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  1. #276
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    Here's the loophole discussion on the beach.

    Charlie, here comes the deuce. And when you speak of me, speak well.

  2. #277
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    After getting stabbed Jacob says theyre coming, im pretty sure hes referring to the O6 and not Ilana and co.

    Im thinking when they set off the bomb its going to flash them to the present, which is why Richard says he saw them all die. He knows the bomb went off, people disappear and he thinks they got vaporized from the blast.

    anyone else think richard was on the black rock?

    re: peter, pretty sure youre right.

  3. #278
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    Life of a repo man is always intense.

  4. #279
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    Do the Jacob visits correspond to the "list" Ben talked about back in season 3 or so? I'm betting they do. Still unsure of the significance, though.

    Definitely agree that the Esau character is Smokey, and it explains why Locke wasn't present when Ben was confronted by Smokey in the tunnels.

  5. #280
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    Quote Originally Posted by peterslovo View Post
    Yes - and which ones did he actually touch? Significance?
    Locke (shoulder), Kate (face), don't remember about Sawyer or the others.

    He gave Sawyer a pen to keep writing his letter, Kate the lunchbox, Jack the candybar, Hurley the case, and Locke the 'faith' to believe in himself? Did he save Sayid from getting hit?
    He might have saved Sayid, but he also made sure Sayid didn't get a chance to save whats her face, which gave him the tragedy and motivation to kill people for Ben (Ben told him he was killing the people that killed her), which gave him the hatred of Ben required to shoot him as a child. At least I think so, that was the same woman he let go free in the prison in Iraq right? I was kind of confused by that, because if it was a random hit and run (or at least looked that way to Sayid) why would he believe Ben when Ben told him he knew where to find the killer?

    Quote Originally Posted by brraaap802 View Post
    I think AD's nailed it too. Makes sense, and we have to remember that when the first few seasons were on, the writers had no idea they'd make it to a fifth and sixth season so had to figure it out on the fly.
    Nope, the writers have said multiple times that they have had the whole thing planned out from the beginning. Fail.



    I also find it very interesting how Jacob made no effort to defend himself. Ben was in a very emotional easily manipulated state, but Jacob made no effort to convince him not to kill him. It almost seemed like he either knew he had to die, or that by letting Ben kill him, he wasn't really going to die, just like Essau took the form of Locke, I think we'll see Jacob again.


    I still think there is a distinct possibility that Jack, and everyone else at the swan when the bomb went off are just dead, and that bomb was the even that eventually triggered the crashing of flight 815. If not, everything that happened in that episode would have just been wasted time, and a wasted episode, since Locke would have never gotten to the island and Essau would never have been able to kill Jacob.

    I think when Jacob visited everyone to make sure they got to the island, he knew he was setting in stone the course of events that would eventually lead to Ben killing him. Again, this, and the fact that he didn't defend himself says to me he either knew it had to happen, or he has his own loophole in mind, triggered by his death.
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  6. #281
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    Titus Welliver (Esau) was great in Dead Wood.
    The trumpet scatters its awful sound Over the graves of all lands Summoning all before the throne

    Death and mankind shall be stunned When Nature arises To give account before the Judge

  7. #282
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    Maybe the island is somehow an experiment in good/evil in humanity? Jacob seems to be recruiting people whom he thinks demonstrate good and can live on the island. His lists choose the people who he thinks can be part of the "hostiles" who are the people who fit his criteria for being qualified to live on the island. If they make a mistake (Ben, Whidmore, etc.) they have to leave. Esau doesn't believe it's possible for people to be good and thinks Jacob is wasting his time. Maybe Esau wants to kill Jacob, because he doesn't like him bringing people to the island. I'm curious the history of the tunnels/statue. Maybe Esau and Jacob are the last of an ancient civilization who built that stuff around the properties of the island.

    I don't like the idea of the smoke monster being able to take human form. That just sounds too lame to me.
    Ride Fast, Live slow.

    We're mountain people. This is what we do, this is how we live. -D.C.

  8. #283
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    I didn't watch the whole show last night, but was the "man" people are calling Esau ever directly called that? Or are people just guessing that it is Esau.

    Lost doesn't really have anything to do with the story of Jacob and Esau.
    Charlie, here comes the deuce. And when you speak of me, speak well.

