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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
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    Ridgefield, CT
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    176

    HELP! BRO 183 or Lhasa 186 or something else?

    I'm looking for advice and suggestions as to which Ski to buy. I've scanned many posts and have been intrigued by PM Gears' approach to design and light weight philosophy. However, I'm quite confused by all the lingo and endless options so I would like to ask for your help! Last year I did some guided off-piste / power skiing in Austria and loved it (although it was the most difficult skiing I ever did in my life!) Hence my desire to now get the right kind of ski and avoid all the rental hassle. Contrary to alot of advice I've read, I would really prefer not to have to buy dedicated skis for various conditions and terrains. Frankly, I'm having a hard time believing that a ski like the Lhasa 186 can do everything (when used by someone of my intermediate skill level). I can believe that pro's can ski anything with any ski, but that will never be me.

    Some background information...

    I'm 38 years old, 6"1' (186cm ), 202lbs (92Kg) Originally, I come from Canada, where I've been skiing for about 10 years, mostly east coast (flat and icy) with an annual trip to the Rockies. Now I live in Southern Germany so my main skiing for the last 3 years has been in the Austrian Alps (St. Anton region) with a mix of some local very small, very easy hills, just to stay in the groove. My current skis are Atomic Beta Ride 9.0 approximately 180+cm (sorry but I can't remember the exact length), which are about five years old and rated as an 'all mountain ski'. I have not used them for several years now as I tend to rent due to the fact that I find them very tiring and difficult to control in boot deep snow, crud, etc. I would conservatively rate my ability as an advanced-intermediate -I will (attempt to) ski virtually any terrain, albeit with varying degrees of skill. I don't attempt any big jumps or drop-offs. I prefer 'off-piste' terrain, love tree skiing, etc... but have never done any real back country skiing.

    I emailed PM Gear and their advice was to go for the Lhasa 186 (over the 183's), but they're HUGE! I have never skied anything that wide before. In fact I was thinking that the 183's would even be too wide. I do understand that the Lhasa have a different sidecut and profile which makes then unique compared to other dedicated POW ski's. Maybe I'm overstated my ability? Would either of these skis be too much for me to handle? Will I be able to turn them in virtually any condition or situation?

    So, Which PM Gear ski model/size do you recommend? Also, which bindings are recommended?

    If the PM Gear is not what I need, what should I consider? Brand or price is not an issue.

    Thanks for your help!

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
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    uTardedland
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    From talking to one of the owners last night on his new Lhasa 196, the 186 Lhasa is the answer.

    More info here: PMGear Forums

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
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    crown of the continent
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    I'm roughly your size, and am on the 188 Softs. Most stable, predictable and fun skis i've ever been on. There are likely others that are as good, but this is what i landed on and am really pleased with them. My next pair are likely going to be the 186's. Or 196's. Or both. Reviews are still coming in, but they sound like they do indeed rip it all up. If you get either the 183's or 186's you'll be blown away. Given the 183's are made in euroworld, could be a bit more affordable option, and a really fun ski.
    Something about the wrinkle in your forehead tells me there's a fit about to get thrown
    And I never hear a single word you say when you tell me not to have my fun
    It's the same old shit that I ain't gonna take off anyone.
    and I never had a shortage of people tryin' to warn me about the dangers I pose to myself.

    Patterson Hood of the DBT's

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
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    Ventura Highway in the Sunshine
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    I own 183s and have skied the 186s twice. Both are great skis, and both will do everything you ask of them. The difference is were they will get the most use. If you will be off piste in pow a lot, and less on firm packed snow/groomers I would suggest the 186s. While they will do okay on the hard pack, it is their weakest point. If you will be skiing a mix of everything, then go 183s or even 188s. They are both great all around skis. I have ski days and days in pow, and they were great. I have hard to ski boilerplate on them, and they did fine (I am not sure the 186s would have done nearly as well on the boilerplate.)

    IMHO the Lhasa Pow is a great powder ski, that will do well on anything, while the 183 is a great every condition ski that will do well in powder. Personally, for a one ski quiver, I would go 183s.

    I agree it is a constitutional right for Americans to be assholes...its just too bad that so many take the opportunity...
    iscariot

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Conway, NH and Bristol, RI
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    117
    I was just going to write a huge paragraph on how they both excel in there own right because the lhasa is wide as shit and the bro isnt then i went and looked at dims and get the lhasa. Its wide enough that it will ski very well in powder but not so wide that it wont ski groomers or hardpack well. as far as size go with a 186 your a tall guy and i think youll find that it will float you a bit better in deep snow as well as be a bit faster on the hard stuff. Lhasas 186

  6. #6
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    Oct 2003
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    The owner I spoke to last night said his 196 Lhasa's did great on groomers last Sat. While it is not the skis strong point, he said they get it done.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Whistler, BC
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    68
    I've skied both the 183 and the Lhasa 186. They're both great skis, but they have different merits.

