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  1. #1
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    ON3P Reviews: Wrenegade, Billy Goat, Great Scott

    My stats:

    Age: 25
    Height: 5'10" (or close enough)
    Weight: 175lbs
    Boots: Salomon Pro Model (95 flex)
    Style: I like to ski fast, charge, Super G turns, that sort of thing
    Current skis: 191 Wrenegade, 191 Great Scott, 190 Explosive, 179 Pistols
    Other skis I like: 194 Legend Pro, 189 Seth, 185 ARG, 183 Faction 3.Zero
    Other skis I do not like: 191 Goliath, 188 JP vs Julien

    191 Wrenegade (x-stiff)

    Stats: 141/113/128, 30.5m turning radius at 191cm (194cm) Tip rocker is 1.5cm over 15cm.
    Mount: -10 w/916 zz labs

    I have skied these close to 14 days in pretty much every condition from 2ft+ of blower at Baker, to windblown stuff, to crud, to groomers, to ice.

    Finally, after 2 years, I was putting on snow what Scott and I had envisioned as the perfect Whistler/PNW everyday ski. A little tip rocker, full twin, nice and stiff, killing everything. The flex on these is around a Legend Pro, but most out there are a little softer (I have been told).

    Frankly, I was in love after the first run. From the top of one chair, down to another on a soft packed groomer. Flat at the top, I was surprised at how lively it was at slow speed and how easy it was to ski. Pointed them straight and as soon as it got a little steeper, I laid it over into a turn. Wow. These things can CARVE. Do a couple of those then just straightlined to the bottom with a high speed left hander over some bumps. No problem whatsoever. Beautifully balanced, incredibly stable going quickly. Didn't notice tip-flap at all. Never did find a speed limit on these guys.

    The first day I was on them was a lot of pow. Probably could have had the bigger skis (Great Scotts). That being said, these performed quite well. In the past years I would have been on ARGs or at least Thugs in these conditions, and the Wrenegade isn't on the same level in untouched pow. However, you get it a little cut up, or you start throwing bumps and obstacles in the way and they are much better than the Thugs. I'll be honest, the ARG was an unbelievable pow ski, I knew the Wrenegade wouldn't touch it here.

    It was surprisingly maneuverable in tighter conditions, and for something that measures 194cm, I could throw it around quite easily. You don't think you notice the rocker, but these are the instances where the shorter running length really helps. I didn't think I'd want a full twin initially either, but at 194 it shortens the running length a bit more, plus I appreciated being able to back up in tight situations when necessary (and it was necessary).

    As the day went on, the runouts and "groomers" turned bumpy. Especially the "groomers". There was so much fresh snow that it was a mess with all the people out there. I don't like dealing with people, so I like to basically rip Super G turns down these faces. I was hauling ass, and I have never felt so comfortable, even compared with the Explosives or LPs. Don't get me wrong, those are both great skis, but the difference I'm sure is the metal in the topsheet. More vibration, whereas the bamboo core rebounded evenly and quickly.

    I tried going switch a handful of times. Wasn't the best. Let me start by saying I don't ski switch all that well, though I do like to do it. -10 on these skis is 1cm back of recommended, but I am happy with where they are. It was a little hair-raising after dropping a 5 footer into what I thought was deep stuff and turned out to have a windbuff layer on top. I took off. Rocket Speed. Scared me a bit but I was able to get it under control fairly quickly and put in a couple more turns in the good stuff. They don't have the stopping power of the ARG, but again, I wasn't expecting them too.

    These skis have no issues handling hard pack conditions. They lay down rails on groomers, and so long as they are sharp, are decent on icy stuff. Decent on ice is probably all you'll ever get with a ski that is 110mm+ underfoot. However, because they are just so stable and so good in mixed conditions, bumps, pow (just not up to the ARG/Hellbent/Great Scott funshapes), groomers, at high speed, at low speed, these are without a doubt the best skis I have ever been on. As designed, these will be my go-to ski for pretty much everything.

    edit: While the shape of these is similar to other skis out there, such as the 191 3.Zero and the 192 Big Bro, 190 Katana, 194 Thirteen, they don't really ski alike at all. The 3.Zeros (in the 191 size), the Katanas and the Thirteens are dead feeling until you get going fast on them due to the flat camber, and that flat camber doesn't compare to actual rocker in the pow/crud. The Big Bro is easily a better ski than the three of these, but its 41m radius doesn't make it as user friendly for everything. Also, while the Big Bro and Wrenegade are both super stable at high speed, the Wrenegade feels much smoother, the bamboo core is awesome here.