  9. #284
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stu Gotz View Post
    I didn't watch the whole show last night, but was the "man" people are calling Esau ever directly called that? Or are people just guessing that it is Esau.

    Lost doesn't really have anything to do with the story of Jacob and Esau.
    That man didn't have a name, but people have been referring to him as Esau given the name of Jacob as his adversary. Hell, we could probably call him Lucifer, or Evil, or anything else that's similar. Clearly, his black shirt contrasts with Jacob's white one in highlighting the Good vs. Evil confilct.


    So you have Bible people on one side, and Egyptian mythology on the other ....


    The guy in black at the beginning was the Egyptian God of Evil, Apep.
    Jacob is the Egpytian God, Set (or Seth).
    Richard Alpert is Ra.
    Horace was Horus.
    The statue was Taweret.
    Smokie (cerebus) is a Djinn.

    Set overthrew Apep. Apep (black shirt dude) thinks people are bad and should all be wiped out. Set (Jacob) thinks people can be redeemed and should be spared. This whole thing was a test between the Gods to determine the fate of humanity. And I think they failed.

    Set never was in the cabin. He was always in the shadow of the statue. Apep was trapped in the cabin. The Egyptian God Ash protected Set from Apep. Apep couldn't leave the Ash ring, trapping him in the cabin. When the line was broken, he was freed to cause chaos. He tricked Ben into thinking he was Jacob and didn't let him see him to anger Ben enough to kill the real Jacob. Locke's dead, the zombie Locke is actually Apep (or maybe Smokie). As God of Evil, Apep controls Cerebus, not Jacob. Ben was in fact getting two opposing sets of orders. One from Jacob (via Ra) and one from Apep, via Smokie. So, he was in fact actually a patsy just like Locke.

    Also, Set ruled part of Egypt, while Horus ruled the other half. Horus thought Set was evil and they had a war. Sound familiar? (Upper and Lower Kingdoms). While Locke and Ben were patsies for Apep, Set (Jacob) countered by making Jack his patsy. He anticipated Apep's move and used Jack to "undo" it.


    The bomb did change things. They cut an important scene in which Daniel compared time to a river. A small pebble thrown into it would not change the course of the river and it would correct itself. But a large boulder could make a big splash and alter the river. The bomb was to make a big splash. They should have left this in. The bomb changed things.
    Last edited by NPG; 05-14-2009 at 02:47 PM.

  10. #285
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    NPG, how'd you know they cut a scene?

    BTW, awesome summary - helps me with some things for sure.
    "A local is just a dirtbag who can't get his shit together enough to travel."

    - Owl Chapman

  11. #286
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    Deleted scene was mentioned in the podcast - I didn't watch it, but read about it somewhere. And the Egyptian stuff is something I pulled from another website.

  12. #287
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    Now that you mention that scene with Daniel, I totally agree - they should not have cut it.
    "A local is just a dirtbag who can't get his shit together enough to travel."

    - Owl Chapman

  13. #288
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    That doesn't really follow Egyptian mythology though.

    Ra is tops. (Why would Richard Alpert be the handmaiden if he is top dog?) Apep is his opposite. Personification of evil.

    One level down - Set and Horus are ying/yang, with Set being creature of night.
    Last edited by Stu Gotz; 05-14-2009 at 02:50 PM.
    Charlie, here comes the deuce. And when you speak of me, speak well.

  14. #289
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    ^^ Sounds like a good loose interpretation of the themes though - nothing wrong with that. And, maybe NPG's source doesn't have it all nailed down quite yet.
    Ride Fast, Live slow.

    We're mountain people. This is what we do, this is how we live. -D.C.

  15. #290
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    The source is here:
    http://theoriesonlost.blogspot.com/2...gy-set-vs.html


    One person suggest that Richard Alpert is more similar to Anubis than he is to Ra because Anubis was basically a protector or "advisor" to dead souls. He guided and protected them upon their next journey to the afterworld. And it was Anubis (I believe) who took direct orders from Set who we can agree is Jacob. Remember all souls that were passed on to Anubis did not remain dead, but rather, they were given opportunities to redeem themselves and be judged.

  16. #291
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    Certainly.

    But in NPG's example, they are mixing and matching pairs of Egyptian gods. I think the writers are very smart and have more respect for whatever base material they are using to stray to far from the source material (however abstract that material may be).


