the answer to "WTF is wrong with my boots?"

[swissiphic]

so maybe a combo of boot angles plus binding angles.

add a shim/sock and make the boot more forward and see if that is better or worse, and do more of what ever makes it better

then play with bindings if needed

Something I've been fiddling with to see how changing binding ramp angle changes ski feel, joy and bliss, is to add a spacer under heel of boot in regular downhill bindings to increase ramp if bindings are pretty flat. If skiing on dynafits for the day, slide heel shelf of boot under the pins and use a chunk of rubber tire as a spacer so it's a compression fit but doesn't introduce too much tension. Lock the toes and hope for the best. Fun to compare/contrast in real time/relatively quick adjust.

Kinda come to the conclusion, for me, sure would be nice to have shift on the fly adjustable ramp...with same boots, bindings, skis, I found that flatter is better for some conditions, a bit steeper was better for other conditions...especially when adding or subtracting a heavier daypack for ski touring.

It'd be kinda nice if, for example, a Dynafit Vertical St heel piece featured a housing that could be adjusted vertically on the post to tweak the ramp. A bit easier with alpine bindings with good heel elasticity just by placing a spacer under the heel and living with the potential compromise of altered release characteristics...i just crank up the dins a bit.

[mntlion]

Something I've been fiddling with to see how changing binding ramp angle changes ski feel, joy and bliss, is to add a spacer under heel of boot in regular downhill bindings to increase ramp if bindings are pretty flat. If skiing on dynafits for the day, slide heel shelf of boot under the pins and use a chunk of rubber tire as a spacer so it's a compression fit but doesn't introduce too much tension. Fun to compare/contrast in real time/relatively quick adjust.

Kinda come to the conclusion, for me, sure would be nice to have shift on the fly adjustable ramp...with same boots, bindings, skis, I found that flatter is better for some conditions, a bit steeper was better for other conditions...especially when adding or subtracting a heavier daypack for ski touring.

#metoo.

I had the same ski and boot, but swapped from adrenalines to kingpins and had to add a 4mm shim under the binding heel to make it "feel" right..

its a combo (trial and error) of boot F lean, boot ramp angle, and binding angle. And I think (guessing) that it should be played with in that order, but then keep going back to double check the results...

[EWG]

Yes, they are forward, but you can get that boot changed to be more upright if that is what you want. I assume you have removed any cuff / F lean shims already?

or buy a new version of that boot that will be more upright to start with

Yup, no shims. I wouldn't mind playing with the lean angle a bit before I start shopping, just because I know the boots work really well so I would just be messing with a single setting.

Do I need to go in to a fitter to mess with angle, or can I do it myself in more of a tinkering mode? I'd love to screw around with it a bit: make it match some on-the-market now boots, mess with it up/down a bit, ski it, see how it feels different, etc, but that's a bit above my pay grade.

Also, do they publish forward lean angles so I can compare?

[mntlion]

Yup, no shims. I wouldn't mind playing with the lean angle a bit before I start shopping, just because I know the boots work really well so I would just be messing with a single setting.

Do I need to go in to a fitter to mess with angle, or can I do it myself in more of a tinkering mode? I'd love to screw around with it a bit: make it match some on-the-market now boots, mess with it up/down a bit, ski it, see how it feels different, etc, but that's a bit above my pay grade.

Also, do they publish forward lean angles so I can compare?

making a boot more upright is a permanent thing, so you can't really test it. And best to leave that to a shop to do it
https://www.southernski.com/toe-jam-...stretcher.html
and some other ways I have played with tools too

I bet if you heated teh upper cuff in hot water for 5 min, and put the boot on, and flexed back (upright) HARD while it cools, you would get some effect as well

F lean is NOT published (or foot ramp angle) as
1) no one cares
2) it changes with boot size (well, the ramp does, as a smaller boot has the same toe/heel height, but in a shorter distance)
3) the boot might have a fixed F lean, but a bigger diameter calf will push the skier forwad more (chicken legs can stand more upright, cankles are more forward)
4) see point 1

[EWG]

F lean is NOT published (or foot ramp angle) as
1) no one cares
4) see point 1

Haha ok I get it. I'll stop worrying about it and just go find a boot at some point. Thanks for the schoolin.