    For the record, I have not skied the carbon or rockered version(s) of the Big Bro, nor I have I skied the 195 Mothership or 194 XXL.

    another edit: These things ski fine switch. Not great, but ok. I was a pansy the first couple days on them and couldn't do it right.
    Last edited by wren; 08-23-2009 at 12:27 PM.

  2. #2
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    186 Billy Goat

    Stats: 140/115/120, 23m radius at 186cm (189). Rocker is 2cm x 25cm in the tip, 1.5cm x 15cm in the tail.
    Mount: -7 with p18s

    Conditions: Pow, mixed pow, bumpy groomers

    I got the opportunity to try out Billy Goats at Whis for number of runs over two days, back to back with both my Wrenegades and Great Scotts.

    First impressions? Wow, these are light! And playful! Skied the Crystal lifeline which was a a little mixed pow and some moguls/other bumpy stuff with treetops. These things are so much easier to turn than the Wrenegades, which I obviously expected. Very easy to throw around in the mogully stuff actually. A little surprised there. It handled the medium speed going down there quite well. They are a fair bit softer than my Wrenegades but I didn't notice any stability issues here. After the top part, opened them up on some bumps doing one or two turns and then hauled ass down to the lift basically straight lining. Pretty good. Not as stable as the Wrenegades, however, I would say they are better than say a Seth at doing this. I was impressed. The ride is bumpy, but not bad. Not squirrelly in any way.

    Headed up the Glacier to 7th heaven to look for some pow. On the way over, these things were easy to get up on edge. There wasn't any hardpack really, softpacked groomer stuff on the glacier and these things made easy turns. Quick ones, but pretty simple to get on edge and lay em' down. Ice and hardpack is a little more challenging because of the short running length (Scott can chip in here). I do notice that hardpack is not a problem on the Wrenegades, but on ice the rocker tip makes it difficult to engage the turn a bit.

    First run once we got there was down some mixed pow with really soft bumps. These things are playful and love bouncing from turn to turn. They do prefer to make quick turns as opposed to GS or Super G turns down this stuff (like the Wrenegades would do), but when you want to push them they respond. Well. Second run Billy and I ventured bravely into the trees for the first time. We were rewarded. Big time. DEEP pow. And holy crap are these things good there. No competition compared to the Wrenegades. Those felt long, quite long, did not want to turn as easily. Not to say the Wrenegades can't do the trees, but by comparison they are a ton more work. After we exited the trees (and Billy helped me out of a treewell) the remaining run down to the lift was cut up pow. Ripped down the side bouncing from turn to turn, so playfull. The Wrenegades easily handle this snow better at high speed, but they are two completely different animals here. Different, but equally fun.

    Now, here is the kicker. The Billy Goat, more than just passable on groomers, quite decent I would say, and decent in the soft moguls, good in the crud, great in the mixed pow, had at least 80% of the performance of the ARG in the pow where that thing excelled. Seriously, this ski kicks ass.

    Also had this out back to back with the Great Scotts on some wide open stuff, and even when you have a lot of room, the Billy Goats prefer to make quicker turns. You can make em' go straight, but as soon as you lean over on them, the love to turn right away. Where I'd usually make a half dozen turns down an open line, I'd probably do 1.5 times as many on the Billy Goats.

