the answer to "WTF is wrong with my boots?"

[jgoldsmith729]

usually play in a walk/ski mode is more an upper cuff rattling around (shin can move for/aft) and you can feel it by moving the boot

heel lift is when skiing and your heel lifts (usually vertically) inside the boot when turning. (and might be solved by a 3-5mm thick heel lift, or some "L" pads)

make sure you know what problem you are trying to solve?

Very familiar with heel lift. I’ve dealt with it in nearly every boot due to my narrow heel and wider forefoot. I have never been thrilled with my XT130’s as they took a decent amount of work to get locked in, and then still had trouble getting a progressive flex - I would over-tighten the top two buckles and then the flex would be negatively effected.

As I mentioned in my initial post, I recently read the Blister review http://blistergearreview.com/gear-re...ge-xt-130-lv-2 and learned the issue I was trying to deal with was likely due to this space which is apparent on my boots. It has ~10mm of play when flexed. If you guys have any helpful modification ideas, let me know.


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

[jgoldsmith729]

A few days? Weeks? And you're just thinking about dealing with your non-functional boots now?

Put your boots on and click into your skis on the carpet. Turn down the sound from the TV. If you hear a noise, it's likely from the walk mechanism. If you don't it's likely your heel slipping. If you can't feel your heel slipping you're wearing too thick a sock.

I don’t have the luxury of getting dialed in much ahead of time these days based on work and current location (TX). I did some research and found that review posted above where they noted the slop in the ski/walk mode. I’d love to make them work, but they’ve never felt nearly as good (stiff, zero heel movement, and smooth flex). The issues I was having with the boot (felt as though I could NEVER lose forward pressure as when I hit variable snow I would get bucked from what felt like a small amount of heel lift) now make sense.

Been through too many boots to count. The blowers are fine, they’re just at the VERY end of their life based on ground down soles from about 60 sled days on a machine with cheese graters for rails.

Appreciate any input. Don’t want to take two sets of boots.


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

[mntlion]

Sorry, I dont have a solution to the shell slop, other then contact lange warranty. If its the side cuffs casuing it, you might be able to press them in more , if its the walk mode its self. no idea. sorry

[gregL]

Take the Supercharger Blowers if you know they work and fit, no one is going to give you a hard time about worn soles other than a shop remounting bindings.

[Jong Lafitte]

BUMP for:

This is not a problem that's kept me from skiing for two (three?) seasons but one boot is just a tad too narrow. 26.5 Titans with intuition pro tours. I molded the intuitions with extra padding in the area of concern. I thought the liner on that foot would just pack out, I don't need much room, but they haven't. I ski without latching the bottom two buckles. If there is the slightest pressure from those then there is not enough volume. Shell fit is pretty tight so I'm not sure how much thinner the intuitions are going to/should get. What do you all think is a good strategy to get maybe .3 - .5 mm (if that?) more into the last?

My thought was to spot mold the liners and at the same time heat the boots in the area of concern, put the liners in and buckle them down and sit in pain for a little while. Any reason to just to one or the other first?

Thanks in advance!

[mntlion]

BUMP for:

This is not a problem that's kept me from skiing for two (three?) seasons but one boot is just a tad too narrow. 26.5 Titans with intuition pro tours. I molded the intuitions with extra padding in the area of concern. I thought the liner on that foot would just pack out, I don't need much room, but they haven't. I ski without latching the bottom two buckles. If there is the slightest pressure from those then there is not enough volume. Shell fit is pretty tight so I'm not sure how much thinner the intuitions are going to/should get. What do you all think is a good strategy to get maybe .3 - .5 mm (if that?) more into the last?

My thought was to spot mold the liners and at the same time heat the boots in the area of concern, put the liners in and buckle them down and sit in pain for a little while. Any reason to just to one or the other first?

Thanks in advance!

so stretching out the shell 1-2mm should make you happy? ya, usually easy to do for a boot fitter?

[yeahman]

Finally forcing myself to overcome my newbootaphobia and would appreciate any recommendations on replacements.

