espresso making mags?

[PNWbrit]

After 12 years, my DeLonghi Magnifica XS has finally died. Water no longer reaches the coffee. The machine still grinds the beans, and the pump still sucks water, but the water does not reach the ground coffee. Instead, it empties into the excess water basin. Then, the ground coffee is thrown into the waste bin while still dry and thus not caked.
In any event, I just bought a Breville Barista Express. What a disappointment, so far.

I'm pretty sure we had this exact problem with one of ours (home or cabin) and a $75 service at the local espresso repair place had it working perfectly again.

[puma]

Hello All,

We are finally ready to step it up to home espresso. I have been eyeing the Rancillo Silvia for a while. I get the impression it is a solid entry level pick that many have started with and been happy with prior to dropping big coin down the line.

Our situation:

Wife loves latte's Saturday and Sunday mornings. Sometimes Friday comes into play. We'd like to stop spending so much at coffee shops. I have wanted to get the home setup for a long time as I enjoy a good process and tweaking to improve moving forward. The wife has always been very scared to go this route because she does not believe it will be as good as the cafe. She claims she's had multiple home made lattes that simply did not measure up. My response, they did not have a good machine, and probably had someone making that was not anal about it working over time to nail it down to a science...

Questions:

1. Are my assumptions of the Rancillio Silvia correct. (Great starter)

2. Given practice and fine tuning, I WILL be able to make cafe quality lattes for the better half with this machine?

3. I would really love to not drop enormous coin prior to proving the above...do I seriously need to consider the PID version at 250 more then the entry level? Add to this, do I REALLY need to consider even going deeper here and going with the dual burner which is even more?

4. Should I throw the above away, and go with a different machine all together?

I have a tendency to over spend on many "gear" purchases. Would love input on the above. Thanks in advance. Off to get another cup of brewed coffee...ghetto, I know!

[rod9301]

Pid is pretty important.
My recommendation is get a cheap machine that makes espresso.
Lelit makes a good entry level machine around 700

Then microwave the milk and use a propeller type device to foam it.

The grinder is the most important. Get a burr grinder, pricing around 500 dollars.

I have a3000 dollar machine and a700 one and there's no difference in the taste of the espresso.



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[tgapp]

Pid is pretty important.
My recommendation is get a cheap machine that makes espresso.
Lelit makes a good entry level machine around 700

Then microwave the milk and use a propeller type device to foam it.

The grinder is the most important. Get a burr grinder, pricing around 500 dollars.

I have a3000 dollar machine and a700 one and there's no difference in the taste of the espresso.



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All good of this is good advice, and the Silvia is a fantastic machine. The limitation that the Silvia (and other similar, smaller machines have) is that they will have only one boiler to both pull a shot and to steam milk. While the espresso that a machine like a Silvia makes is every bit as good as a much more expensive machine, the workflow when making milk drinks will be...painful to say the least. What that looks like will be - steam your milk (which will take a few minutes), flush the boiler to cool it down, wait for it to come up to temp (where the PID comes in handy), pull two shots, make your milk drinks. The milkfoam from a Silvia will be very good, but not perfect.

Totally doable - and you can get good results from it - but most people who are doing lots of milk drinks get tired of the hassle. You can also do things like Rod suggested, but again, if lattes are a daily ritual, it gets old quick.

If you can afford to pony up the dough, the best, cheap, milk-drink capable machine on the market is a Lelit MaraX. That thing will quickly and easily make cafe style milk drinks with world class espresso too. The biggest difference is that it is a heat exchanger, which means that it has a HUGE boiler and then some clever electronics and a HX to regulate espresso temp. Big boiler = more steam power = better, faster milkfoam, and since it's an HX you can steam milk at the same time you pull a shot.

Downside to the MaraX is the price, but it's a buy once, cry once sort of deal. You could buy that machine and never need a different machine for the rest of your life. It's absolutely crazy how good of a value it is

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[zion zig zag]

^^^So I make the shot (double) of espresso, and then steam the milk after. No cool down period. I’ve also learned that if I start steaming milk a few seconds before the “temp ready” light comes on, that it keeps heating and I have more steam power, longer.