    Could you ski this ski everyday? Yes. Would you want to? No, probably not. But, as a compromise powder/soft snow ski, I haven't skied anything better. This thing rules the trees. It isn't the charger the Wrenegade is, but it is passable at that kind of stuff too. If you aren't big enough for a Great Scott, or don't have a quiver extensive enough, or the money to afford one, buy this ski. Park ski or mid-90s ripper + Billy Goat = amazing 2 ski quiver.
    Last edited by wren; 08-23-2009 at 12:33 PM.

  3. #3
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    191 Great Scott

    Stats: 145/125/130, 29m radius at 191cm (194). Rocker is 2cm x 25cm in the tip, 1.5cm by 15cm in the tail. Taper starts where the rocker starts.
    Mount: -8 w/916s

    I was excited to get out on these babies, but due to the severe lack of base at Whistler, it was way later than I would have hoped. I now have 3 days on them. I also had the chance to ski them back to back with the Billy Goats.

    When I first got out on them, just from the parking lot down to the lift, I was surprised at how well they track. And then up on the hill when I got going faster and got to lay them over, umm, wow, these things can carve! Pretty well in fact! They are not tanks or rocketships (Wrenegades) and the tip rocker does create flap at higher speeds, but it is nothing that isn't manageable, and they are more stable going fast than the Billy Goats.

    First pow I had on them was in some tight trees. Some mid-weight PNW stuff. These skis are beastly. At 194 and stiff, they aren't exactly easy to turn in the trees. Perhaps I was expecting something more akin to the ARG, but I did not find it there. Still fun, and much better than the Wrenegades in the trees, but the Billy Goats kick more ass here. Initial thoughts are MORE ROCKER PLEASE. And I don't really get off this kick. Had a couple more runs through the trees and they are so-so. These things need more speed to reach they full potential, and with a thin base and tight trees, that just isn't doable right now up here.

    Got them into Lakeside (don't worry guys, the avi conditions weren't as bad as they are now, and the line we were skiing had been bombed) and found where these things REALLY excel. Wide open Super G turns in pow. The float, they haul, and they just want to GO! If there is an AK-specific ski out there, this is it. The run just isn't long enough as you make 3 or 4 turns (with a HUGE smile on your face) and you've reached the flats. Tip shape provides a little sink over some rollers here, again, more rocker needed.

    Crud? Kills it. There isn't really much more to say. If there isn't anything in your way (trees, rocks, people) you can just step on them and let em' ride. No problem. When it gets more skied out and mogully, They get thrown around a bit. Wrenegades are better here for sure.

    After getting another 2 days on these, in similar conditions all around, I have a number of comments. These skis need more rocker. Current tip stats are 2cm over 25cm, and that should be increased to 3.5cm over 30cm. Tail rocker should stay at 1.5cm but be lengthened to 20cm (if possible). Taper should be brought back to corresponding positions, shortening the turning radius to around 27m. This is a good thing, the turning radius does need to be shortened up just a bit, it will help in the trees, but lengthened rocker will allow them to be controllable to run free and straightline. Will the extra rocker and taper make these things worse on groomers? Yes, it probably will. But this is also a good thing. This is a POW ski, and as of right now it skis too well on groomers at the expense of its pow performance. Secondly, bamboo sidewalls need to be replaced with UHMW or p-tex. Bases are plenty durable so long as you wax them nicely.

    Final thoughts? This is an unbelievable wide-open, big turning pow ski, that currently skis too long in tight trees. I haven't had the chance to open it up in the actual glades, where I am sure it will do better, however even more rocker will make that performance.....even better still. It kills it in the crud, and is more than manageable on groomers. When the base gets deeper, I will be skiing these a lot. As an aside, the Billy Goat is currently a better ski in the trees. This is a testament to how good that ski is, but more-so, another reason to change this one. Even at 194, this ski should be better in the trees (except when walking around and maneuvering, where no matter what the extra 5cm are going to make it more difficult).

    The other two skis have their shapes pretty dialed in, but we'll have some changes to this one for the next press. This was supposed to be a bigger, better ARG but so far it isn't there yet. Close, but not there. Currently it does everything better except tight trees, and hopefully stepping up the rocker and taper allows the shape to get to the point where it does everything better or as good.

    edit: First off, the changes that Scott and I both felt needed to happen to have this ski really excel have been made. The new shape reflects this.