[swissiphic]

its a combo (trial and error) of boot F lean, boot ramp angle, and binding angle. And I think (guessing) that it should be played with in that order, but then keep going back to double check the results...

Thanx for the tip on the order of steps for tweaking angles.

Now, if somebody could just come up with some A.I. powered computer program that considers bodyweight, height, mass distribution, limb length, joint positions, foot/lower leg shape/volume and then you input what boots you wanna use, footbeds, bindings, skis....plug in all the data and get an instant calculation on optimum ski length, binding position, binding ramp, boot ramp, boot forward lean, boot flex mods, rocker profile adjustments, etc....

On second thought, the computer would probably just spit out the number 42.

But hey, as computer and A.I. tech stuff advances, wonder if something like this will be available to the public within our skiing lifetimes?

[Sashko]

Hi guys. I have a Salomon MTN lab in 25.5. My feet are 25.1 unweighted, 25.4 weighted. 96 width. Medium to low instep, skinny ankles and calves. I bought them second hand last spring and didn’t ski them until yesterday. Day before yesterday I visited local bootfitter in Chamonix. He checked the boots and my feet and said it would be hard to make them one boot quiver, but probably good as a ski tour only boot. I decided to go this way, as I already had a good downhill ski boot.
We changed liners to Sidas CRT Thermo (the sickest tour liner that was available in store) and added superfeet green footboards (the thickest).
The first day of skiing it was fine, but we skied ice instead of snow (typical Brevent condition, sorry frenchies). I noticed some heel lift and a slight movement in forefoot. But coming from 25.5 dalbello krypton (my previous boot) I thought it wouldn’t be a problem in soft snow. Guys, I was wrong. Today we had a 30cm of fresh snow. I realized that I couldn’t trust my boots - turns were very slow, I couldn’t drive the ski from the tips. Boots were overtighten - I unbuckled them on every lift.

Is there any possibility to make the boots fit better and somehow reduce heel lift?

Skis - zag s-104
Socks - compression Tekko merino (a light cushion on shin only)

I will try them tomorrow with my smartwool ski light socks (that are thicker) , but I’m unsure if it would change anything.

[mntlion]

Thanx for the tip on the order of steps for tweaking angles.

Now, if somebody could just come up with some A.I. powered computer program that considers bodyweight, height, mass distribution, limb length, joint positions, foot/lower leg shape/volume and then you input what boots you wanna use, footbeds, bindings, skis....plug in all the data and get an instant calculation on optimum ski length, binding position, binding ramp, boot ramp, boot forward lean, boot flex mods, rocker profile adjustments, etc....

On second thought, the computer would probably just spit out the number 42.

But hey, as computer and A.I. tech stuff advances, wonder if something like this will be available to the public within our skiing lifetimes?

just buy the red boots.

[mntlion]

Hi guys. I have a Salomon MTN lab in 25.5. My feet are 25.1 unweighted, 25.4 weighted. 96 width. Medium to low instep, skinny ankles and calves. I bought them second hand last spring and didn’t ski them until yesterday. Day before yesterday I visited local bootfitter in Chamonix. He checked the boots and my feet and said it would be hard to make them one boot quiver, but probably good as a ski tour only boot. I decided to go this way, as I already had a good downhill ski boot.
We changed liners to Sidas CRT Thermo (the sickest tour liner that was available in store) and added superfeet green footboards (the thickest).
The first day of skiing it was fine, but we skied ice instead of snow (typical Brevent condition, sorry frenchies). I noticed some heel lift and a slight movement in forefoot. But coming from 25.5 dalbello krypton (my previous boot) I thought it wouldn’t be a problem in soft snow. Guys, I was wrong. Today we had a 30cm of fresh snow. I realized that I couldn’t trust my boots - turns were very slow, I couldn’t drive the ski from the tips. Boots were overtighten - I unbuckled them on every lift.

Is there any possibility to make the boots fit better and somehow reduce heel lift?

Skis - zag s-104
Socks - compression Tekko merino (a light cushion on shin only)

I will try them tomorrow with my smartwool ski light socks (that are thicker) , but I’m unsure if it would change anything.

long answer:
your boots are too big (maybe ok in length, but too much volume)
a thicker (sicker?) liner will help a thicker footbed will help, a thicker sock will help. But if that doesn't help enough a narrower fitting boot is the correct answer, or keep this for mellow easy tours.

quick answer:
your boots are too big

[TAFKALVS]

Arches of feet feel all crampy when skiing powder the first 3-4 runs normally. New thing this year.