Amy reason my order is backwards? And anyway, despite this dance, the lattes and cappuccinos are better than Starbucks.


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[tgapp]

^^^So I make the shot (double) of espresso, and then steam the milk after. No cool down period. I’ve also learned that if I start steaming milk a few seconds before the “temp ready” light comes on, that it keeps heating and I have more steam power, longer.

Amy reason my order is backwards? And anyway, despite this dance, the lattes and cappuccinos are better than Starbucks.


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nahh that works. snobs will tell you that your espresso is getting cold (and losing crema), but if you preheat your demitasse (or use a double walled one, or both), you're fine. that's good perspective too.

sorry, I'm too far down the rabbit hole to see clearly anymore - I'm like the guy, who, when asked for a 1-ski quiver recommendation tells you that you really need three pairs of skis instead. maybe some day you'll be able to appreciate the espresso-equivalent difference between a 100 and a 115mm underfoot ski, but until then...there are lots of folks killing it on soul7s who are happy as a clam.

fwiw, I had a Silvia for a few months, loved it, and quickly realized I wanted something better for milk drinks. ironically, now I make milk drinks like 4-6 times a month, even with my super fancy machine. if I could do it all over again I would probably just get a MaraX and be done with it.

finally, if you are at all mechanically inclined, getting a well taken care of (enthusiast owned) used machine from home-barista is a smart idea. those e61 machines especially are built like little Italian tanks. It's a small wonder that the engineering and durability on those machines is as good as it is, coming from the country that brought us Fiat.

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[rod9301]

All good of this is good advice, and the Silvia is a fantastic machine. The limitation that the Silvia (and other similar, smaller machines have) is that they will have only one boiler to both pull a shot and to steam milk. While the espresso that a machine like a Silvia makes is every bit as good as a much more expensive machine, the workflow when making milk drinks will be...painful to say the least. What that looks like will be - steam your milk (which will take a few minutes), flush the boiler to cool it down, wait for it to come up to temp (where the PID comes in handy), pull two shots, make your milk drinks. The milkfoam from a Silvia will be very good, but not perfect.

Totally doable - and you can get good results from it - but most people who are doing lots of milk drinks get tired of the hassle. You can also do things like Rod suggested, but again, if lattes are a daily ritual, it gets old quick.

If you can afford to pony up the dough, the best, cheap, milk-drink capable machine on the market is a Lelit MaraX. That thing will quickly and easily make cafe style milk drinks with world class espresso too. The biggest difference is that it is a heat exchanger, which means that it has a HUGE boiler and then some clever electronics and a HX to regulate espresso temp. Big boiler = more steam power = better, faster milkfoam, and since it's an HX you can steam milk at the same time you pull a shot.

Downside to the MaraX is the price, but it's a buy once, cry once sort of deal. You could buy that machine and never need a different machine for the rest of your life. It's absolutely crazy how good of a value it is

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Actually, nuking the milk and using the foam propeller takes 1 minute, not more than steaming with a good machine

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[Yonder_River]

I have a Crossland that has an inhouse pid controller which has been good enough for me and I've been a coffee snob for a long time. You can program a preinfuse, then your shot time. I think they still retail for around $700. I steam milk first to warm it up, then pull the shot. Super quick turnaround time.

[tgapp]

I have a Crossland that has an inhouse pid controller which has been good enough for me and I've been a coffee snob for a long time. You can program a preinfuse, then your shot time. I think they still retail for around $700. I steam milk first to warm it up, then pull the shot. Super quick turnaround time.

^^ that's a smart little machine, probably the best value under $1k

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[puma]

Pid is pretty important.
My recommendation is get a cheap machine that makes espresso.
Lelit makes a good entry level machine around 700

Then microwave the milk and use a propeller type device to foam it.

The grinder is the most important. Get a burr grinder, pricing around 500 dollars.

I have a3000 dollar machine and a700 one and there's no difference in the taste of the espresso.