    Secondly, after getting another dozen or so (at least) days on these skis the rest of the season, I am not as pessimistic on the shortcomings of these skis as I was after the first 3 days. I still maintain they are not as good in the trees as the Billy Goats, but damn are they fun. Also, I feel they are the world's best landing pads. I just love doing drops, cliffs, jumps (into powder) on these. The small changes made to the ski are going to make quite a different in the trees, which is the only area this ski needed improvement, and I can't wait to get out on a pair.
    Last edited by wren; 08-23-2009 at 12:55 PM.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by wren View Post
    Wrenegade

    However, because they are just so stable and so good in mixed conditions, bumps, pow (just not up to the ARG/Hellbent/Great Scott funshapes), groomers, at high speed, at low speed, these are without a doubt the best skis I have ever been on.
    For what it is worth, that was the 2nd pair out of the press (and 5th and 6th ski overall).

    Quote Originally Posted by wren View Post
    Billy Goat

    short running length
    117cm

    Quote Originally Posted by wren

    191 Great Scott

    The other two skis have their shapes pretty dialed in, but we'll have some changes to this one for the next press. This was supposed to be a bigger, better ARG but so far it isn't there yet. Close, but not there. Currently it does everything better except tight trees, and hopefully stepping up the rocker and taper allows the shape to get to the point where it does everything better or as good.
    Idea was to sort of take a ski like the FFF and add the benefits of taper and rocker to get something that in pow is capable of everything. Sort of like a mutant baby of an ARG and FFF. My thoughts on the shape mirror Alex's. I think it needs more tip and tail rocker to increase its ability to smear and slide around more. If we keep the dimensions the same, it will drop the turning radius down a bit and will still hopefully keep the ski capable on groomers.

    I skied it in waist deep snow at Meadows and definitely had a lot of fun. It medium width trees I was ok, but they are not small skis.

    I measure length tip to tail after the ski is pressed. There is some slight variation due to the rocker combo we chose for each ski, but it pretty close to dead on. A lot of companies measure before the tip/tail shape is added, so compared to most, our skis measure long. I just think ours measure correctly .

    In its current shape, this ski would be great for open areas but I do want to increase its playful some. Ideally we can strike a balance between playfulness and its ability to charge. I would hate to lose this skis ability to opening it up in pow and chop, but if I can make it a more all around pow ski I will be please.

    As Alex said, hardpack performance is almost too good considering its size. I have a lot going on in my head right now as to how to alter this shape to make it better.

    One thing that I like is that we can add 10cm of rocker (5cm tip and tail) and the running length is still within 5cm of the billy goat, which by all accounts does fine on hardpack. I could even add 20cm more rocker (10cm tip and tail) and it would still have over 100cm of sidecut, so I just need to find the balance in that range.

    Based upon what people have been saying about the billy goats ability in the trees, I really think that there is a shape out there that will ski almost as well as a fully reverse sidecut ski but will actually be fun and carveable on groomers.

    O, and yeah. I have not been a fan of the bamboo sidewalls, but that was to be expected. I wanted to focus on shapes, flexs, and camber, and until those are set didn't want to deal with the hassle and cost of going to UHMW. I definitely look forward to them though.

    My reviews of these skis will be coming at some point. It has been hard to get adequate time on them with the late PNW season and being gone for 10 days over the holidays. When I get some more time on them, I will. When I finally get to it I will be reviewing the current Great Scott, Caylor, Wrenegade (medium and medium-stiff), Jeronimo (medium-soft and medium-stiff), Blue Steele, and a JBS. Hopefully a pair of billy goats later in the season.
    Last edited by iggyskier; 01-08-2009 at 01:05 AM.
    Seriously, this canít turn into yet another ON3P thread....

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by iggyskier View Post
    For what it is worth, that was the 2 pair out of the press (and 5th and 6th ski overall).
    Wait, how many "2 pairs out of the press" have been passed around? This pair laying next to me in my bed were the same? I feel so dirty.