I'm 52, pretty good skier, still regularly skiing the hardest terrain at the resort but not motivated to charge as hard as I used to. Comfort is important to me. That said I think my current boots, Black Diamond Factor 130s, are about a size too big. I've had them for 8 years, replaced the BOA liner once. They are a touring/resort hybrid and I'm not touring much these days (and if I do I have a full tele setup I don't mind using). So I want to get into something more resort-oriented. Don't need walk mode, etc.

Anyway, my foot is semi-wide, at least at its widest point--that spot will probably need to be punched out if I buy a properly sized boot (in the past I've gone long in order to achieve extra width in that spot). I don't feel like my heels are particularly wide. I've been compensating for some heel slop and general looseness for a long time. I feel like a properly fitted boot more tailored to the type of resort skiing I do would really improve my experience.

Footbeds: I've been sold custom footbeds in the past for hiking boots and ski boots. Every time I've taken them out and thrown them away. I'm not sure if it's me, or them, but I just can't seem to get past the stage where my arches ache like crazy. I just use really simple, thin off the rack footbeds. Not sure if this matters but it seems like every boot person wants to sell you a custom footbed, and they kind of make you feel like an idiot if you resist.

I don't think I need a 130 stiffness anymore, maybe a 120?

I am seriously dreading this whole thing. Spent an excruciating hour and a half in a shop the other day trying on boots, going through the whole thing (meanwhile it's dumping outside), with a sales guy I didn't really like, and finally had the guy put a shim in my current boots and a pad to help with the heel movement, but those are just band-aids. I really need new boots.

If anybody wants to recommend a boot based on this somewhat vague info, at least it would be a starting point. I've read some reviews but would rather hear some personal opinions here and then follow up on that with reviews. Thanks in advance to anybody who wants to offer suggestions.

[mntlion]

If anybody wants to recommend a boot based on this somewhat vague info, at least it would be a starting point. I've read some reviews but would rather hear some personal opinions here and then follow up on that with reviews. Thanks in advance to anybody who wants to offer suggestions.

1) yes you need new boots

2) you are going about this from the wrong end, you need to look for a good boot fitter, NOT go looking for a boot. You don't go asking for wood, when you need new kitchen cabinets.

3) all boots can be made bigger (wider) but not smaller. All boots can be made softer, but not stiffer. so fit for the heel, and make the front bigger if needed, after you use the boot.

4) if nothing else, buy the red ones.

[margotron]

edit: already bought the red ones. didnt work

ok here we go. i can't figure out this ramp angle vs. forward lean vs. why it feels like my forefoot/toes are coming up off the front of the boot.

This season, especially in pow, ive felt like im not on top of my skiis and that it constantly feels like the ball of my foot/toes are lifting up. To combat that:

1. Ive been flexing my ankle really hard to compensate
2. I've been tightening the bindings over my arch/forefoot/toes reallllly tight (this has led to painful if temporary damage to the myelin sheaths in my peroneal nerve according to my doc).

What gives? I've experimented with max forward lean in my boots and minimum forward lean. doesn't seem to matter. Currently in a pair of Lange RX130s with a custom footbed and zipfits.

So far, has been a painful (and expensive - next lifetime im being an ortho doc) season. When I touch the outside of my achilles, I get pins and needles on the underside of my foot and toes. Currently resting up and would prefer not to re-aggravate the nerves. And more importantly ski!!!

[swissiphic]

Go to skier's manifesto and do a deep dive....within the biblical volume of info, your solution is in there somewhere.

My knee jerk guesses are; 1. boots are too stiff 2. boots are too upright. 3. boots don't have enough progressive flex 4. ramp angle is too low 5. too much arch support of footbed not allowing enough foot pronation and natural/proper distribution of pressure from arch through midfoot to ball of foot. 6. the foot pain/damage issue ... is it specifically from the tight buckling of mid/forefoot? if not, maybe you don't have enough width for forefoot/metatarsel spread and it's causing morton's neuroma?

[mntlion]

margotron

please answer all this:


So a few questions that you can answer that will help this out.

1) What is the shell fit like for length? Remove the liner, put your foot in the shell only, have your toes lightly touching the front of the boot and see how much room is behind your heel and the boots shell. Use a pen as a spacer and measure this for thickness. You want 5-15mm (1/8 to ½ inch) of room. If you have more then 25mm stop here

2) What is the shell fit like for width? Now center your foot front to back, (same amount of room behind the toe and heel) and is the width of your foot touching the sides of the boots shell? You want anything from lightly brushing to 2mm per side. If you have 3mm per side stop here.