    I am confused and enjoying the ride and hoping the writers can wrap this up in a tight and fun conclusion.
    Last edited by Stu Gotz; 05-14-2009 at 03:22 PM.
    Charlie, here comes the deuce. And when you speak of me, speak well.

  17. #292
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    I think Bram, Ilana, and the rest of the Ajira people are with Jacob. Obviously we know there's a connection with Jacob and Ilana that we see in a flashback, but Locke says, "we're gonna need to deal with the rest of the passengers" in an ominous way. I also think Bram and company really are the good guys.

  18. #293
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    For all its Pynchon-like layers and complexity Lost is not afraid to go with the obvious (i.e. Miles being Chang’s son, which I suggested last year…). In the season finale Frank and Miles tossed out two big pieces of TV Land foreshadowing—Frank’s skepticism of people who claim they are the good guys and Miles’ snarky questioning of the bomb. I think the bomb is the “incident” and by detonating it they’re setting everything in motion, again. Also, I agree with Frank. I don’t think we’re going to get a black and white, good vs. evil parable.

    Also, was the season finale the first time Jack has killed? If so, it seems that Jack has been corrupted.
    The trumpet scatters its awful sound Over the graves of all lands Summoning all before the throne

    Death and mankind shall be stunned When Nature arises To give account before the Judge

  19. #294
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greydon Clark View Post
    Also, was the season finale the first time Jack has killed? If so, it seems that Jack has been corrupted.
    Jack killed the Marshal in Season 1 after Sawyer didn't get the job done. But this would be the first time with direct attempt and not a way to relieve someone of pain.
    Last edited by NPG; 05-15-2009 at 01:08 PM.

  20. #295
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    Jack believes everything will be reset, nobody will be dead. Thus he didn't really kill anyone. The guys he shot just suffered a "temporary condition".

    Or maybe not....................

  21. #296
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    Quote Originally Posted by NPG View Post
    The source is here:
    http://theoriesonlost.blogspot.com/2...gy-set-vs.html


    One person suggest that Richard Alpert is more similar to Anubis than he is to Ra because Anubis was basically a protector or "advisor" to dead souls. He guided and protected them upon their next journey to the afterworld. And it was Anubis (I believe) who took direct orders from Set who we can agree is Jacob. Remember all souls that were passed on to Anubis did not remain dead, but rather, they were given opportunities to redeem themselves and be judged.

    The giant statue is Anubis, at least as best as I can tell. I doubt Alpert was the inspiration for the statue, although he could be. Jacob living in the base of the statue, and weaving that tapestry, which he said took him a long time, which he remarked was the point, seems like an act of devotion to a higher being.



    So who think sthat Bram and CO are "others"? On the one hand Richard knew the answer to thier question, but on the other hand, they seem to know things about the island and Jacob that none of the others know, like how Locke wasn't really Locke, while all the others were following him blindly.
    Last edited by leroy jenkins; 05-15-2009 at 05:43 PM.
    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ________________
    "We don't need predator control, we need whiner control. Anyone who complains that "the gummint oughta do sumpin" about the wolves and coyotes should be darted, caged, and released in a more suitable habitat for them, like the middle of Manhattan." - Spats

    "I'm constantly doing things I can't do. Thats how I get to do them." - Pablo Picasso

  22. #297
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    Quote Originally Posted by leroy jenkins View Post
    they seem to know things about the island and Jacob that none of the others know, like how Locke wasn't really Locke, while all the others were following him blindly.
    This is easy to explain. They saw Locke walking around after the crash then they saw his corpse in the metal box. It was pretty obvious then that there are two Lockes.

  23. #298
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    Quote Originally Posted by The AD View Post
    This is easy to explain. They saw Locke walking around after the crash then they saw his corpse in the metal box. It was pretty obvious then that there are two Lockes.
    Somehow, I get the sense they knew about it before they found Locke. Otherwise, why would they have known to take Locke's body, and head to the statue, where they knew the other Locke would be inside with Ben and Jacob.

    They definitely know whats going on, at least better than most everyone else.
    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ________________
    "We don't need predator control, we need whiner control. Anyone who complains that "the gummint oughta do sumpin" about the wolves and coyotes should be darted, caged, and released in a more suitable habitat for them, like the middle of Manhattan." - Spats

    "I'm constantly doing things I can't do. Thats how I get to do them." - Pablo Picasso

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