    I have loved every minute on the Wrenegades so far. Some amazing and scary stuff. Had them under Gods Wall after the ice/powder cycle last week. My life depended on the craftsmanship you put into these. They killed it.

    I have been thinking of writing a review, but I have nothing bad to say.

    So, sick skis yo. And a nice write-up Wren. Good work all around.
    Last edited by ski_pdx; 01-08-2009 at 12:02 AM.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by ski_pdx View Post
    Wait, how many "2 pairs out of the press" have been passed around? This pair laying next to me in my bed were the same? I feel so dirty.

    I have loved every minute on the Wrenegades so far. Some amazing and scary stuff. Had them under Gods Wall after the ice/powder cycle last week. My life depended on the craftsmanship you put into these. They killed it.

    I have been thinking of writing a review, but I have nothing bad to say.

    So, sick skis yo. And a nice write-up Wren. Good work all around.
    I suck at typing.

    His pair was the 2nd pair out of the press (5th and 6th ski).

    The pair you have been using is the 1st pair out of the press (3rd and 4th ski).

    His pair is stiffer and has more carbon then your pair, so definitely not the same.

    I still want a review. Need to find out what to improve, and if there is nothing to improve, at least it will stroke my ego .

    Seriously, though, there has to be something.
    Last edited by iggyskier; 01-08-2009 at 12:58 AM.
    Seriously, this canít turn into yet another ON3P thread....

  7. #7
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    I feel like Joe Dirt in the hole, "alright!"

    My stats:

    Age: 34
    Height: 6'
    Weight: 180lbs
    Boots: Nordica Hotrod Nitrous
    Style: "I like to ski fast, charge, Super G turns, that sort of thing" add steeps and switch.
    Current skis: 165 Rossi Mutix, 185 Pocket Rockets, 186 Prophet 130
    Other skis I like: Ninthward THA 187, Pontoons, OG Gotamas, 205 K2 Extremes
    Other skis I do not like: seems like a strange and oximoronical statement

    191 Wrenegade (not-so-stiff)

    Dude, seriously... I have been skiing these with a review in mind and can't think of anything. They ski easy and only need a simple edge tune (which I have been too lazy to do) to get the perfectness dialed.

    I have had one day on them in great NW pow. That is like cheating cuz that was a hero day and I was on killer new skis.

    Then I left them at home on a day I wished I hadn't. My buddies were getting tired of listening to me on the lift pissing and moaning that I didn't have the Wrens.

    The other day I had them up was a dust on crust day where these held edges and gave confidence where other skis would have failed me. The flex points and stablitiy of these gave additional currage to bag some lines I wouldn't normally have, on such a shitty day.

    The reason I like these so much is the not-so-stiff-flex and the straight tail, combined with the tip rocker. This combo creates quicker/stable/smooth turns (for a 191) and nice float with no pesky wheely'ing out or sore acl's (from lack of tails putting me in the backseat on hardcharging air/lines).

    I will say they do not have the fun factor of the Pontoons from a goofing around standpoint. But, that is not what I wanted.

    All I wanted was a fatter-than-first-gen gotama, with tip rocker and curb appeal.

    Hahaha... that sounds like the perfect description of this ski.

    I entend to add to this post as I only have two days on them (seed planted for Scott to let me keep skiing these). Impressive stuff so far.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by ski_pdx View Post

    I entend to add to this post as I only have two days on them (seed planted for Scott to let me keep skiing these). Impressive stuff so far.
    You can definitely hang on to them for a few weeks at least. They are getting sent to Tahoe with some friends at the end of the month, so gonna need them back by then. In the mean time, enjoy.
    Seriously, this canít turn into yet another ON3P thread....

  9. #9
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    Quite a few questions these days, so I thought I'd bump this thread.

  10. #10
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    Can someone who has ridden both the Lhasa 186 and the Billy Goat compare the two. Very similar designs from what I can tell.