3) Do you have any footebds? Most people find a off the rack, or full custom footbed more comfortable, and helps to hold the foot in place better, Get one.

So if you boot is within all of the above parameters we can go on. If you boot is just too big it is not worth working on. Your foot will still move around, you have to over tighten the buckles, and cramp to foot and cut off circulation (cold toes). Your boots are too big, and nothing will make that much better. Don’t waste your time, and money fixing a broken leg with bandaids. You need boots that are 1-2 sizes smaller. If you really want work on what you have, a boot fitter can do somethings, but it will not get much better, and will be $50 - $150 for not much progress.

So now that your boot is within a workable size range in length, width and with a supportive footbed we can go on to getting more info.


A few basic things to check first:

1) You just have one, thin, clean ski sock in the boots
2) You just have a sock in the boot? (no thermals, jewelry, etc)
3) Your toe nails are trimmed short?
4) They are YOUR boots and not borrowed?
5) You are just skiing in your ski boots? (not walking, driving etc)?
6) You dry your liners out at night either with a dryer or remove liners?
7) The left liner, the left footbed are in the left boot and this is on the left foot?
8) You are loosening the buckles if you are not skiing (while standing, on lifts, etc)
9) You are not skiing all day in new boots? They need time to break in
10) Buckles are pointing to the outside?


So your boots are the right size, AND you are doing everything else right, but still the boots are not 100% right. These questions will help a boot fitter will have a better understanding of the problem and can start to help you. Better Or Worse = (BOW)

1) BOW with the buckles tighter or looser?

2) BOW with thinner or thicker socks?

3) BOW with any footbeds (custom, stock, none, etc)?

4) BOW skiing, standing, or feet un-weighted (hanging off a chair lift)?

5) BOW thru out the day (and when does the pain start?)

6) BOW on the first vs the third day?

7) BOW on harder or easier terrain?

8) BOW with the power straps (velcro straps) tighter or looser?

9) BOW if you do any particular movements, or actions?

10) Any medical, health, or weight changes since you used them last?

[margotron]

margotron

please answer all this:


So a few questions that you can answer that will help this out.

1) What is the shell fit like for length? Remove the liner, put your foot in the shell only, have your toes lightly touching the front of the boot and see how much room is behind your heel and the boots shell. Use a pen as a spacer and measure this for thickness. You want 5-15mm (1/8 to ½ inch) of room. If you have more then 25mm stop here

Between heel and shell, 1/3". More between achilles and shell but if we are talking heel [i.e. distance from heel bone to boot shell] then 1/3"

2) What is the shell fit like for width? Now center your foot front to back, (same amount of room behind the toe and heel) and is the width of your foot touching the sides of the boots shell? You want anything from lightly brushing to 2mm per side. If you have 3mm per side stop here.

Between lightly brushing and annoyingly brushing. Touching on both sides.

3) Do you have any footebds? Most people find a off the rack, or full custom footbed more comfortable, and helps to hold the foot in place better, Get one.

Custom foot beds by Olympic at Squaw. The left foot bed (the leg that has the damage) has a varus wedge and extra built up under the arch rather significantly with hard foam because I'm knock-kneed, the foot pronates, and I have a tendency to A-Frame without it. With the wedge and build up I ski bases-flat.

So if you boot is within all of the above parameters we can go on. If you boot is just too big it is not worth working on. Your foot will still move around, you have to over tighten the buckles, and cramp to foot and cut off circulation (cold toes). Your boots are too big, and nothing will make that much better. Don’t waste your time, and money fixing a broken leg with bandaids. You need boots that are 1-2 sizes smaller. If you really want work on what you have, a boot fitter can do somethings, but it will not get much better, and will be $50 - $150 for not much progress.

So now that your boot is within a workable size range in length, width and with a supportive footbed we can go on to getting more info.