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Thank you for the detailed response. It was not hard, but I think you have talked me into looking for more. With regard to the Lelit MaraX, you are speaking about:

https://marax.lelit.com/index-eng.html

Looks available online:

https://comisocoffee.com/products/le...39264543866989

Anyone have experience with Comisocoffee? Other online recommendations to buy?

With regard to the grinder, I've had that for a while. (Rancilio Rocky)

[tgapp]

Thank you for the detailed response. It was not hard, but I think you have talked me into looking for more. With regard to the Lelit MaraX, you are speaking about:

https://marax.lelit.com/index-eng.html

Looks available online:

https://comisocoffee.com/products/le...39264543866989

Anyone have experience with Comisocoffee? Other online recommendations to buy?

With regard to the grinder, I've had that for a while. (Rancilio Rocky)

The machine you linked is just a standard Mara, which is VERY different. The MaraX has a very clever system of PIDs which basically completely overcome the biggest limitation of a heat exchanger machine - it's able to keep the temp at the group at a stable, preset temperature, allowing for double boiler like performance in a heat exchanger.

If I were you I would call one of the premier online shops (1st line, Prima, etc) and see if they'll give you a discount. They're usually pretty generous with non-advertised discounts:

https://www.1st-line.com/buy/lelit-m...resso-machine/

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[zion zig zag]

nahh that works. snobs will tell you that your espresso is getting cold (and losing crema), but if you preheat your demitasse (or use a double walled one, or both), you're fine. that's good perspective too.

sorry, I'm too far down the rabbit hole to see clearly anymore - I'm like the guy, who, when asked for a 1-ski quiver recommendation tells you that you really need three pairs of skis instead. maybe some day you'll be able to appreciate the espresso-equivalent difference between a 100 and a 115mm underfoot ski, but until then...there are lots of folks killing it on soul7s who are happy as a clam.

fwiw, I had a Silvia for a few months, loved it, and quickly realized I wanted something better for milk drinks. ironically, now I make milk drinks like 4-6 times a month, even with my super fancy machine. if I could do it all over again I would probably just get a MaraX and be done with it.

finally, if you are at all mechanically inclined, getting a well taken care of (enthusiast owned) used machine from home-barista is a smart idea. those e61 machines especially are built like little Italian tanks. It's a small wonder that the engineering and durability on those machines is as good as it is, coming from the country that brought us Fiat.

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Ah, makes sense on loss of heat/crema. Yeah, I'm preheating the shot glass. I didn't think the loss of crema would be a big deal since I'm just mixing with whole milk anyway, and...I'm only making lattes for my wife and she seems pretty happy with the results.

Part of me wishes I had gone with a PID machine on the front end, and then part of me feels like I have the surfing dialed enough, and am happy enough with the results that it probably doesn't matter. But yeah, that MaraX is kind the machine I drool over.

[puma]

The machine you linked is just a standard Mara, which is VERY different. The MaraX has a very clever system of PIDs which basically completely overcome the biggest limitation of a heat exchanger machine - it's able to keep the temp at the group at a stable, preset temperature, allowing for double boiler like performance in a heat exchanger.

If I were you I would call one of the premier online shops (1st line, Prima, etc) and see if they'll give you a discount. They're usually pretty generous with non-advertised discounts:

https://www.1st-line.com/buy/lelit-m...resso-machine/

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Thanks Tgapp. Looks like each of those are sold out. Looking at Comisocoffee, seems like you can pick the model. I am assuming: PRODUCT SKU: PL62X is the MaraX, but they do not change the basic page when you toggle, other than the price...

[tgapp]

Thanks Tgapp. Looks like each of those are sold out. Looking at Comisocoffee, seems like you can pick the model. I am assuming: PRODUCT SKU: PL62X is the MaraX, but they do not change the basic page when you toggle, other than the price...

ahh you're right. yeah. PL62x

idk, in today's market, i'd probably buy it - just make sure you're using a card with purchase protection, obviously.

and with regard to your grinder, you might want to look into an upgrade at some point. chances are, your rocky is getting a little dull, and it's a little dated, too. the rocky was the reference entry level grinder ~10 years ago, but a lot has changed since then. home level grinders have taken off in the last 5 years, with some astounding grinders available for not that much money (looking at you, Sette).

again - i'm biased and all, but i did spend 5 years hand grinding every shot i pulled. i still hand grind my pourover.