Boots are a 1 finger shell fit.
Liners probably have 150 days on them.
Shells around 75 days.

Has my foot changed shape? It visually looks wider than it used to. Also I suppose my liners are toast since I have to buckle the boots much tighter than I used to. Perhaps that's the root issue.


1) BOW with the buckles tighter or looser?
better with boots looser but less control. Liners are getting packed out.

2) BOW with thinner or thicker socks?
unsure, only use ultralight socks due to tight boot fit.

3) BOW with any footbeds (custom, stock, none, etc)?
using same footbeds I've owned for 6-7 years.

4) BOW skiing, standing, or feet un-weighted (hanging off a chair lift)?
No difference once cramps start.

5) BOW thru out the day (and when does the pain start?)
Feet seem to relax and stop hurting after about 30 -40 minutes

6) BOW on the first vs the third day?
no difference, on day 15.

7) BOW on harder or easier terrain?
worse on difficult terrain

8) BOW with the power straps (velcro straps) tighter or looser?
no difference.

9) BOW if you do any particular movements, or actions?
better if I completely unbuckle boots and stretch calves.

10) Any medical, health, or weight changes since you used them last?
nothing major. lost about 15 lbs.

[EWG]

just buy the red boots.

I did. They work great. Good advice.

[2FUNKY]

Arches of feet feel all crampy when skiing powder the first 3-4 runs normally. New thing this year.

Boots are a 1 finger shell fit.
Liners probably have 150 days on them.
Shells around 75 days.

Has my foot changed shape? It visually looks wider than it used to. Also I suppose my liners are toast since I have to buckle the boots much tighter than I used to. Perhaps that's the root issue.


1)BOW with the buckles tighter or looser?
better with boots looser but less control. Liners are getting packed out.

2)BOW with thinner or thicker socks?
unsure, only use ultralight socks due to tight boot fit.

3)BOW with any footbeds (custom, stock, none, etc)?
using same footbeds I've owned for 6-7 years.

4)BOW skiing, standing, or feet un-weighted (hanging off a chair lift)?
No difference once cramps start.

5)BOW thru out the day (and when does the pain start?)
Feet seem to relax and stop hurting after about 30 -40 minutes

6)BOW on the first vs the third day?
no difference, on day 15.

7)BOW on harder or easier terrain?
worse on difficult terrain

8)BOW with the power straps (velcro straps) tighter or looser?
no difference.

9)BOW if you do any particular movements, or actions?
better if I completely unbuckle boots and stretch calves.

10)Any medical, health, or weight changes since you used them last?
nothing major. lost about 15 lbs.

Sounds like you’re scrunching your toes instead of relaxing them. I find myself doing this the first couple days of the season until I train my brain to knock it off. Exact symptoms are arch cramps/pain and calf tightness.

[mntlion]

Arches of feet feel all crampy when skiing powder the first 3-4 runs normally. New thing this year.

Boots are a 1 finger shell fit.
Liners probably have 150 days on them.
Shells around 75 days.

Has my foot changed shape? It visually looks wider than it used to. Also I suppose my liners are toast since I have to buckle the boots much tighter than I used to. Perhaps that's the root issue.


1) BOW with the buckles tighter or looser?
better with boots looser but less control. Liners are getting packed out.

2) BOW with thinner or thicker socks?
unsure, only use ultralight socks due to tight boot fit.

3) BOW with any footbeds (custom, stock, none, etc)?
using same footbeds I've owned for 6-7 years.

4) BOW skiing, standing, or feet un-weighted (hanging off a chair lift)?
No difference once cramps start.

5) BOW thru out the day (and when does the pain start?)
Feet seem to relax and stop hurting after about 30 -40 minutes

6) BOW on the first vs the third day?
no difference, on day 15.

7) BOW on harder or easier terrain?
worse on difficult terrain

8) BOW with the power straps (velcro straps) tighter or looser?
no difference.

9) BOW if you do any particular movements, or actions?
better if I completely unbuckle boots and stretch calves.

10) Any medical, health, or weight changes since you used them last?
nothing major. lost about 15 lbs.

Ya, liners might be toast after 150 days, and packed out so you have to over tighten then shells?

