the answer to "WTF is wrong with my boots?"

[Sashko]

A liitle background. I'm from a poor country in Eastern Europe. CIS actually. Skiing culture here is in early development stages. Do we have any bootfitters? I guess not much. May be some secret guys who work only with high level pro athletes. But I know only 2 guys in our whole country (lucky me - both in my city) who work with average skiers. I'm not saying they're bad or good. I just give you a number, so you could understand what's going on here.
My feet are the second part of the problem. Brannock device shows 253mm for my foot. And shown last is 95mm. Skinny calves, medium-to-low instep, one foot has medium arch, other - low arch. Quite average feet in other aspects.

Ski shops don't sell men's shoes smaller than 26.0. And I can only buy boots online or preorder right size from local retailers.

I ski almost 6 years. freeride and sometimes park. Started with Salomon SPK 90 Ski boot 2012 in 26.0. After first season I stop using them because I finally understood they were too big. Even thick footbeds didn't help. After that I bought Full Tilt tom wallish in 25.5. Used them almost one season. At the end of that season I wanted tighter fit. Also I didn't like FT buckle system. So my next boots were Dalbello Kr 2 Fusion ID 2013 in 25.0. I was quite happy with them. Also I didn't feel that boot stops my progress. But this season I started to ski more aggressively I noticed that boot doesn't instantly transfer my moves to ski. After analysing articles 'HOW TO CHOOSE YOUR BOOT' - I decided to check shell fit. Shell fit was not as good as I expected - 25-27 mm. Accidentally next day I saw a very good deal on Dalbello Kr 2 Pro ID in 24.0. I ended up buying them (shell size is still 24.5 and intuition liners available only in full sizes - so doesn't matter - AFAIK). Initial shell size check indicates that I have 13-15mm between hell and shell and almost 1mm for the width.

Next step I want to do is visit bootfitter. He will check if we should do anything or it was a bad idea and only waste of money. But here's where all my questions appears. I want to make these boots as good fit as I can. One of ways is to make a custom footbeds. My bootfiiter doesn't make them( But I can make them in one ski shop. They offer only Sidas with latest models from 2012 year.
1 Are they worth 70-90$? I'm asking because anything can extremely change in 6 years.
2 What size should I go? S (23.5-24.5) or M (25-26.5)
3 What model should I choose (Sidas Custom Ski 2012 67$, Sidas Custom Ski Race 2011 77$, Sidas Custom Ski Pro 2011 $82/2010 $86, Sidas Custom Prem 2011 90$). What do you think is better for my needs?
2 I called the shop asking how footbeds are made. They said that I must bring my boots with me. But liners aren't backed yet. Also I thought I must make footbeds at first. Then cook my liners with them. Them punch anything that still bothers me. But with their approach I must cook liners first, then make footbeds. Then what? Cook liners again? Could you please tell me how this should be done right way? PS I haven't visit my bootfitter yet - because seller fucked up with packaging and forget to include addition tongues, insoles and spoilers. Waiting for them.

Also knowing all info above
4 what boots could you recommend me for ski touring? what models in what sizes should I check and try if I will have any possibility. I plan to use them with tecton or king pin or salo shift. I have no previous experience with tech bindings and boots with walk mode.

Thanx for your help guys. Sorry for my bad english.

P.S. No, I can't visit Europe to buy boots only (at least for now). Also I can still face same problem - lack of needed sizes. I tried several shops 2 years ago during my ski trip to Sankt Anton in Austria, and they didn't have my sizes.

P.S.S. I have questions about following:

8) You are loosening the buckles if you are not skiing (while standing, on lifts, etc)

I don't understand - should I loose my buckles or not while not skiing?

9) You are not skiing all day in new boots? They need time to break in

Should I ski all day in new boots?

[gregL]

A 13-15mm fit in a Krypton 98mm shell is likely as good as you will find (everyone makes a high end 24/24.5 low volume shell, but few retailers buy them). If you are good with a 3-piece boot design (it seems you are used to them), I say go for it.