[claresdad]

Tons of research lead us to the Ascaso Dream PID along with a Solis grinder. Probably two weeks of figuring it out but it didn't break the bank and the taste difference to me is remarkable. We brew at least 6 individual drinks every morning. Mostly americanos but I fire up the machine about 5:45 every morning and I love the experimentation that comes with it.

[comish]

I will give you my 25yr journey into espresso. Usually Cappuccino in the morning, espresso after lunch and/or dinner. Basically as the Italians do it

Started with used Silvia/Rocky. Loved it, at first. Found it really hard to get the dang thing at the right temp. Sometimes I made great espresso, sometimes not so much. PID didn't exist then, but would have made all the difference in the world, definitely worth $250. I didn't mind the switch over for milk that much, it was just tough to get the temp right for espresso. That said, I never made microfoam like I can from any of the below machines. That could have been that the pilot needed more training and not the machine so take that with a shaker of salt since the Silvia was early in my espresso journey.

Sold it for nearly what I paid, upgraded to a used HX (Heat Exchange) machine Expobar Pulsar/continued w/ Rocky. This was a pretty huge step up and kept me happy for probably 15 years +/-. This thing is still in use at my parents house btw. So I still need to flush the boiler for a few seconds prior to pulling the shot, but it wasn't hard to find the right temp. Still no PID, but my results and consistency improved significantly. Always better than 85% of coffee shops I would say. Only the little guys that really cared could out do me, in my opinion. Frothing milk was easy and with some practice and online tutorials could make a great cappuccino.

Moved to Mammoth during Covid and the Expobar, not having PID and having the temp adjusted by pressure, the temp was way too hot at elevation and so therefore wanted another machine for Mammoth as I didn't want to adjust the pressure on the Expobar and was intrigued by PID and dual Boilers. Went way down the rabbit hole and bought Lelit Elizabeth / Eureka Mignon Silenzio grinder. This little machine is pretty slick. With PID the temp is bang on, which was super nice. I would say at sea level, the difference in the espresso and the consistency isn't all that great compared to the HX machine. At altitude, the difference was significant. Not totally in love with the Mignon Silenzio grinder. It does offer stepless grinding, but it has clogged already, where as my Rocky has never clogged. The difference in the quality of the Rocky to the Silenzio was minimal so I think you would be fine if you stayed with the Rocky. The elizabeth froth's great, more powerful than the very old at this point Expobar, but not as powerful as the next machine.

Then I saw a used Alex Duetto II for sale at home on Craigslist for $700. For that I couldn't resist so now am trying the double boiler E61 machine w/ a rotary pump. Interestingly enough I'm finding this is slightly "better" than the Lelit Elizabeth. Kinda surprised actually. We aren't talking a huge difference in espresso quality. but both my wife and I feel like it's slightly better. I have this feeling it's the rotary pump v vibration pump and how the pressure comes on, but who knows. The steaming is almost too much/too strong. I'm slowly adjusting, but it doesn't give me a whole lot time to stretch the milk before it gets too hot. This is now my primary machine, the HX machine went to my parents.

Too me, for the money, I would buy a HX machine. The jump from Silvia to the HX was the biggest jump in quality and consistency and that is just a basic HX machine, not even the MaraX suggested above which is even better since it has the PID and some algorithms.

I would stick with your Rocky for now. If the Mignon gets clogged again I will likely look for something better. I admittedly use darker oilier beans, but so far not super psyched with it. We shall see. I think you need at least a Rocky quality for espresso though. The Mignon is a solid piece of metal, but it's pretty annoying how it clogs.

I would also second the recommendation to buy a used machine. They are generally bomber and completely fixable if they do break. The Lelit Elizabeth is the only machine I bought new. Hope that helps!

[comish]

Oh yeah, I got the Mignon grinder from a shop in Italy and it arrived faster than the machine from the US shop. Go figure...