A few basic things to check first:

1) You just have one, thin, clean ski sock in the boots Yes
2) You just have a sock in the boot? (no thermals, jewelry, etc) Correct
3) Your toe nails are trimmed short? Correct
4) They are YOUR boots and not borrowed? Correct
5) You are just skiing in your ski boots? (not walking, driving etc)? Walk across parking lot
6) You dry your liners out at night either with a dryer or remove liners? Remove liners
7) The left liner, the left footbed are in the left boot and this is on the left foot? Correct
8) You are loosening the buckles if you are not skiing (while standing, on lifts, etc) NO
9) You are not skiing all day in new boots? They need time to break in 60+ days in boots
10) Buckles are pointing to the outside? Correct


So your boots are the right size, AND you are doing everything else right, but still the boots are not 100% right. These questions will help a boot fitter will have a better understanding of the problem and can start to help you. Better Or Worse = (BOW)

1) BOW with the buckles tighter or looser Tighter? Ski better, more pain. Looser? Ski worse, less pain, then more pain when jolted due to slop

2) BOW with thinner or thicker socks? Don't know. Ski with thin ski socks.

3) BOW with any footbeds (custom, stock, none, etc) Custom. Ski much better with in. Don't know what pain is like without them, never tried.

4) BOW skiing, standing, or feet un-weighted (hanging off a chair lift)? Skiing = worst. Absolute worst during torsional part of turn. Standing = better. Unweighted = best

5) BOW thru out the day (and when does the pain start?) Worse throughout the day. Cannot ski by end of first run. Pain 10 on 10 scale. Beginning of day pain 2/10.

6) BOW on the first vs the third day? Worse on third day. This built up over the course of 2 weeks.

7) BOW on harder or easier terrain? Worse on harder terrain. Ice or any sharp impact ultimate worst.

8) BOW with the power straps (velcro straps) tighter or looser? Have Booster Straps. Better with boosters tighter.

9) BOW if you do any particular movements, or actions? Applying torsional (sideways) force to the cuff area of the boot or twisting the boot, especially to the right. Twisting skiis back and forth on the chairlift for example. Sitting with skiis parallel, twist both right in parallel until horizontal, then reversing them causes sharp pain. Any trick such as safety grab, mule kick, cross causes mega pain.

10) Any medical, health, or weight changes since you used them last?

I picked up bigger skiis in the off season. 190 bibbys. They have been bucking me and I have not felt on top of them.

[JayPowHound]

Going out on a limb to post here, as I won't be able to see my boot guys for a couple weeks..

New boots this season, professionally selected and cooked Solly XPro 130s.

Fit is fantastic, the issue I'm having is the amount (degree?) of forward lean needed to really engage the boot.

FWIW I am coming from a Scarpa Typhoon as a daily driver, stiffened up with a wrap around intuition and 3 strap booster..

With the new sollys I am experiencing an area where my upper shin moves forward before engaging and flexing the boot.. I want contact before its there, if that makes sense.

Not sure if this is a fit issue, something that is a acceptable learning curve given my boot change, or something else..

Any help or advice is much appreciated. Please let me know if my description of the issue doesnt work and I will do my best to provide clarification.

[margotron]

Go to skier's manifesto and do a deep dive....within the biblical volume of info, your solution is in there somewhere.

My knee jerk guesses are;

1. boots are too stiff I've tinkered with this. The Langes can go up and down between 130 and about 112 flex. Been skiing them on the lower end.

2. boots are too upright. My initial thought. Been skiing with a spoiler. Pain seems worse when boots are more upright and I experience more toe lift.

3. boots don't have enough progressive flex. I have a booster strap and lange's are pretty progressive no? boots arent old. 2016

4. ramp angle is too low. No idea how to tell but curious.

5. too much arch support of footbed not allowing enough foot pronation and natural/proper distribution of pressure from arch through midfoot to ball of foot. Could 100% see this. Both my footbeds are custom, and the left has been worked on quite a bite. I am knock-kneed and have tendency to A-Frame/left knee buckle in. The footbed arch was built up to prevent collapsing inward and a varus wedge put under the heel. Could this be contributing? I ski better with the built up footbed (bases flat. otherwise, the left ski doesnt ski flat without the footbed built up)

6. the foot pain/damage issue ... is it specifically from the tight buckling of mid/forefoot? if not, maybe you don't have enough width for forefoot/metatarsel spread and it's causing morton's neuroma? I don't know. Maybe? My assumption was that it was from doing those front 2 buckles super tight, I felt the buckles clamping on the bones above my arch and shutting down blood flow to the toes. But of course i ignored and skiid on (this was before the pain became unbearable 2 weeks later). My doc thought the peroneal, which is the nerve that runs along the outside of the left calf and into the heel then to the toes because when I lightly touch the outside of my achilles (like now), next to the knobby bone on the outside, there's CLEAR tingling all the way to my pinky toe. Like you've sat on the toilet too long

I wonder about having my boot soles professionally canted (not the cuff adjuster thing on the boot) and/or lowering the arch support/varus wedge

[margotron]

Whoah. Skier's manifesto site is insanity.