The regular SIDAS Custom Ski is a great footbed, though it should be posted for stability and I doubt $67 includes that. The other models you mention are reinforced versions of the Custom Ski (additional laminates for stiffness) and appropriate for those with very mobile arches or severe pronation issues. IMO, they should also be posted or have a heel stabilizer added. The SIDAS vacuum system is versatile and can yield excellent results, but as with any custom footbed system, the skill of the bootfitter is critical.

Your bootfitter should pick the size to get, but it's always safer to get a size longer and just cut off the extra - they tend to shrink some if you heat them in an oven, less so if you use the vacuum heater SIDAS provides.

Normally you want the footbed you will be using in the liner when heat molding, since adding the footbed changes your position in the shell. If your bootfitter says otherwise, I would be less than confident in their level of expertise.

What is CIS?

[margotron]

some surprise geopolitical info in this thread

[gregL]

What is CIS?

Sorry, easy to Google and find out: "Commonwealth of Independent States"

[Sashko]

First of all. Thanx a lot for your reply.

The regular SIDAS Custom Ski is a great footbed, though it should be posted for stability and I doubt $67 includes that.

could you please clarify this? what does mean posted? and why isn't this included in price?

The SIDAS vacuum system is versatile and can yield excellent results, but as with any custom footbed system, the skill of the bootfitter is critical.

I understand this. Guy in ski shop says he's got some experience with it. But I asked him - whether he uses any custom footbeds - and his answer was - NO. This made me thinking if he really knows his job as he's saying.

Normally you want the footbed you will be using in the liner when heat molding, since adding the footbed changes your position in the shell. If your bootfitter says otherwise, I would be less than confident in their level of expertise.

May be we had some misunderstanding during my call. I will try to speak with that bootfitter again.

My bootfitter - the guy who helped me with my previous boots - doesn't do any custom footbeds. Unfortunately clients are not willing to buy them. So he doesn't see any point to invest in needed equipment to provide such service. But he has more overall experience in bootfitting and many people are satisfied with results they achieve after working with him. And he says that I can do easily without any custom footbeds. What do you think about this?

Also. could you please help with last question about ski-tour?

and again - thanx a lot!

[gregL]

Posting means attaching a layer of cork, foam or rubber to the underside of the footbed after it's molded and trimmed to size to add stability, cushion and/or stiffness. It is an important step in the construction for most bootfitters, and though SIDAS like to say the Pro and Race don't require it, I like to post them anyway. (The thicker SIDAS footbeds can be ground flat at the heel). I don't know for a fact that posting isn't included in the prices you saw, but in the US posted SIDAS footbeds typically cost between $150 and $250.

Not everyone needs a custom footbed - if your foot/arch matches one of the "trim-to-fit" models (SIDAS sells the "3 Feet" series) well in terms of height and shape, you can save money by using one of them. A "good match," like most other things, is subject to interpretation. If your local bootfitter doesn't do custom footbeds you may need to go this route anyway, since molding and finishing them is likely not something you can do at home.

Touring boots are another subject worthy of hours of study, you should read up on them. If you are set on getting the Kingpin or Tecton (never heard of Salo Swift), I would assume you will want to rule out the ultra light class of boots (under 1200 grams per boot, usually with a shortened sole that won't work well with either binding). In the mid-weight class, there aren't many true low volume fits - probably the closest are the Salmon MTN Lab (now called the S-Lab MTN) and Atomic Hawx Ultra XTD, which both have a 98mm forefoot. They are both considerably taller over the instep and looser around the heel than the Krypton last. The other big sellers like the Scarpa Maestrale/Maestrale RS and La Sportiva Spectre will feel quite roomy if a Krypton Pro fits you well.

As for size, most people are willing to accept a more relaxed fit than in their alpine boots. A 25mm shell fit is normally pretty loose for an alpine boot but fine for most touring boots. People often go up one shell size for touring - to make a 13mm shell fit work in a touring boot you will have to have a great fit around the ankle, excellent footbed, and maybe a high tolerance for pain (or leave more buckles fastened while skinning, which reduces range of motion).