[tgapp]

agreed with comish 100% - the biggest jump is between a single boiler and a heat exchanger. the next biggest jump is between whatever and a flow control/pressure profiler, but that doesn't improve workflow (it arguably makes it worse), only espresso quality - I say whatever because you can install them on most e61 machines, including the maraX

$700 for a Duetto is a fucking steal. now add flow profiling to it .

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[puma]

Thank you for the input Comish. It sounds like it's been a fun 25 year journey! I've placed the order MaraX! 5% off. Seems fairly standard, but feels good to have secured! It's not in stock anywhere, so I am on the list. I am excited to head down this rabbit hole!!! I will have to go back and read this in better detail. Any online resources folks recommend to educate on becoming a pro here?

[tgapp]

Thank you for the input Comish. It sounds like it's been a fun 25 year journey! I've placed the order MaraX! 5% off. Seems fairly standard, but feels good to have secured! It's not in stock anywhere, so I am on the list. I am excited to head down this rabbit hole!!! I will have to go back and read this in better detail. Any online resources folks recommend to educate on becoming a pro here?

nahh it's so easy, you'll have better coffee than most coffee shops in like a month or two, and it's a ton of fun.

watch some YouTube videos on how to dial in an espresso, maybe practice tamping on a bathroom scale until you learn what 30-40lbs of force feels like.

send me a note when you get your machine, and I'll put a bag of coffee in the mail for you

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[tgapp]

for you mags in canuckistan, this is truly an insanely good deal on my #1 pick for a new espresso machine in 2021:

https://www.home-barista.com/buysell...nd-t73893.html

[retirwntm]

LA NUOVA ERA CUADRA COMMERCIAL ESPRESSO MACHINE – V3

https://www.myespressoshop.com/produ...sso-machine-v3

Ok so my friend who owns a shop says this is the one for home for me. FWIW she owns an awesome and very successful shop in a hipster central area in Philly that we used to live in. She is good at owning a shop and being a successful business woman. I don’t think she’s full on coffee nerd slash aficionado. Her shop has the crazy la marzocco super expensive machine and all the crazy grinders etc.

Thoughts?

My Gaggia classic that I’ve had for 6-7 yrs. isn’t pulling water through the group head. Seems like it could be solenoid valve issue and is fixable according to YouTube but maybe it’s time to upgrade.


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[tgapp]

LA NUOVA ERA CUADRA COMMERCIAL ESPRESSO MACHINE – V3

https://www.myespressoshop.com/produ...sso-machine-v3

Ok so my friend who owns a shop says this is the one for home for me.

Thoughts?

My Gaggia classic that I’ve had for 6-7 yrs. isn’t pulling water through the group head. Seems like it could be solenoid valve issue and is fixable according to YouTube but maybe it’s time to upgrade.


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It's not a bad machine, that's for sure. Checks all the right boxes as far as a heat exchanger e61 machine goes. Well built, 1.8L boiler, etc. e61 heat exchanger machines are ubiquitous and common and good; the workhorses of the espresso world. La Nuova Era is a lesser known brand, but I reckon if you take care of it it'll last forever.

I still stand by my recommendation for a Lelit MaraX. It's essentially the same architecture of a machine, but with some extremely clever internals to overcome the biggest limitations of a heat exchanger based e61. I guess it comes down to what your tolerance for/interest in gadgetry comes down to. The Nuova Era is like if Ford continually re-released a late-70's f250 every year; the MaraX is like a new car. Nothing wrong with either really.

Also obligatory upgrade your grinder. Always upgrade your grinder.

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[retirwntm]

Dude. You can spend my money like no other. I got that crazy hand grinder you told me to get. It’s awesome and I like the am exercise. Mara X seems in the same class and I remember looking at that up thread.

Anything else to consider? Does it matter that I’m ok with the breville milk frother on the milk side? That thing was like $150 and was working for me pretty well.


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[tgapp]

Nahh I mean the thing is upgrades on a machine buy you convenience but not quality. Your Gaggia makes great espresso.

If all I cared about was quality of espresso I'd get a Flair 58. Especially if you already have a milk steamer. Otherwise for all around use a MaraX is a buy once, cry once sort of deal. Upgrades past that point don't really exist.

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