Seems to point to flattening out the foot bed in that foot. However, don't know if this will fix the pain on the outside (deep inside) my calf/heel/ankle

[swissiphic]

Going out on a limb to post here, as I won't be able to see my boot guys for a couple weeks..

New boots this season, professionally selected and cooked Solly XPro 130s.

Fit is fantastic, the issue I'm having is the amount (degree?) of forward lean needed to really engage the boot.

FWIW I am coming from a Scarpa Typhoon as a daily driver, stiffened up with a wrap around intuition and 3 strap booster..

With the new sollys I am experiencing an area where my upper shin moves forward before engaging and flexing the boot.. I want contact before its there, if that makes sense.

Not sure if this is a fit issue, something that is a acceptable learning curve given my boot change, or something else..

Any help or advice is much appreciated. Please let me know if my description of the issue doesnt work and I will do my best to provide clarification.

I've experienced this before...I call it 'gaposis'. solution for me in dynafit mercuries and to a lesser degree, dynafit vulcans is to raise the power strap in the front so it wraps on the liner foam not the shell/upper cuff plastic. Another option is to slide the power strap down so it wraps the foam of liner kinda behind the shell plastic, if that makes sense? Not sure if the construction shape of yer sollies would allow for this powerstrap movement and tinkering of orientation. Those are the quick experimental fixes but you could always try adding material like automotive gasket making cork and build up layers to fill that void.

[swissiphic]

To test for if more ramp angle makes it all better or worse; here are a few quick hacks.

1. binding ramp angle: stack some spacers under the heel of boot in small increments, like a few mm's. I like to fold voile rubber straps into various thicknesses and step down. skis some smooth groomers, see what effect it has on your balance on skis.

2. boot internal ramp angle: stack some spacers under your heels of liners, like cut to shape beer coasters. see what effect it has on balance on skis.

3. you mention you bought some bibby 190s....have you done some a/b comparisons with something softer/shorter...like armada jj's for example? would be interesting to see for interest sakes.

[swissiphic]

Whoah. Skier's manifesto site is insanity.

Seems to point to flattening out the foot bed in that foot. However, don't know if this will fix the pain on the outside (deep inside) my calf/heel/ankle

Yeah, skiersmanifesto is a brain overloader. I can only handle it in small doses before the neural network electrical activity goes past the redline.

As for the flattening the arch of footbed thing...you could always try shoving some like running shoe footbeds in there to see what effect a non supportive foot bed has...but, like you said, you seem to have unique supportive needs so perhaps it's not optimal for your needs? I have flat feet that pronate excessively and for my needs, require at least a bit of support...every foot is different, just have to find what works for you with some trial and error.

[smooth operator]

I've experienced this before...I call it 'gaposis'. solution for me in dynafit mercuries and to a lesser degree, dynafit vulcans is to raise the power strap in the front so it wraps on the liner foam not the shell/upper cuff plastic. Another option is to slide the power strap down so it wraps the foam of liner kinda behind the shell plastic, if that makes sense? Not sure if the construction shape of yer sollies would allow for this powerstrap movement and tinkering of orientation. Those are the quick experimental fixes but you could always try adding material like automotive gasket making cork and build up layers to fill that void.

^ this, possibly also add a spoiler to take up space (will slightly increase fwd lean )

[swissiphic]

^ this, possibly also add a spoiler to take up space (will slightly increase fwd lean )

Yup, that helped for me a bit, but, the problem is the front contact point of shin still felt a bit too low on the front of the boot and doing the powerstrap mod or adding material helped make it feel more tactilely (is tactilely a word?) correct. for a rough check, why not try taping some beer coasters or something similar in density in the gaposis gap and see if it helps? Also, from other stuff i learned over at skiersmanifesto, shaping the top of the tongue into a deeper 'V' shape is apparently advantageous. just shove more beer coasters laterally to wrap the shin bone is my guess at that one.

