the answer to "WTF is wrong with my boots?"

[mntlion]

FT plastic is about the same as anyone elses, no better, no worse. sometimes the shape of the boot (lower not overlapping) makes it a bit harder to punch, as the plastic in the new shape has to come from somewhere.

maybe thin out the footbed a bit and see if that helps too

[shafty85]

So, it's late in the season, yes, but I'm hoping to tour a few times this summer up on Baker (after reading this thread, I realize that my boots don't fit properly). I'm hoping to patrol in the interior next season (reside in Vancouver) but hoping to get the new boots sooner rather than later as well as from a boot fitter from this area. So, my questions are:
1) Is it a good idea to get boots so late in the season?
2) Would it be better to get the boots from a fitter here or wait until I'm around where I'm skiing and get it done there so that I'm near the fitter for any problems?

mtnlion, I sent you a pm as I'll be in your neck of the woods this weekend. Hopefully be able to discuss more then.

[mntlion]

get them from where you are skiing, at the start of the year. They will still have last years on sale, plus the will have all of next years options too.

[NWFlow]

I having been struggling with a stance issue most of the season and am beginning to wonder if it is solveable; bootfitters in the area have not been much help:

I am pigeon toed in a normal stance and when I walk and run. When I ski, my stance is obviously forced to be more neutral with my feet pointing straight forward. I believe this is causing my knees to track well to the outside when absorbing bumps and, accordingly, this makes my skiing look almost comical. With such a bow-legged ski stance, I am often on my outside edges making it difficult to carve turns, especially at low speeds. The issue is significantly worse in my left leg which is incidentally also more pigeon toed. I can feel my ankles trying to role to the outside when I attempt to engage the inside edge of the ski. Custom cork insoles and boot cuff alignment have not helped significantly. Do I need to see another bootfitter or is canting the next step -- I don't really know how to proceed and shops in the area have not been particularly helpful (maybe I am not asking the right questions)? Would a softer boot help -- I am currently in the Atomic Burner 120?

Another quick, unrelated question: for touring or hiking in ski boots is an "normal", running shoe orthotic acceptable or should I always stick with the cork? the cork insole can occasionally make touring very painful?

[mntlion]

my wife is duck footed (curvy, and tight IT bands) and we mount most of her skis duck as well to accomidate this. Toes are 2-3mm to the outside, and heels are 2-3mm to the inside. Try that?

orthotics are usually made running/walking might work, but usually are too thick, and made for a walking/running gait (toe strike, heel off, bend in the toes, etc) skiing only has a 20' range of motion, and a stiff foot. So it might work, but might not. Try it and see

[NWFlow]

Is shimming the bottom of the a footbed out of the question? Someone suggested this to me a few pages back, and was wondering if this can be done professionally -- especially since I can't even tell which side to shim...

[mntlion]

sure, try it. use a 2mm shim, from toe to heel, under the footbed, or under the liner (or both if you need it) popsicle sticks work well, or any non-compressible material

play around with it and see what works for you

[telechuck]

Late in the game here, but I put up a post recently on shell sizing and someone suggested to post here as well.

I was in 26.0 Salomon Pros from 5 or so years ago, custom liners, intuitions, booster strap. In December worked with a boot fitter and bought Technica Dragon 120s in 25.5 shell size. They were quite tight and I was told they would pack out and we could get them fit up proper. This wasn't my first rodeo, but it was the first time I was going with stock liners, so trusted the fit, etc.

As with any new boot, they hurt, made my toes go numb, and generally kind of sucked. They got better, but I still have some serious toe bang to the point I have a bruise on the end of my big toe and my feet get cold if it is below 50 F. This kind of sucks riding my bike, skiing, and generally walking around. The toes in each have been punched, the left one twice (my left foot is a bit larger, say 1/4 size).

My thought is the boots are too small, and I should get a larger shell size and go with Intuitions. Here are the answers to the questions. Thanks for posting this up, it is quite helpful.


) What is the shell fit like for length? Remove the liner, put your foot in the shell only, have your toes lightly touching the front of the boot and see how much room is behind your heel and the boots shell. Use a pen as a spacer and measure this for thickness. You want 5-15mm (1/8 to ½ inch) of room. If you have more then 25mm stop here. One finger.

