espresso making mags?

[mattig]

Re scales, this guy is the shit:


On the topic of quiet grinders, Eureka Atom is the quietest I've heard. Hate what it cost, but fuckin love the thing. Hopper design means beans can linger but the trade off is that it fits under the standard cabinet height.

Fuck spoons and dosers and shit. Grind right into the portafilter and sweep up the overflow. I got mine situated a few inches from an undermount sink. Easy peasy.

Fuck knock boxes. Straight into garbage or compost.

Fuck tamp pads. Hold porta filter in one hand and tamper in other and just fuckin send it.

[Slow 'n Steady]

^^agree. Straight into portafilter (a funnel can be nice depending on your set-up). No need for knock boxes, tramp pads, etc. You can keep your space tight. I do indulge in a bent paper clip for distribution and a $2 mirror to watch the bottomless.

[retirwntm]

Yeah I’m really curious about all these methods and steps and things I don’t know about that could be helping me make better espresso. If it’s manageable things like measurement of beans for consistency and other things that are easy to do I’m all in especially since I’m stuck at home and have more time to perfect my morning coffee.

I always assumed the better coffee I get at the shop is because of better (read more expensive) coffee makers that have greater pressure I can live with that. I’m not buying a several thousand dollar machine, then grinder then scale then on and on.

I do almost exactly the above. I grind my coffee right into the portafilter up to the top. I use a cheap plastic tamper and press down as hard as is reasonable. That’s it. Other than getting water on top of my puck at the end I’m pretty ok with my results.


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[retirwntm]

Don’t get me wrong, I don’t mean to sound like a Luddite. I’m really interested in hearing all about what everyone does even if that’s primarily buying more expensive machinery.


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[mattig]

I wasn't a believer. I went into a local shop that let me pull my own shots in a few different machines with a few different grinders. I brought my own beans.

Ultimately though, I refused to live without direct plumb. Think I've said that higher up the thread, but it bears repeating. I ended up with the cheapest direct plumb machine. No discernible difference between the shots it pulled and those of machines costing 4k more, but a significant improvement over the machines that aren't made of metal.

I measured grams when I was new to it. Gets old quick. My triple basket starts overflowing right at 20g, anyway.

If you get a nice enough machine that allows for different basket and portafilter combinations, a bottomless portafilter can tell you a lot about how things are going. It'll also spray coffee all over your counter and machine. That gets less common with practice but it still happens.

Sounds like you want to spend less than 1k for a machine though. When I was considering that, the Rancilio seemed to be high on the list. Guessing you could find a good deal on a used commercial machine soon.

People that know a bunch about this stuff will tell you to spend the big money on a grinder, relative to your expectations. I thought they were fucking nuts. Now I agree. If I had 1500 to spend, I'd spend 750-1000 on the grinder. When I brought my new grinder home, I did a lot of side by side with my old breville. That's a great grinder for 200 bucks, but the gap between that and a high end grinder is the biggest in the whole deal.

[rod9301]

I wasn't a believer. I went into a local shop that let me pull my own shots in a few different machines with a few different grinders. I brought my own beans.

Ultimately though, I refused to live without direct plumb. Think I've said that higher up the thread, but it bears repeating. I ended up with the cheapest direct plumb machine. No discernible difference between the shots it pulled and those of machines costing 4k more, but a significant improvement over the machines that aren't made of metal.

I measured grams when I was new to it. Gets old quick. My triple basket starts overflowing right at 20g, anyway.

If you get a nice enough machine that allows for different basket and portafilter combinations, a bottomless portafilter can tell you a lot about how things are going. It'll also spray coffee all over your counter and machine. That gets less common with practice but it still happens.

Sounds like you want to spend less than 1k for a machine though. When I was considering that, the Rancilio seemed to be high on the list. Guessing you could find a good deal on a used commercial machine soon.

People that know a bunch about this stuff will tell you to spend the big money on a grinder, relative to your expectations. I thought they were fucking nuts. Now I agree. If I had 1500 to spend, I'd spend 750-1000 on the grinder. When I brought my new grinder home, I did a lot of side by side with my old breville. That's a great grinder for 200 bucks, but the gap between that and a high end grinder is the biggest in the whole deal.

Why is the direct plumb better?

