Definition of Mountaineering for Life Insurance purposes.

[sruffian]

That all makes sense. So get it clarified or get fucked once I'm dead. Grand.

Anyone have a policy or underwriter they'd recommend? Pissed that the UW dramatically cut my benefit for DI when they found out I 'mountaineer'

[irul&ublo]

Can anyone help me out with how life insurance companies define mountaineering? I have a policy with New York Life and have been looking at adding more coverage since the family is now bigger. One of the questions on the application is if I participate in mountaineering. I asked the agent if she had a written definition, but have been given nothing other than the agent’s verbal opinion. I have a problem with the fact that how I answer the question affects the rate, but the company can not provide me a written definition of what it is. I have told the agent that I hike for my turns, but am afraid that if I do not check yes in the mountaineering category they could deny the claim if there is an accident.

For the record I do not feel that I have ever participated in Mountaineering. Hiking in the mountains looking for smooth powder, yes…. Mountaineering, no.

Question...is this an NY Life agent or an independent agent/broker?

[old goat]

If you get killed doing it, it was mountaineering.

(I'm no expert but RootSkier's explanation makes sense.)

[bodywhomper]

Per friend who’s father was an agent:
Hiking in the mountains/desert/rivers, go to the beach, backpacking, cross country skiing/snowshoeing, etc. those are the types of terms to use and boxes to check. And don’t die doing the things that you actually do and don’t insta your actual lifestyle all the time. That’s the hedge.

[old goat]

Per friend who’s father was an agent:
Hiking in the mountains/desert/rivers, go to the beach, backpacking, cross country skiing/snowshoeing, etc. those are the types of terms to use and boxes to check. And don’t die doing the things that you actually do and don’t insta your actual lifestyle all the time. That’s the hedge.

If you don't die why do you need insurance. The point of the insurance is to cover you if you die or are injured doing the things you actually do.

[Kinnikinnick]

Yeah

Say what?


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[GeezerSteve]

An underwriter once described mountaineering is having a rope attached to you in the mountains.

Sure, walking across a heavily crevassed glacier unroped to access a free solo multi-pitch 5th class alpine route is not mountaineering. Duh

[bodywhomper]

If you don't die why do you need insurance. The point of the insurance is to cover you if you die or are injured doing the things you actually do.

For the rest of your shit. Like pedestrian hit and run, car accidents, random item falling from a high rise, etc.

My takeaway, if you or dependents can make a claim from you fucking up doing a high risk activity and argue/support that it was one-off activity, then go for it.

if y’all can afford life insurance and fully disclose your typical (daily) action sports lifestyle, power to ya...

Personally, I’d love to know of a policy that I can afford where I can frankly describe the climbing, frequent solo mtbr rides, bc skiing jaunts, ski-mountaineering, cliff jumping, etc.

[Kenny Satch]

Anyone getting closer to a mountain is mountaineering.

[PNWbrit]

https://americanalpineclub.org/insurance

Try here

[Meadow Skipper]

Attachment 317587

lol

[Sirshredalot]

I recently went through a screener interview for life insurance with Amica. They got into the details: what is the grade of the most difficult rock pitch I've ever climbed? Ice? Mixed? What is the highest peak I've ever climbed? What sort of equipment do I take with me to the mountains? Have I ever free soloed class 5 terrain?

My answers made me feel like a grade-A poseur, but maybe I'll get insured.

[neufox47]

Wow, super bump.

Insurance policies are purposely vague so they can fuck you over. Undefined terms will be construed as a matter of state law, so it depends what your state's highest court thinks mountaineering (and any other undefined term) is.

My area is property insurance, and I’m no legal eagle, but undefined terms are construed against the insurance company in my experience. The insurance company is the one who is writing the policy and has the ability to define terms. Also, if they unreasonably construe a term to deny coverage they may be found guilty of bad faith and owe treble damages.

I have a policy that defines mountaineering and rock climbing as any activity when you are harnessed to a rope. I don’t remember the exact wording but it was pretty clear that rope = exclusion.

[old goat]

I recently went through a screener interview for life insurance with Amica. They got into the details: what is the grade of the most difficult rock pitch I've ever climbed? Ice? Mixed? What is the highest peak I've ever climbed? What sort of equipment do I take with me to the mountains? Have I ever free soloed class 5 terrain?

My answers made me feel like a grade-A poseur, but maybe I'll get insured.

you have to quit the death sports for five years, or so they told my son.

Does the insurance pay if you die doing what you love, or is that considered compensation enough?

[XXX-er]

what if you are roped up skiing on a glacier ?

[Conundrum]

After reading to this point, I’ve determined the two guys who actually work in the insurance industry are saying the same thing.

If you have life insurance and die with a rope attached to you, have your buddies untie you and drag you to the nearest trail. Probably want to tell them this at the start of the trip.

Bequeath them something in the will to say thanks from your beneficiaries.

[kootenayskier]

I’ve used policies that excluded mountaineering requiring the use of ropes or guides, and figured that free soloing was therefore covered. More recent experience as me realizing that in the case of a claim, it would be argued that such activity would customarily “require” ropes or guides, and would be challenged. Insurance companies use language to minimize their liabilities, so read the fine print accordingly.

[GeezerSteve]

The insurance company is the one who is writing the policy and has the ability to define terms.

That's pretty much the law in WA, which follows the common law rule that ambiguous terms are construed against the contract's drafter. I would think that's the law in most, maybe all, states.

Also, if they unreasonably construe a term to deny coverage they may be found guilty of bad faith and owe treble damages.

This varies from state to state. In WA (last time I checked), insurance bad faith claim is common law, so you gotta allege a claim under WA's consumer protection act to claim treble damages, which are capped at $25K. (The insurance industry historically has had the WA state legislature by the balls.) In some cases, if a carrier denies coverage, it must return the premium, lest it will be required to pay a successful claimaint's attorney fees.

[RootSkier]

That's pretty much the law in WA, which follows the common law rule that ambiguous terms are construed against the contract's drafter. I would think that's the law in most, maybe all, states.

This varies from state to state. In WA (last time I checked), insurance bad faith claim is common law, so you gotta allege a claim under WA's consumer protection act

I mean, I am not licensed in WA and I never will be but it took me 10 seconds to figure out that WA has adopted the model unfair trade practices act that applies specifically to insurers. https://apps.leg.wa.gov/wac/default....ite=284-30-330. I don't care enough to look at the remedies. Under Montana's version, there is no provision for treble damages but you can get attorney fees and punitive damages.

edit: OK I spent 30 more seconds and it may be that WA's version doesn't have a private right of action and is instead directed at insurance commissioner enforcement actions. NOT LEGAL ADVICE.