2) What is the shell fit like for width? Now center your foot front to back, (same amount of room behind the toe and heel) and is the width of your foot touching the sides of the boots shell? You want anything from lightly brushing to 2mm per side. If you have 3mm per side stop here. Lightly brushing to 2mm

3) Do you have any footebds? Most people find a off the rack, or full custom footbed more comfortable, and helps to hold the foot in place better, Get one. Custom footbed



1)You just have one, thin, clean ski sock in the boots: Yes
2) You just have a sock in the boot? (no thermals, jewelry, etc) Correct
3) Your toe nails are trimmed short? Yes
4) They are YOUR boots and not borrowed? Yes
5) You are just skiing in your ski boots? (not walking, driving etc)? Yes
6) You dry your liners out at night either with a dryer or remove liners? Yes
7) The left liner, the left footbed are in the left boot and this is on the left foot? Yes
8) You are loosening the buckles if you are not skiing (while standing, on lifts, etc) Yes
9) You are not skiing all day in new boots? They need time to break in. Skied shorter days at first, now ski all day after 20+ days
10) Buckles are pointing to the outside? Yes



1) BOW with the buckles tighter or looser? Better looser


2) BOW with thinner or thicker socks? Thinner

3) BOW with any footbeds (custom, stock, none, etc)? Have custom footbeds - Better

4) BOW skiing, standing, or feet un-weighted (hanging off a chair lift)? Unweighted or skiing. Whatever brings toes away from front of boot

5) BOW thru out the day (and when does the pain start?) Worse at start, first few runs suck, then toes go numb, no matter the temp.

6) BOW on the first vs the third day? Worse, see above

7) BOW on harder or easier terrain? Better on Harder, as I don’t get lazy and back seat

8) BOW with the power straps (velcro straps) tighter or looser? Same, boot just feels sloppier

9) BOW if you do any particular movements, or actions? Putting boots on and walking to lifts sucks, as toe bangs the front of boot. Aggressive forward movements bring foot back in boot.

10) Any medical, health, or weight changes since you used them last? No.

[mntlion]

um so what are you asking? I think that this is 2 issues,
1) toes are touching the front of the boot sometimes This might be solved with your old intuition liner, or with stretching/cutting the toe of the stock liner

2) toes are going numb. This is usually an instep pressure issue.

Few more things:

and can you convert fingers to mm please for the shell fit?

you are using the stock liner? any BOW with your old intuition? has the toe of the liner been cut/stretched out?

Doe your toes go numb with the boots on, inside? (then it is a instep pressue thing for sure)

SO make sure that you leave the 2 toe buckles loose, or even 100% off (not done up at all) to give you the instep height you need.

For the toe bang, is it a 1) height, or 2) length problem?
1) grind the boot board thinner, or thin out the footbed more, or turn it into a 3/4 footbed.
2) Ask the boot fitter to max out the stretch on the length. FYI: you might loose some width or height on this..

[shafty85]

So, in taking your (mntlion's) adivice, I'm waiting until the beginning of next season to purchase boots (likely from you, ironically, as I will be skiing the Lake next season). I'm researching boots and I'm wondering what the benefit of boots with the "3-piece" system, such as FullTilts and Dalbellos, over traditionally manufactured boots? Also, how/where do you measure your fore-foot width - at the widest part of your foot? And do you take this measurement when there is pressure on the foot (which causes the foot to "expand" outwards) or with no pressure on the foot?

[gramboh]

Not sure if this is the right thread, but just wanted to give a thumbs up to Booster straps. Got a pair of the expert/racer (not the World Cup) installed late in the season as I felt like the shell/liner interface at the cuff was never tight enough. Huge difference not only in responsiveness, but in total foot comfort. I have no idea why, but with the boosters I can leave my boots buckled longer than I could with the default power straps.

Boots are Tecnica Dragon 120's with footbeds from Fantayk Co in Whistler.

[telechuck]

Ok, I skied one last day this weekend and can answer these better now.

Answers below in italics.

um so what are you asking? I think that this is 2 issues,
1) toes are touching the front of the boot sometimes This might be solved with your old intuition liner, or with stretching/cutting the toe of the stock liner
Yes, my big toe touches the end of the boot. The Dragon has a unique liner in that the toes are actually thin, say 2mm neoprene, not full foam. So, my toe, with the thin neoprene is touching the tip of the boot. This happens on the left foot.


2) toes are going numb. This is usually an instep pressure issue.
This happens on the right foot and appears to be from toes being "squished" together, especially at the little toe area.
Few more things:

and can you convert fingers to mm please for the shell fit? 7mm approximately

you are using the stock liner? any BOW with your old intuition? has the toe of the liner been cut/stretched out? Stock liner, that is described above. Old Intuition makes boot generally tighter, but seems to protect big toe from hitting the end, but boot is super tight. Not surprising it is tight, as this Intuition came out of a larger boot.

Doe your toes go numb with the boots on, inside? (then it is a instep pressue thing for sure) Yes, if boots are buckled.

SO make sure that you leave the 2 toe buckles loose, or even 100% off (not done up at all) to give you the instep height you need. Will try this, thanks!