    The Lhasa 186 is the most versatile ski I have ever been on. Basically, due to its design, it turrns really quickly despite its width, the rockered tip makes it easy to float through and over shitty, crusty snow and powder as well, and it also works decently on groomers. You can use it for pretty much anything - tight trees, big turns down wide open bowls, billygoat lines down cliffs, or just cruising around all over the resort, on-piste, off-piste, glades, whatever. There are probably better skis for skiing exclusively on-piste, but they're not going to perform well anywhere else.

    The 183 is just an all around easy ski, but it's not as good as the Lhasa 186 off-piste. There are two advantages it has over the Lhasa: It has a more traditional shape than the Lhasa, so they won't take as much getting used to, and they perform a little better on-piste.

    Don't be scared of getting to know the Lhasa though. It took me about half a day. All the people that I've talked to that skied them said they loved them. I would not recommend that lhasas for a complete beginner, but i think they make a lot of the aspects of skiing easier, and wouldn't hesitate to recommend them to an intermediate skier.

    PM (private message) me if you have any other questions, I'd be happy to answer them.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    SF, CA
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    814
    How much time do you spend on groomed slopes vs. tracked/ungroomed vs. powder/untracked?

    How much would you like to spend on each?

    From the sounds of it, you'll still be spending a lot more time on piste then off. I'd stick with the more traditional 183 if I were you. The TGR opinion of "versatile" is not the same as most skiers'. I desperately want a pair of lhasas, myself, but until I can demo a pair will assume they are "good enough" on groomed vs laugh-out-loud fun.

  9. #9
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    Jan 2006
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    Missoula
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    I'd get something else, anything else

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Ridgefield, CT
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    176
    I ski as much 'off piste' as I possibly can but never venture out-of-bounds or do back country touring. The only time I ski groomers is to get back to the lift.

    PM Gear is adamant that the new Lhasa POW is a true 'all round' ski: powder to ice. They claim that no other ski can do this???

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Livermore, CA
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    191
    one possibility: ask Pat to grab a pair of lhasa with more camber rather than less camber.

    This will make the ski more piste friendly but the rockered tip will give you plenty to smile about in fresh snow.

    You could also go the other way and see if they've a pair of 188/183 with some tip rocker.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    May 2007
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    The Right Coast
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    I'm rocking the Lhasa as a one ski quiver on the EC. Just do it, what's the worst that could happen.

  13. #13
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    Feb 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by bennettc14 View Post
    I'm rocking the Lhasa as a one ski quiver on the EC. Just do it, what's the worst that could happen.
    samesiess . . .if they ever get here that is. . .

    Really though . . .fat is the new sidecut, join the rave - there is a reason. . .I skied s7s today on mank and groomers and they were a blast - I expect the Lhasa's to be the same - go Lhasa . .

    Also - don't ask splat for a 188 or 183 with rocker - it was tried, and apparently it wasn't pretty . . .
    Recreation <-> Conservation

  14. #14
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    Sep 2008
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    I have 183 soft's on the way. I chose them over the 186 because I take an annual trip to the Dolomites during which I spend a significant amount of time skiing both groomers (unless their is fresh snow) and skinning/ skiing off trail. My 61 year old step father is still a great skier, but he can't kill it day after day anymore. Some days we are off piste, but other days are more about the scenery and moving from peak to peak on lifts. Because we stay at different rifugios every night, I can't bring more than one pair of skis, and I actually think bombing at 50 or 60 mph down trails on which they hold world cup races is pretty fun. I also do a lot of EC backcountry days in late spring when powder is rare.

    However, I have come to regret my decision. The more I hear about the 186 carbons, the more I think they would have been the perfect ski for me. What sold me (too late) was hearing so many people rave about rockered skis in just a few inches of new snow, as well as reviews of the Lhasa and the ON3P skis suggesting they, unlike other rockered skis, are excellent on hardpack.