  11. #11
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    You guys planning on having any skis around south lake this season... any planned demo days.... Kirkwood? I know a bunch of people here would be stoked to take some of these for a spin. Grant it they are much closer, but when Moment came out last season so many people got stoked on their brand... think this could work very well for you as well, especially if the skis are as killer as they sound.

  12. #12
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    Thanks for the reviews. Has anyone skied both the Great Scotts and Salomon Rockers? I'm thinking the Great Scotts will be a bit more versatile and manageable due to the fact that the skier is more centered on the skis' sidecut (whereas the Rockers are like skiing on stiffass fat tails with no tip). But considering they have tail rocker, I'm wondering how the tail support is on them. Do you need to stay pretty forward or are there good tails to complete turns and land drops?

  13. #13
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    From DePierre's Great Scott 191 Review:

    "Air: Feel really good in the air. Stable landings. Great pop off the lip. I feel like I can stomp anything on these planks. "

    After flexing them @ ON3P's factory today (Thanks for the tour/hospitality Scott and Sam) I don't see how they couldn't stomp airs well. Seemed like the right amount of flex behind the boot to stomp something big. Haven't ridden them myself of course, but not an issue I think you need to worry about. Large airs are part of what this ski were designed for.
    Just ski down there and jump off something for crying out loud!

    http://www.evo.com - http://www.nwac.us/

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by D(C) View Post
    Thanks for the reviews. Has anyone skied both the Great Scotts and Salomon Rockers? I'm thinking the Great Scotts will be a bit more versatile and manageable due to the fact that the skier is more centered on the skis' sidecut (whereas the Rockers are like skiing on stiffass fat tails with no tip). But considering they have tail rocker, I'm wondering how the tail support is on them. Do you need to stay pretty forward or are there good tails to complete turns and land drops?
    Unfortunately I have not skied the Rocker so I can't comment with regards to that.

    Otherwise...tail support is good. The rocker (and taper) there is minimal, enough to allow release of the tails in the tight stuff, but not so much that you get that wheelie feeling. They can carve a turn decently on the groomed stuff and in pow or chopped up stuff they are a dream. Whatever you want them to do they will do. Easy to initiate a turn but if you don't want to you never feel like you have to. They will straightline easily. As for staying forward on them, not too bad. I found mine getting away from me the first couple times I was on them but it was easy to adjust. I also mounted mine 1cm back from suggested (as I did my Wrenegades). I would mount suggested next time for sure. As for drops/landings, I can only speak up to the 15-20 foot range, but they are unbelievable. Best landing pads I've ever skied.

  15. #15
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    Thanks for the reviews. Has anyone skied both the Billy Goats 186 and ObSETHedís 189 and be willing to share your insights. Iím familiar with the Sethís but have yet to experience the Goatís

  16. #16
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    Need some enlightment pls.

    If you cross a S7 and a EHP193...what do you get? Wrenegade or great scott??

  17. #17
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    You get SEHP1937.
    If you are getting rad but there is no one to see you. Are you really getting rad at all?

  18. #18
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    ^Don't quit your day job.

  19. #19
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    Or is it in fact a BG186?

  20. #20
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    can anybody tell me the weight of any of these 3 skis ?

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by shasti View Post
    can anybody tell me the weight of any of these 3 skis ?
    FFS, did you search dude?

    B-Goat weight, in the ski weight thread no less, jeesh!

    [ame="https://www.tetongravity.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2499673&postcount=138"]Teton Gravity Research Forums - View Single Post - The Official Ski Weight Thread[/ame]

  22. #22
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    The weights of those skis are also listed in another thread somewhere, but they are for protos and I think the layups have changed a little since(different sidewalls, thicker edge and base material). So you will probably have to wait till they press the production skis to get final weights.

  23. #23
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    sorry, I'm sure this has been answered somewhere. Does the wrenegade have camber back from the tip? How long does the 181 feel?
    No longer stuck.

    Quote Originally Posted by stuckathuntermtn View Post
    Just an uneducated guess.

  24. #24
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    i want all 3 weights of production models. when they become available, if anybody knows them, please post. thanks

  25. #25
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    Pic Tures, Plez

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