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[mattig]

80 percent convenience. 20 percent longevity of an expensive appliance. Set it and forget it. Never have to fill the thing up. Never have to descale. Don't have to worry about when the thing will ultimately break as descaling is an imperfect art (in my experience). And distilled water tastes like shit for coffee (in my opinion).

Oh and I should clarify the improvement in the coffee I mentioned had to do with the price point of direct plumb machines and not the direct plumb itself. In other words, stepping up to direct plumb forces you to step up into a bigger league of price/quality.

[jm2e]

With all this emphasis on grind quality, weight, water, etc; I’m actually surprised there isn’t any talk of measuring tamping pressure. If I can use a self contained 5nM torque wrench on my bike, I imagine something similar could be made into a tamper.


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[mntlion]

With all this emphasis on grind quality, weight, water, etc; I’m actually surprised there isn’t any talk of measuring tamping pressure. If I can use a self contained 5nM torque wrench on my bike, I imagine something similar could be made into a tamper.


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I have a calibrated tamp with a spring in it for same pressure each time.

[XXX-er]

the Rancillio sylvia has been bomber for maybe 7 yrs and the breville Roma for even longer

The Racillio is all metal with switches that go click, it lives next to the sink and i fll with the sink sprayer ... almost built in

For a cheap machine the breville makes pretty good coffee

Got a couple of Capresso Infinity burr grinders, they work fine the newer one is quieter than the first one

[mattig]

With all this emphasis on grind quality, weight, water, etc; I’m actually surprised there isn’t any talk of measuring tamping pressure. If I can use a self contained 5nM torque wrench on my bike, I imagine something similar could be made into a tamper.


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Rig up a bathroom scale and experiment. It was an eye opener for me. My takeaway was that excess pressure had an insignificant effect compared to insufficient pressure.

[XXX-er]

so just lean into that tamper ?

[mntlion]

so just lean into that tamper ?

30pounds is a starting point usually, like anything with espresso, see what you like

[donutlynx]

Rig up a bathroom scale and experiment. It was an eye opener for me. My takeaway was that excess pressure had an insignificant effect compared to insufficient pressure.

This is my takeaway, as well. If the grind is close, and the dosage is correct for the basket size, excess tamping pressure isn't a problem. There is a maximum tamp density to a certain grind - doesn't seem to be much of a difference in extraction time and volume between 20# and 40# of tamp.

On the other hand - not enough pressure can really change both (holding dosage and grind constant).

[XXX-er]

yeah lean into it

[riser4]

yeah lean into it

That's what she said.

[Slow 'n Steady]

Don’t get me wrong, I don’t mean to sound like a Luddite. I’m really interested in hearing all about what everyone does even if that’s primarily buying more expensive machinery.


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Don’t worry how you sound. The rabbit hole on this stuff goes deep and there are LOTS of opinions. (and you know what they say about opinions)

Pulling really good shots is fickle. The process has the powerful pull of variable intermittent reinforcement, like a slot machine kinda. That feedback pattern also makes it ripe for ritual and superstition. Like an athlete who always does a certain little dance before walking out onto the field before a game, people who get into this develop little idiosyncrasies in their beliefs and workflow that they passionately defend as critical to success.

And those that are susceptible to all that (like me!) get sucked in. I’ve been into espresso for three decades, have run the gamut, small manual, high powered semi-auto, auto, super auto, flow profiler, spice grinder, giant commercial grinder, prosumer grinders, hand grinders, and on and on. Currently I’m using a small lever machine, paired with a great bang-for-the-buck (IMHO) grinder. Next machine I get will be an ultra-geeky digital debacle. This grinder I like so much I don’t see myself changing anytime soon, but it’s a hobby, so who knows.

Here’s some of my opinions:
- equipment matters to a point. Past that point buys consistency, not necessarily a better best possible shot. Just managing variance. Again, slot machine.

- More $$$ often means better build quality, but not always.

- Grinder is the most important expense, hands down. Next is machine. Then other stuff.

- Puck prep is a for real. But, this has changed a lot since the grubby hand-dances of the 90s. Baskets are better, grinders are better, machines are better. General consensus now is that distribution is king and tamp don’t really matter.

- Medium dark blends are the easiest to pull. Single origins add some variables to that. Light roasts are tricky.