    I would recommend you get the 186's. If you are an advanced intermediate, as you say, skiing groomers should be no problem for you, and you will probably struggle at skiing bumps no matter what ski you are on. In powder, however, the 186 will turn you into a hero. Both skis should serve you well in crud, though not as well as a heavier ski.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Posts
    29,094
    Just to drop in here.....black diamonds - if you think you want to switch up, shoot me a mail. We'll be shipping 20 pair of 186 Lhasas this coming week, then flipping to 196s. That will fill all but the latest Lhasa 186 orders and we have to press the 196s for people who have been patiently awaiting (thanks, y'all).

    The 183s are real close to arriving. I'm buggin the shit out of Aldo to get 'er done. But if you want to flip from 183s to 186s, the time between when you'd get your 183s and when you'd get your 186s should be minimal. Since there's been some internet whining about the lateness of the 183's we're offering to flip any 183 buyers to 186 glass Lhasas as a token of our apologies and as a reward for the faith of those people who haven't emailed me on a daily basis.

    A word on the Lhasas; No ski is a substitute for good form. The new skis might allow you to ski better, but they won't really make you a better skier. However, the weight forward stance the Lhasas demand just might make you ski better when you go back to a traditionally shaped ski because the weight forward stance will have become second nature after a while on the Lhasas. It's so nice to drive a ski in powder and crud as if you were on a race course.

  16. #16
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    Feb 2008
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    Portland Maine
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    Quote Originally Posted by splat View Post
    We'll be shipping 20 pair of 186 Lhasas this coming week, then flipping to 196s. That will fill all but the latest Lhasa 186 orders and we have to press the 196s for people who have been patiently awaiting (thanks, y'all).

    . . . . .Doooooooooope . . . . .
    Recreation <-> Conservation

  17. #17
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    Apr 2008
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    191
    Quote Originally Posted by splat View Post
    A word on the Lhasas; No ski is a substitute for good form.
    AAWWWWWWWWWWWWwwww WTF Splat !!!!????

    You promised me the Lhasa's would turn my jongy gaper ass into a chiseled stud of a maggot!

    Guess I need to sell my 186 carbons.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Ridgefield, CT
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    176
    We'll I did it! Based on all the advice here, I went ahead and ordered a pair of Lhasa 186's today. I really hope they live up to the expectations and hype.

    Now the search is on for bindings. Any suggestions? I think I want to stick with an Alpine binding but should I consider the Marker Duke -just in case I ever want to do any touring?

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
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    A LSD Steakhouse somewhere in the Wasatch
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    Quote Originally Posted by splat View Post
    Just to drop in here.....black diamonds - if you think you want to switch up, shoot me a mail. We'll be shipping 20 pair of 186 Lhasas this coming week, then flipping to 196s. That will fill all but the latest Lhasa 186 orders and we have to press the 196s for people who have been patiently awaiting (thanks, y'all).

    The 183s are real close to arriving. I'm buggin the shit out of Aldo to get 'er done. But if you want to flip from 183s to 186s, the time between when you'd get your 183s and when you'd get your 186s should be minimal. Since there's been some internet whining about the lateness of the 183's we're offering to flip any 183 buyers to 186 glass Lhasas as a token of our apologies and as a reward for the faith of those people who haven't emailed me on a daily basis.

    A word on the Lhasas; No ski is a substitute for good form. The new skis might allow you to ski better, but they won't really make you a better skier. However, the weight forward stance the Lhasas demand just might make you ski better when you go back to a traditionally shaped ski because the weight forward stance will have become second nature after a while on the Lhasas. It's so nice to drive a ski in powder and crud as if you were on a race course.
    Interewebular whining??? Don't worry about a few barking ursalas I tied to set them straight. You know me I doubt I made many friends over there
    or converted any of them to the brogram, but if you put stoke into the search fuction Pm Gear and a lot of good pics will come up not that it matters to them. Shit Splat with the lack of snow I've even been over to NS trying to school the stezzey retards in the way of the bro. Sooner or later their gonna get older and wiser They will get tired of beating themselves up in the park and figure out there is no pain in the white room only blissfull enlightenment. Sad that they are the future of skiing but you can only hope to change the future not deny it.
    Send a pimp more hookers, blow and skis
    OP if you make it out zion way give me a shout and you can try them both.
    Last edited by skifishbum; 12-07-2008 at 09:44 AM.
    "When the child was a child it waited patiently for the first snow and it still does"- Van "The Man" Morrison
    "I find I have already had my reward, in the doing of the thing" - Buzz Holmstrom
    "THIS IS WHAT WE DO"-AML -
    ski on in eternal peace

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
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    Quote Originally Posted by ludwigk View Post
    should I consider the Marker Duke -just in case I ever want to do any touring?
    why not?