By the way, where do you ski and where do you plan to tour?

[gregL]

Salomon SHIFT?

[Sashko]

Posting means attaching a layer of cork, foam or rubber to the underside of the footbed after it's molded and trimmed to size to add stability, cushion and/or stiffness. It is an important step in the construction for most bootfitters, and though SIDAS like to say the Pro and Race don't require it, I like to post them anyway. (The thicker SIDAS footbeds can be ground flat at the heel). I don't know for a fact that posting isn't included in the prices you saw, but in the US posted SIDAS footbeds typically cost between $150 and $250.

Not everyone needs a custom footbed - if your foot/arch matches one of the "trim-to-fit" models (SIDAS sells the "3 Feet" series) well in terms of height and shape, you can save money by using one of them. A "good match," like most other things, is subject to interpretation. If your local bootfitter doesn't do custom footbeds you may need to go this route anyway, since molding and finishing them is likely not something you can do at home.

Thanks for this clarification. I will think about going with pre molded footbeds.

Salomon SHIFT?

yeah. sorry. I meant Salomon Shift. lol

Touring boots are another subject worthy of hours of study, you should read up on them. If you are set on getting the Kingpin or Tecton (never heard of Salo Swift), I would assume you will want to rule out the ultra light class of boots (under 1200 grams per boot, usually with a shortened sole that won't work well with either binding). In the mid-weight class, there aren't many true low volume fits - probably the closest are the Salmon MTN Lab (now called the S-Lab MTN) and Atomic Hawx Ultra XTD, which both have a 98mm forefoot. They are both considerably taller over the instep and looser around the heel than the Krypton last. The other big sellers like the Scarpa Maestrale/Maestrale RS and La Sportiva Spectre will feel quite roomy if a Krypton Pro fits you well.

what about dynafit vulcan and new dalbello lupo ax?
Do MTN Lab and MTN Explore have same last?
Also I had an opportunity to try Hawx Ultra XTD 100. But I judge boot's fit by alpine means. And it seemed they would be quite loose after one season. But again - may be it's ok for touring boot.

As for size, most people are willing to accept a more relaxed fit than in their alpine boots. A 25mm shell fit is normally pretty loose for an alpine boot but fine for most touring boots. People often go up one shell size for touring - to make a 13mm shell fit work in a touring boot you will have to have a great fit around the ankle, excellent footbed, and maybe a high tolerance for pain (or leave more buckles fastened while skinning, which reduces range of motion).

To sum up - with touring boot it's better to go with my conventional shoe size - 25/25.5 shell size?

By the way, where do you ski and where do you plan to tour?

I ski in Europe (Alps and Carpathian mountains) and in Georgia. Same for touring.

[gregL]

what about dynafit vulcan and new dalbello lupo ax?

Both are good boots. Vulcan is medium volume ankle and heel, low instep, fairly wide and tall toe box. Lupo AX is pretty roomy everywhere, not what you want if a Krypton fits you.

Do MTN Lab and MTN Explore have same last?

Yes, the lowers are the same but the spine in the rear is narrower and the cuff lower in the Explore, also different power straps.

To sum up - with touring boot it's better to go with my conventional shoe size - 25/25.5 shell size?

Not necessarily, but many people go a size larger in their touring boots. A 13-15mm shell fit is pretty aggressive for a boot you will be skinning in, but not impossible. You will need to stabilize your foot so it doesn't move fore/aft in the boot even with the top buckles undone. Usually it helps to have a skilled bootfitter to help you do this.

[Sashko]

So I should add these boots to my radar in 25.5 and 24.5 size shell (but prefer bigger size):
1. Salomon MTN LAB/EXPLORE
2. Atomic HAWX Ultra XTD
3. Dynafit Vulcan

if it possible try before buy.
Also in case I missed with sizing are these boots easy to make a little longer? I saw your example with salomon mtn lab stretched to +1 full size. What about hawx ultra and vulcan?

Thanx again Greg for you help.