- Fresh roasted beans are better (<3ish weeks)

- If you’re new I would get your gear, pick a med-dark blend you know someone’s pulled a shot you like from, and use only that bean/roast for a long time. Play around with your gear while considering all the variables in roughly this order: dose, grind, puck prep, extraction time, extraction ratio, temp, grouphead pressure, flow, etc. that’ll keep you busy for months if you’re only pulling 3-4 shots/day. It’s kept me busy for decades! It’ll also help you build your palate and match that to how small changes in your process affect what’s in the cup. Once you get that dialed, then branch out to other beans/roasts/gear.

- Ultimately, the only thing that matters is what’s in the cup. So, if it tastes good to you, you’re doing it right!

[jm2e]

Rank in order of best to worst expected shot:

1. Fresh beans, nice grinder, ground last night.
2. Nice beans, not fresh, nice grinder, fresh ground.
3. Supermarket beans, nice grinder, fresh ground.
4. Fresh beans, $100 grinder, fresh ground.


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[Slow 'n Steady]

If you just get one try each scenario: 2, 3, 1, 4

Multiple tries at each scenario: 2, 4, 3, 1

Assuming supermarket = generic Walmart bulk beans (I can get some pretty nice, local, fresh roasted beans at my local supermarket)

[retirwntm]

I may have an option to go and learn from someone who owns a shop in the city about 20 minutes from our suburban dystopia.

She’s had the shop for 10 plus years. Good reputation and she tends to hire coffee nerds to make the coffee. She’s got a collab blend with a local roaster as well.

Great chance for me to learn after all this stuff slows down but it’ll still be slower for her and I can work from her shop.

Anything I should know about or consider?


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[jm2e]

I may have an option to go and learn from someone who owns a shop in the city about 20 minutes from our suburban dystopia.

She’s had the shop for 10 plus years. Good reputation and she tends to hire coffee nerds to make the coffee. She’s got a collab blend with a local roaster as well.

Great chance for me to learn after all this stuff slows down but it’ll still be slower for her and I can work from her shop.

Anything I should know about or consider?


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There’s more than likely a quirky hot barista chick with weird but cute hair and 1 or two more face piercings than you’d normally roll with. Please bang and report back to us. Been thinking about it for years now.



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[Slow 'n Steady]

That’s a great opportunity! Commercial gear and getting to pull dozens and dozens of shots with guidance will give you a huge boost. I think more shops should do this. Great for folks who’ve been frustrated trying to rapidly learn all this at home during quarantine.

[retirwntm]

There’s more than likely a quirky hot barista chick with weird but cute hair and 1 or two more face piercings than you’d normally roll with. Please bang and report back to us. Been thinking about it for years now.



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Since it’s for the greater good, I’ll make the sacrifice. And, yes, I know that girl. She’s dangerous and I like that about her. Please begin compiling bail and or hospital bill money for me now.


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[tgapp]

Rank in order of best to worst expected shot:

1. Fresh beans, nice grinder, ground last night.
2. Nice beans, not fresh, nice grinder, fresh ground.
3. Supermarket beans, nice grinder, fresh ground.
4. Fresh beans, $100 grinder, fresh ground.


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this is actually super complicated to answer. contrary to popular opinion, fresh is not best, certainly not for espresso.

when you roast coffee, the cherries literally pop like popcorn, and they start releasing carbon dioxide. freshly roasted coffee will still be actively releasing co2, and when extracted under pressure, that co2 will become carbonic acid, and the espresso will taste gross. depending on the level of roast, espresso can take anywhere from 3 til 10 days after the roast to "peak" (finish degassing) and then it gradually declines. most espresso is best between 7 and 14 days off of the roast, but that's flexible too - i've had shots from 25+ day old coffee that was mindblowingly good.

if you have ultra fresh beans and you grind them and then let them sit, you can actually speed up this process. for example - i'm a home coffee roaster, and i usually roast on sundays. so if i roast on a sunday, and i want to know how a particular coffee is going to taste as espresso in 5-8 days or whatever, i'll grind the fresh-roasted coffee the night before, let it sit out/degas, and then pull it as a shot in the morning. if i ground the same coffee right before pulling the shot, it would be terrible, but if i let it sit out to speed up the degassing process, it'll be much better. so, if you know what you're doing, option #1 is a great call.