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
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    Ridgefield, CT
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    176
    Quote Originally Posted by skifishbum View Post
    Interewebular whining??? Don't worry about a few barking ursalas I tied to set them straight. You know me I doubt I made many friends over there
    or converted any of them to the brogram, but if you put stoke into the search fuction Pm Gear and a lot of good pics will come up not that it matters to them. Shit Splat with the lack of snow I've even been over to NS trying to school the stezzey retards in the way of the bro. Sooner or later their gonna get older and wiser They will get tired of beating themselves up in the park and figure out there is no pain in the white room only blissfull enlightenment. Sad that they are the future of skiing but you can only hope to change the future not deny it.
    Send a pimp more hookers, blow and skis
    OP if you make it out zion way give me a shout and you can try them both.
    I have no frigg'n idea what you're trying to say?!

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
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    Portland Maine
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    330
    Quote Originally Posted by ludwigk View Post
    I have no frigg'n idea what you're trying to say?!

    Its the blow talking - you'll get used to it. . .
    Recreation <-> Conservation

  23. #23
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    Sep 2008
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    Not Brooklyn
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    Quote Originally Posted by splat View Post
    Just to drop in here.....black diamonds - if you think you want to switch up, shoot me a mail. We'll be shipping 20 pair of 186 Lhasas this coming week, then flipping to 196s. That will fill all but the latest Lhasa 186 orders and we have to press the 196s for people who have been patiently awaiting (thanks, y'all).

    The 183s are real close to arriving. I'm buggin the shit out of Aldo to get 'er done. But if you want to flip from 183s to 186s, the time between when you'd get your 183s and when you'd get your 186s should be minimal. Since there's been some internet whining about the lateness of the 183's we're offering to flip any 183 buyers to 186 glass Lhasas as a token of our apologies and as a reward for the faith of those people who haven't emailed me on a daily basis.

    A word on the Lhasas; No ski is a substitute for good form. The new skis might allow you to ski better, but they won't really make you a better skier. However, the weight forward stance the Lhasas demand just might make you ski better when you go back to a traditionally shaped ski because the weight forward stance will have become second nature after a while on the Lhasas. It's so nice to drive a ski in powder and crud as if you were on a race course.
    Thank you for the generous offer, but I think I'll stick with the 183's. The Lhasa's are more exciting, more exotic, but hardpack, especially of the refrozen EC spring variety, is a part of my skiing life, and these will be my only touring ski. If I can scrounge up a dozen powder days, I'll be more than satisfied on the 183's, but they will have a distinct advantage on icy/hard 45-50 degree slopes where an equipment advantage is a matter of safety rather than enjoyment. Right? I'll save up for some 196 Lhasa's (maybe after trying them) or even some stiff 188's or 192's for blasting through crud inbounds. I wish I skied regularly in a place where a longer rockered ski would be a perfect every day ski, but I don't. Anyway, you provide your customers with joyous dilemmas. I admire the way you run your business, and will continue to support your company.

  24. #24
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    Sep 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by ludwigk View Post
    We'll I did it! Based on all the advice here, I went ahead and ordered a pair of Lhasa 186's today. I really hope they live up to the expectations and hype.

    Now the search is on for bindings. Any suggestions? I think I want to stick with an Alpine binding but should I consider the Marker Duke -just in case I ever want to do any touring?
    Unless you've broken bindings in the past or you crank them up over 11, get Marker Barons. They are a lighter, cheaper, lower DIN version of the Duke.

  25. #25
    Join Date
    May 2002
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    29,094
    Quote Originally Posted by I've seen black diamonds! View Post
    Thank you for the generous offer, but I think I'll stick with the 183's. The Lhasa's are more exciting, more exotic, but hardpack, especially of the refrozen EC spring variety, is a part of my skiing life, and these will be my only touring ski. If I can scrounge up a dozen powder days, I'll be more than satisfied on the 183's, but they will have a distinct advantage on icy/hard 45-50 degree slopes where an equipment advantage is a matter of safety rather than enjoyment. Right? I'll save up for some 196 Lhasa's (maybe after trying them) or even some stiff 188's or 192's for blasting through crud inbounds. I wish I skied regularly in a place where a longer rockered ski would be a perfect every day ski, but I don't. Anyway, you provide your customers with joyous dilemmas. I admire the way you run your business, and will continue to support your company.
    Thanks, I just had a guy chewin my ass because we hadn't put the weights up on the site.
    And for what you just described the 183 is the ski for that snow and terrain.

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