Do you feel any more movement and is that
a) up and down
b) side to side
c) pronation roll

1) the over tightening is casusing the cramping (crushing the foot)

2) as said above, you are clawing to get control. (cramping the foot)

solutions:
1) add a VERY thin (1-2mm) footbed under the custom (maybe 3/4 to give the toes wiggle room, but midfoot and back is tighter
2) new liners
3) red boots

[Sashko]

long answer:
your boots are too big (maybe ok in length, but too much volume)
a thicker (sicker?) liner will help a thicker footbed will help, a thicker sock will help. But if that doesn't help enough a narrower fitting boot is the correct answer, or keep this for mellow easy tours.

quick answer:
your boots are too big

Yeah, thicker) it was phone autocorrect.

Just wanted to check if anything could be done before purchasing new boot.

[mntlion]

Yeah, thicker) it was phone autocorrect.

Just wanted to check if anything could be done before purchasing new boot.

try a few of the suggestions first, but odds are you are buying new low volume boots

[gregL]

try a few of the suggestions first, but odds are you are buying new low volume boots

The MTN Lab/S/Lab MTN is an interesting fit. Fairly narrow and pointy in the toe, quite loose in the ankle and heel - the opposite of the alpine line (i.e. X/Max). If you have a narrow ankle/heel I would suggest the Hawx Ultra XTD or Tecnica Zero G Tour Pro as better alternatives in that weight class, though there aren't really that many options.

PS The downside of a boot with a reduced cuff diameter like the Hawx Ultra is it makes entry and exit much harder, though they ski great.

[Sashko]

I ended up buying atomics in 24.5 with custom footbeds. Much better fit = more pleasant skiing experience

But still ski worse than my downhill boot (krypton 2) or I’m not used to overlap design.

[waltonhockey05]

Any suggestions for reputable bootfitters around SW/mid-Ohio? In the market for new boots and would prefer to go to a local shop since most of my skiing will be done here rather than out west.

I usually take a trip west each year, but am hesitant in getting fitted out there due to limited ability to make modifications. Any suggestions?

[gregL]

But still ski worse than my downhill boot (krypton 2) or I’m not used to overlap design.

Could be losing ~900 grams per foot?

[XavierD]

I ended up buying atomics in 24.5 with custom footbeds. Much better fit = more pleasant skiing experience

But still ski worse than my downhill boot (krypton 2) or I’m not used to overlap design.

Hawx XTD? Yeah, it doesn’t ski anywhere near as well as a KR2, or any other 2kg alpine boot. Even the Lupo Carbon team doesn’t ski as well despite being stiffer.

[californiagrown]

I have SX120 boots with a power wrap liner that fits very well. I have supination in both ankles.

The muscle on the outside of my right shin/ankle gets badly fatigued when i buckle the top of the shell down to where i want it. Weird that my left leg doenst have this problem. Any suggestions to help mitigate this issue?

[mntlion]

Any suggestions for reputable bootfitters around SW/mid-Ohio? In the market for new boots and would prefer to go to a local shop since most of my skiing will be done here rather than out west.

I usually take a trip west each year, but am hesitant in getting fitted out there due to limited ability to make modifications. Any suggestions?

Dont know anyone, maybe ask your local race team? they usually know someone

getting work done on a trip is a GOOD bet, as you can ski/adjust etc, plus odds are more selection and more knowledgeable staff

[mntlion]

I have SX120 boots with a power wrap liner that fits very well. I have supination in both ankles.

The muscle on the outside of my right shin/ankle gets badly fatigued when i buckle the top of the shell down to where i want it. Weird that my left leg doenst have this problem. Any suggestions to help mitigate this issue?

the order of adjusting / playing with things is

1) a good foot bed

2) boot upper cuff

assuming you have a good footbed, try shimming that to the inside or outside wtih a 2mm shim (popstickle stick under the footbed, or on the boot board)

then play with the upper cuff to both inside and out.

see what feels better

[TAFKALVS]

loosening my instep buckles plus making an effort to relax the feet has fixed the cramping issue

[smooth operator]

Not really worth a new topic so I'll just put it here:

I have a second hand Lange ZA in size 25, yet inside the upper cuff it says 26/27. Do I have a frankenboot or is it normal that the cuff is shared over 3 sizes?