buying nice coffee is always going to be better than grocery story, cheap/shitty coffee, no matter how old it is. speciality grade coffee will peak in flavor and freshness sometime in the 7-14 day range, and during the gradual decline, all of the flavors average together to basic stone fruits, honey/caramel sweetness, or nutty/chocolate flavors (this of course depending on whatever the bean tasted like to begin with - those three flavors are the most "stable" and they last the longest - other flavors, like florals/berry/bright citrus typically fade after 14 days or so after roast).

the other thing with nice coffee is that any self-respecting roaster won't go too far beyond a dark medium roast; any more than that and everything tastes the same anyway - like ass - so there's no sense in doing it. shitty grocery store coffee is typically done to a vienna or light french roast (dark af), which is awful and tastes awful no matter how fresh it is - these roasts are designed to make coffee from different origins taste exactly the same no matter what (so they can switch up their supplier and save 3 cents/pound on commodity grade coffee), and it also hides defects in their green by roasting the ever living hell out of them.

the only caveat that i have is that coffee that SOUNDS fancy isn't necessarily fancy or good - just being local and fresh doesn't mean that the coffee is worth shit, even if they tell you the name of the fucking farm it came from. all coffee came from a farm, knowing the name of it doesn't tell you shit as to whether the farm is good or bad or average. "La Hacienda Esmerelda" sounds a lot like "Hacienda La Minita", but one of those is an ultra-premium, $90/10 oz bag coffee, and the other is just average.

thanks for coming to my ted talk.

[rod9301]

this is actually super complicated to answer. contrary to popular opinion, fresh is not best, certainly not for espresso.

when you roast coffee, the cherries literally pop like popcorn, and they start releasing carbon dioxide. freshly roasted coffee will still be actively releasing co2, and when extracted under pressure, that co2 will become carbonic acid, and the espresso will taste gross. depending on the level of roast, espresso can take anywhere from 3 til 10 days after the roast to "peak" (finish degassing) and then it gradually declines. most espresso is best between 7 and 14 days off of the roast, but that's flexible too - i've had shots from 25+ day old coffee that was mindblowingly good.

if you have ultra fresh beans and you grind them and then let them sit, you can actually speed up this process. for example - i'm a home coffee roaster, and i usually roast on sundays. so if i roast on a sunday, and i want to know how a particular coffee is going to taste as espresso in 5-8 days or whatever, i'll grind the fresh-roasted coffee the night before, let it sit out/degas, and then pull it as a shot in the morning. if i ground the same coffee right before pulling the shot, it would be terrible, but if i let it sit out to speed up the degassing process, it'll be much better. so, if you know what you're doing, option #1 is a great call.

buying nice coffee is always going to be better than grocery story, cheap/shitty coffee, no matter how old it is. speciality grade coffee will peak in flavor and freshness sometime in the 7-14 day range, and during the gradual decline, all of the flavors average together to basic stone fruits, honey/caramel sweetness, or nutty/chocolate flavors (this of course depending on whatever the bean tasted like to begin with - those three flavors are the most "stable" and they last the longest - other flavors, like florals/berry/bright citrus typically fade after 14 days or so after roast).

the other thing with nice coffee is that any self-respecting roaster won't go too far beyond a dark medium roast; any more than that and everything tastes the same anyway - like ass - so there's no sense in doing it. shitty grocery store coffee is typically done to a vienna or light french roast (dark af), which is awful and tastes awful no matter how fresh it is - these roasts are designed to make coffee from different origins taste exactly the same no matter what (so they can switch up their supplier and save 3 cents/pound on commodity grade coffee), and it also hides defects in their green by roasting the ever living hell out of them.

the only caveat that i have is that coffee that SOUNDS fancy isn't necessarily fancy or good - just being local and fresh doesn't mean that the coffee is worth shit, even if they tell you the name of the fucking farm it came from. all coffee came from a farm, knowing the name of it doesn't tell you shit as to whether the farm is good or bad or average. "La Hacienda Esmerelda" sounds a lot like "Hacienda La Minita", but one of those is an ultra-premium, $90/10 oz bag coffee, and the other is just average.

thanks for coming to my ted talk.

The days from roast are they with beans recu exposed to air or under vacuum?

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