Definition of Mountaineering for Life Insurance purposes.

**smoothious** · 01-23-2009, 05:20 PM

Can anyone help me out with how life insurance companies define mountaineering? I have a policy with New York Life and have been looking at adding more coverage since the family is now bigger. One of the questions on the application is if I participate in mountaineering. I asked the agent if she had a written definition, but have been given nothing other than the agent’s verbal opinion. I have a problem with the fact that how I answer the question affects the rate, but the company can not provide me a written definition of what it is. I have told the agent that I hike for my turns, but am afraid that if I do not check yes in the mountaineering category they could deny the claim if there is an accident.

For the record I do not feel that I have ever participated in Mountaineering. Hiking in the mountains looking for smooth powder, yes…. Mountaineering, no.

**f2f** · 01-23-2009, 05:27 PM

"precariously perched on a 10mm rope hanging from a weak anchor some 500m above the ground"

**Art Shirk** · 01-23-2009, 05:32 PM

I'm pretty sure you ski without taking a lift...not mountaineering.

Just don't die with your crampons on

**LeeLau** · 01-23-2009, 05:55 PM

smoothious. I have life and disability with mountaineering as an exclusion. I got both my agent and broker to agree that mountaineering only involved activities where I am roped up. Any activities where I am unroped is therefore insured. I then sent an email with text along the lines of "Further to the phone conversation we had, I am just confirming that mountaineering activities are not insured... and that mountaineering only involves activities where I am on a rope for the sake of safety."

You can paraphrase if you like. My policy and the insurer's policy had no specific definition of mountaineering.

I got my broker to review a ski trip where I skied off a few summits and they agreed it was insured. I emailed them a representative trip report and also got them to confirm that the ski touring was insured.

I know this all sounds anal but i come from the perspective that insurance companies will welch on payment if at all possible so wanted to thoroughly cover this off.

None of this is any use if your policy defines mountaineering. This tactic only worked because my policy didn't define mountaineering.

**Garrett** · 01-23-2009, 05:57 PM

So LeeLau now just freeclimbs everything like a burly madman?

**LeeLau** · 01-23-2009, 06:00 PM

Well actually my partners have clear instructions to cut the rope if I die, if possible. Rather macabre

**smoothious** · 01-23-2009, 06:00 PM

Originally Posted by commonlaw

I'm pretty sure you ski without taking a lift...not mountaineering.

Just don't die with your crampons on

Ski without taking a lift. What a great way to put it. I will use that term when I have further discussions.

I do have crampons, and have used them occasionaly. Is that the line in the sand?
How about the use of a rope?
Never rappeled into, or climbed anything, but have tied off to a tree when jumping on a cornice before. How would the InsCo look at that.

**smoothious** · 01-23-2009, 06:07 PM

Thank you LL that will be very helpful. I too come from the perspective that insurance companies will welch on payment.
My policy does not currently say anything about mountaineering.
The questions have only been presented since I have started to look at a bit more coverage.

**Art Shirk** · 01-23-2009, 06:19 PM

Originally Posted by smoothious

I do have crampons, and have used them occasionaly. Is that the line in the sand?

Nah, I was only half-kidding. I was just thinking of some of the gear that is common to backcountry skiing and mountaineering and the blurred line if you died with any of it on. Take LeeLau's advice and see if they will put a box around the term and get it in writing. Remember, it is the people who you leave behind that would have to deal with this stuff and it is hard enough without nit-picking with an insurance company over just exactly how your husband tragically died.

**Cliff Huckable** · 01-23-2009, 06:54 PM

Originally Posted by smoothious

I asked the agent if she had a written definition, but have been given nothing other than the agent’s verbal opinion.

Ridiculous. That's so crap.

**prestonf** · 01-23-2009, 08:17 PM

Mountaineering: Walking up the back side of shit.

**SkinDeep** · 01-23-2009, 08:40 PM

I have a friend who worked as a lawyer for an insurance company. He told me that their policy was to pay the policy but deduct the amount that would have been charged had the activity been disclosed. Sounds like an incentive to lie if you ask me- you only have to pay if you happen to die doing the risky thing you claimed that you do not do.

