C pads, etc ... I'll probably have my local shop set me up with some foam Conformables, and sell the intuitions.

    Quote Originally Posted by 1000-oaks View Post
    ... My issue is not enough length, even after molding with dual toecaps. (I read about the slop around the ankles and may have bought one shell size too small.) I need to call Intuition to find out if I can squash the foam in the toe by putting a form inside the liner and then heating the toe with a heat gun and clamping it to flatten out the vertical toe wall.

    If I can't flatten out the foam that way, maybe I'll shave it down - seems like I should be able to get at least 5mm off the toe. (I'm not worried about warmth, I run hot.)
    Grinding/shaving down just the liner isn't going to buy as much as you think it will, and it's a good way to end up with frost bite - no shit, ask me how I know ...

    If length is the issue then you'll need to address the shell - not the liner. Any shop worth their salt should be able to bump out the shell at the toe(s) exactly where you need it with a hydraulic punch.

    Actually, I buy all of my boots small enough that they need to be punched out at the big toe. That's right ... if it doesn't need to be punched out then it's just too damn big
    Who cares how the crow flies

  18. #43
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Simi Valley, CA
    Posts
    4,750
    Quote Originally Posted by YoEddy View Post
    If length is the issue then you'll need to address the shell - not the liner. Any shop worth their salt should be able to bump out the shell at the toe(s) exactly where you need it with a hydraulic punch.
    Actually I already tried that, and the despite really seeming to know his stuff the bootfitter just distorted the shell without creating any more room at the toe.

    The open-top, lightweight thin-sole design of the Typhoon shell means the hydraulic jack simply bows the sole downward instead of pushing out the toe.

    Or, maybe the bootfitter didn't use enough heat on the toe, I don't know. Maybe he didn't have much experience with Pebax...

  19. #44
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Simi Valley, CA
    Posts
    4,750
    Here's the Typhoon punch thread: [ame="https://www.tetongravity.com/forums/showthread.php?t=155751"]Warning: Scarpa AT boots & toe punch issues - Teton Gravity Research Forums[/ame]

  20. #45
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
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    Yeah, I remember that thread ...

    I've punched out many boots, but to your point never a Pebax shell (at least I don't think so ... ) so I can't say there will be a difference, but if I had to guess I'd say there shouldn't be any.

    Someone else in that thread mentioned isolating the heat, which is key to NOT warping the sole or the rest of the shell. It's also very important to get the area you're going to punch VERY hot, which then requires much less pressure to punch and subsequently puts less force into warping the rest of the boot. But, there's a fine line between the right really hot temp, and melting the plastic (done that ... not too big of a deal unless aesthetics are really important).

    With your length issue - is it one toe that is the problem, or all of them? I ask because the majority of punches I've done are for the big toe, or perhaps the second toe that is longer on some folks, but always a specific toe so that the punch head is actually the size & shape of a large cherry to just smaller than a golf ball. The area you heat is correspondingly 'small' and isolated (as stated in that thread with heat tape, or flashing, wet towels, etc).

    What form punch did your boot fitter use? Was it a ball shaped form, or the larger oblong, or even forefoot shaped? The larger the form the larger the area that has to be super-heated, which again is harder to control warping.

    Anyway - the fact they left the punch in for 2 days still has me thinking they weren't all that experienced (or Pebax is some funky shit with massive memory characteristics).

    So all of that said I'd still recommend to NOT shave the liner. Even if you run hot as you've said your skin is that much closer to the plastic that is surrounded by snow. The last time I got frost bite it was 27 with 2' of fresh. I never got cold, and stayed out all day to enjoy the freshies. By the time I got to the parking lot and took off my sock my whole big toe was black ...

    Don't do it!!
    Who cares how the crow flies

  21. #46
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Simi Valley, CA
    Posts
    4,750
    I think he used a ram about the shape of a whole forefoot, it was pretty big. My issues are probably just the big and second toes, the second toe being the longest and actually "double-jointed" from being squished backwards my whole life.

    Spooky stuff about the frostbite.

  22. #47
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    Feb 2005
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1000-oaks View Post
    ... the second toe being the longest ...
    Aha, a "Greek" foot. Egyptian foot is where the big toe is the longest ...

    If I were you I'd try to have them punched again - the right way. Put your bare foot in the shell and snug your toes up to the front, and with a ball-peen hammer or similar tap to find the exact spot where your toe is in the shell - mark them directly with a cross hair on the outside of the shell with a marker.

    Then have the boot fitter punch out with a small form just where the marks are. Chances are the extra room made for the longest toe will result in just enough room for the big toe too.
    Who cares how the crow flies

  23. #48
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Carbondale
    Posts
    705
    Quote Originally Posted by folkstr View Post
    Which liner style would be better for a guy that has monster calves? I haven't found a dealer yet that stocks both overlap & tongue types to try on, but would I be right in thinking that the new tongue models might work better for me? Can you cut the top of the liner to reduce it's height if necessary?

    Folkster,
    I've got a pair of Luxury Liners in low volume. Probably the best you can do for big calves. They're 28s and didn't work for me. Just a few days use. $75.

  24. #49
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    2,606
    Out of curiosity...which Scarpa liner comes in Tornados/Hurricanes....obviously Typhoons have tongues, as answered above....do either Tornado (the white pros) or Hurricane....2008 and up, come with wrap liners....or if I want wrap style i'm going to have to get some on my own...makes a big difference as to whether i'll buy a brand new pair of scarpas or used. If I have to change out the new liners to a wrap liner anyway, I'm going used and saving some coin.
    Do I detect a lot of anger flowing around this place? Kind of like a pubescent volatility, some angst, a lot of I'm-sixteen-and-angry-at-my-father syndrome?

    fuck that noise.

    gmen.

  25. #50
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    location location location
    Posts
    561
    Kudos to Intuition. They are da bomb.

    I asked if I could swap out my stock Typhoon liners with something that would take up more volume, and they sent me some Luxury liners without a question ... all I had to do was return the stock liners that I have.

    Awesome customer support in an era of questionable customer loyalty.
    Who cares how the crow flies

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