P.S. What about lasts of Dalbello Lupo Factory ID and Lupo 130C? How similar are they to krypton's last?

[mntlion]

thanks for adding and helping with this thread GregL. Good to have more ideas, opinions, and knowledge

[gregL]

Also in case I missed with sizing are these boots easy to make a little longer? I saw your example with salomon mtn lab stretched to +1 full size. What about hawx ultra and vulcan?

Even though all three boots are Grilamid, the formulas are different. The MTN Lab punches extremely well for length, the Hawx Ultra XTD 130 is difficult due to tougher plastic and sloping shape in toebox, Vulcan is in between. Again, it depends on your bootfitter and what methods they have worked out for toe length punches.

PS The 120 and 110 flex Hawx Ultra XTD's may be easier to punch than the 130, the alpine versions of all the Hawx Ultras (including the white 130) are easy to lengthen.

[gregL]

P.S. What about lasts of Dalbello Lupo Factory ID and Lupo 130C? How similar are they to krypton's last?

They are all supposed to share the same 98mm last, but the Factory feels looser on my foot, probably due to the lighter liner. Haven't tried on the 130C.

[Rossymcg]

shell check question
15mm lenght but he outside of the foot is in contact with the shell and so is the bunion bit(I don't have bunion but don't know what that part of the foot is called?) this is with my foot bed in the shell and stood in a good skiing stance. would I need more punching? already been ground and had some punching but only had about 10 days in these liners

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[mntlion]

You need more room if it still hurts

[Rossymcg]

You need more room if it still hurts

that's what I was thinking but boot fitter seems to think I've got loads of space already.

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[Rossymcg]

how long would you expect it to take to pack out and in all reality how much extra room once it has packed out?

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[mntlion]

how long would you expect it to take to pack out and in all reality how much extra room once it has packed out?

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5-10 day to pack out.

have you skied the boots the way they are? thin socks? buckles loose?

[Rossymcg]

5-10 day to pack out.

have you skied the boots the way they are? thin socks? buckles loose?

I only ever wear thin socks as in see through silk. bottom 2 buckles just there for show I don't have any tension on them other than enough to stop them rattling about. top 2 don't really need mega cranking up as ankle fits lovely in the heal pocket, bit like a fist up sophie

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[mntlion]

I only ever wear thin socks as in see through silk. bottom 2 buckles just there for show I don't have any tension on them other than enough to stop them rattling about. top 2 don't really need mega cranking up as ankle fits lovely in the heal pocket, bit like a fist up sophie

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if they still hurt you now, sounds like you need a bit more room

[Rossymcg]

if they still hurt you now, sounds like you need a bit more room

I'm guessing I do but the boot fitter is certain I don't. apparently he knows you

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[mntlion]

I'm guessing I do but the boot fitter is certain I don't. apparently he knows you

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oh boy, Thats NEVER a good sign that "he knows me"

[jgoldsmith729]

Have a set of earlier Lange XT130LV’s. Have done a decent amount of work to them, but have never been able to get them really dialed it. Kept thinking I was getting a little heal lift, but after reading marshal o’s review on Blister as well as one other I think the issue is due to space between the walk/ski mode piece that allows for play (fore/aft) when in ski mode. Headed to japan in a few and thinking about taking my older Nordica blowers...

Any thoughts on ways to easily take away that slop?


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[mntlion]

usually play in a walk/ski mode is more an upper cuff rattling around (shin can move for/aft) and you can feel it by moving the boot

heel lift is when skiing and your heel lifts (usually vertically) inside the boot when turning. (and might be solved by a 3-5mm thick heel lift, or some "L" pads)

make sure you know what problem you are trying to solve?

[gregL]

Headed to japan in a few and thinking about taking my older Nordica blowers...

A few days? Weeks? And you're just thinking about dealing with your non-functional boots now?

Put your boots on and click into your skis on the carpet. Turn down the sound from the TV. If you hear a noise, it's likely from the walk mechanism. If you don't it's likely your heel slipping. If you can't feel your heel slipping you're wearing too thick a sock.