I asked another person who worked in insurance about this and he said "we don't pay shit unless we absolutely have to." So it may differ depending on the company. Also this was some years back when there was quite a bit more money floating around- my guess is insurance companies might be taking a narrower view of coverage given the current economic conditions.

**BFD** · 01-23-2009, 11:16 PM

good thread I better check my policy. The way things are going I was thinking life insurance is my only sure investment. Would hate to give them an out.

**Kai** · 01-23-2009, 11:50 PM

What you need to do, is attach a written rider to the policy that describes your skiing activities. Have this rider signed by an authorized representative of the underwriter (probably not the agent, as he is likely not authorized to bind the underwriter) and keep a copy. When drafting the rider, don't be deceptive. Describe your activities in detail.

That way, you will know that you are covered. Without this, you may not be.

Depending on the state that the policy is issued in, you may have a time limit on contestability. That means that if you pay the premiums for a certain amount of time, the policy becomes uncontestable by the insurance company as a matter of law. I believe that for New York, this limit is 5 years. Other states have similar laws.

**cramer** · 01-23-2009, 11:52 PM

I dont see how they could say anything besides you were "hiking" for turns. If you've got an axe, ropes, etc on you, well, thats another story. If they cant give a clear and defined definition, its not going to stand up in court anyways. I mean, you could die on a mountain camping and they could try and screw you.

**snoboy** · 01-24-2009, 01:00 AM

If it's fun while you're doing it, you should be in the clear. If it's only fun later in the bar, then you may be in some questionable territory. If it is only fun after many retellings and lots of Scotch, then you will not be insured.

**srsosbso** · 01-24-2009, 01:12 AM

I like snoboy's definitions a lot.

I ran into the same issue years ago. They wanted to hike my premiums through the wazoo because I as a "climber." Turns out their actuaries were lumping me 'statistics wise" into the same group as guys on K2, and other seriously high altitude mountaineering. I got into some decent alpine style stuff down the road, but at the time I was mostly cragging, and statistically the most dangerous part of that was quite literally driving to the crag.

The company actually had a look at things more closely based on my case and ended up subdividing climbing genres to some degree.

**bluejet59** · 10-14-2009, 09:58 AM

Don't ask Don't tell.

Steve House is a Mountaineer - the rest of us are mere punters.

Hide your axe and whippets

**PNWbrit** · 10-14-2009, 10:22 AM

Definition of mountaineering:

"Walking up hill very slowly, feeling unwell"

**sruffian** · 02-26-2020, 10:45 AM

Bumping from the grave

I am recently married and attempting to pursue reckless activities in a more responsible manner. Went through rigamarole for life and disability insurance (medical exams, etc), and when I finally got the contracts there were added riders to exclude mountaineering and rock climbing. I'm fine with excluding rock climbing, but want to be sure BC skiing is covered or atleast where the line is drawn

This is about 75% of why I want disability and life insurance (slightly less of why my wife wants me to have them). They also dramatically reduced the payout period on the disability plan (aka significantly raised the rate based on my activities).

Does anyone have a life or disability policy that does NOT explicitly exclude mountaineering? If so, with which company?

Lee - any updates 10 yrs later? Hopefully haven't had to try to cash in...

**RootSkier** · 02-26-2020, 11:49 AM

Wow, super bump.

Insurance policies are purposely vague so they can fuck you over. Undefined terms will be construed as a matter of state law, so it depends what your state's highest court thinks mountaineering (and any other undefined term) is.

**AdironRider** · 02-26-2020, 11:57 AM

On the plus side, his blood pressure is pretty solid, and he's at a decent weight... he's a sexy guy, right?

**Conundrum** · 02-26-2020, 12:08 PM

An underwriter once described mountaineering is having a rope attached to you in the mountains. They wouldn't put it in writing.

**Kinnikinnick** · 02-26-2020, 12:51 PM

IMO after toiled with the same issue, if you are into ski mountaineering vs ski touring then you might be taking a chance.

“Specialized equipment for climbing” was one thing they mentioned. Shit I use a whippet and crampons for spring and summer descents - ?? That sure is specialized stuff for snow climbing.

Way past the contest-ability period so i guess im good???

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