[swissiphic]

Whoah. Skier's manifesto site is insanity.

Seems to point to flattening out the foot bed in that foot. However, don't know if this will fix the pain on the outside (deep inside) my calf/heel/ankle

Hey check this out margotron. Maybe you've got a blocked ankle glide path? video shows lifting forefoot if you scroll down a bit in the article.

https://skimoves.me/2014/04/16/ankle-glide-path-block/

jeesh, brain fried from reading the comments on the article.... here's one guy's comment

"Nice dynamic radiograph. However, I think the toes are lifting off the bootbase by direct pressure of the lower tongue on the extensor tendons making the hard turn from the shank into the foot. These tendons are held in place (restricted from bowstringing out away from the curve) by the extensor retinaculum. If the lower tongue is applying pressure to those tendons as the ankle dorsiflexes, then that direct pressure will cause tension on those tendons, lifting the toes and reducing contact by the forefoot on the bootbase…something counterproductive to moving the CoP forward during pronation.
Also, thinking in terms of the sagittal moment caused by the force of the shank on the tongue… if the distributed force applied to the tongue can be thought of as a single point, the more distributed that force is low down in the tongue, the lower that single point will be. The lower it is, the shorter the moment arm it exerts around the tibiotalar joint and the less effective that force will be on creating the sagittal moment resisted by the forefoot (ie metatarsal heads). In other words, the more tongue, the more force needed to accomplish the weight shift forward."

[mntlion]

So answers are before coffee, on a Powder day that I'm about to head out for

margotron: try it without ANY footbeds, and with a flat, crappy, original footbed and see what happens,

[turnfarmer]

So answers are before coffee, on a Powder day that I'm about to head out for

margotron: try it without ANY footbeds, and with a flat, crappy, original footbed and see what happens,

Too much varus forefoot post will cause peroneal tendon problems. Even if the post doesn't extend under the first methead, if it is too high under the first metatarsal shaft, it will over stress the peroneals(and if thick/dense enough, it could be leaving the first met up in the air adding to the to the front of foot lifting feeling.)

The front of foot lifting sounds like you need to reduce volume on the forefoot, but could also be caused by too much tension in front of the ankle. Kind of like the ski moves idea, too tight a fit here will tension the anterior tibias tendon which lifts your foot up.

[JayPowHound]

Yup, that helped for me a bit, but, the problem is the front contact point of shin still felt a bit too low on the front of the boot and doing the powerstrap mod or adding material helped make it feel more tactilely (is tactilely a word?) correct. for a rough check, why not try taping some beer coasters or something similar in density in the gaposis gap and see if it helps? Also, from other stuff i learned over at skiersmanifesto, shaping the top of the tongue into a deeper 'V' shape is apparently advantageous. just shove more beer coasters laterally to wrap the shin bone is my guess at that one.

Skied today with the powerstrap between liner and shell, and it definitely corrected the issue. Almost too much, as I felt more upright than I wanted to be.. although I was railing man-made snow on the SL cheaters (70mm 13m 165cm) for the first time this year, so may have been a little off my driving / edge control game in general.

Will look at the forward lean and try a couple other tweaks before going back to the fitter in a couple weeks. If I had a little more forward lean with the powerstrap inside the shell that might be the sweet spot..

[mntlion]

Skied today with the powerstrap between liner and shell, and it definitely corrected the issue. Almost too much, as I felt more upright than I wanted to be.. although I was railing man-made snow on the SL cheaters (70mm 13m 165cm) for the first time this year, so may have been a little off my driving / edge control game in general.

Will look at the forward lean and try a couple other tweaks before going back to the fitter in a couple weeks. If I had a little more forward lean with the powerstrap inside the shell that might be the sweet spot..

glad its working

1) the boots F lean is the same, you are just being pushed back all the way to where the boot is.

2) if you want more F lean, jam a glove/sock between the shell and liner and test this. If you like it, go get one from yur local boot shop (most have a bin of them that they removed from other boots)