For the toe bang, is it a 1) height, or 2) length problem? length
1) grind the boot board thinner, or thin out the footbed more, or turn it into a 3/4 footbed.
2) Ask the boot fitter to max out the stretch on the length. FYI: you might loose some width or height on this..

will try this, thanks

The boots are quite small, and I will try the suggestions above, but at what point does one say, "i bought boots that are too small and do not have the time to keep getting them tweaked and move to a larger size?"

Thanks for all the information.

[mntlion]

give up when you want to, but try on the same boot, in a bigger size, and see how that feels. If it is right, then stop play with this one, and go bigger. If that bigger boot is TOO big, then you need to work on this one.

Maybe try another boot fitter too, and ask them what they think?

[theetruscan]

So, I'm having a problem recur on two separate pairs of boots. I think it has something to do with my liners or legs.

First pair of boots were Head RS80s with bordering on too much room after a toe punch.

Second pair of boots are a new pair of dynafit titans (punched for width and my scary huge navicular protrusion). Width is right, I don't recall the amount of room lengthwise, but it is something right about 1/2" (tiny bit under), I was told not to go shorter on a touring boot.

Both have a pair of intuiton powerwrap liners in them (same liner, but recooked when I switched) with custom cork superfeet footbeds and a volume reducer (reducer is rather thin, was necessary because my powerwraps would have crushed the cork footbeds otherwise).

The problem I'm having is that, when I clamp down the buckles/strap enough to feel like I've got good control and don't have my lower leg banging around, I get horrible pain around the area where the inner layer of the power-wrap, err, "wrap" ends right on top of the tendon running up the outside of my leg. After a few days, this gets so bad, I can't flex the boots forward, and I can't even hop on the legs outside the boots.

I've tried the stock strap on the heads, and a booster strap on the dynafits. The booster was better inside the shell than outside, but not so good still. I've recently flipped the booster strap so the cam is on the inside of my legs, but haven't skied with this yet (with this orientation, I can't put the booster under the shell).
1) BOW with the buckles tighter or looser? BOW with buckles/straps looser, but I have no control.

2) BOW with thinner or thicker socks? Errr, I only own ultimax and eurosport socks, both are pretty thin.

4) BOW skiing, standing, or feet un-weighted (hanging off a chair lift)? better when centered, brutal when leaning forward. Worse with time, requires 1-2 weeks to recover after 3ish days skiing.

5 & 6) BOW thru out the day (and when does the pain start?) and BOW on the first vs the third day? Worse over time, pain gradually increases over multiple days, with no meaningful improvement overnight.

7) BOW on harder or easier terrain? Worse on rougher (i.e. choppier) terrain because I get forced forward on some of the shaking.

8) BOW with the power straps (velcro straps) tighter or looser? Same as buckles.

9) BOW if you do any particular movements, or actions? Flexing forward, and rattling over choppy snow is bad.

10) Buckles are pointing to the outside? 3 of 4 buckles on each boot are, indeed, pointing to the outside.

My bootfitter told me my tendons were shot from the season of abuse, and I need to give them some time (around a month) before we fix this. I'm kind of ok with this, but since I will be pretty limited on time before a major hike in the boots, I'd like to see if there's anything I can try this coming weekend.

EDIT: Also, mtnlion, I'm officially throwing in the towel on my idea. Thanks for your help, but after lots of failures, I remembered I don't know squat about manufacturing or mechanical engineering.

[mntlion]

so you are getting uneven pressure, on the outside, of the leg, where the wrap of the liner folds over the inside? (where the liner is doubled up?)

can you add a strip of foam, to the liner, to even out the pressure more? So you dont have that big ridge from 2 layers down to one layer of liner?

or find a GOOD seamstress, to trim/remove some of the liner, so that the liner doesn't fold over as far? (you have skinny legs I assume?)

[theetruscan]

Yes, exactly that. It just happens to be directly on a tendon.

I should have room to experiment with a strip of foam. Will give that a shot first, then remove some of the liner's second layer(boot fitter is willing to do this, just being cautious).

Thanks much for the suggestion.

[camlax]

Heres a boot fit/ liner question question.
I'm in a 27.5 lange rs 130. I skied all last season with a good footbed in the stock liner and by the end of the season, my heel was swimming. I had piece of extra foam (U shaped thing) on the heel all season. Stock Liner is totally shot so I'm looking replacement
For shell fit, I have about 1cm behind my heel with the forefoot lightly touching the sides of the shell. I have a few mm on each side in the heel. In retrospect, I should have gone with the 26.5 but teaching, I need something I can stand around all day in.
Basically, I want to make my boot very tight in the heel and take up some volume to make the boot feel shorter. I know it sucks to try to make a big boot smaller but that’s where I'm at. Boots have been canted so I want to keep the same shells. I don’t need to teach in these anymore and want to make them as tight and perform as well as possible.
What do you like for a liner in this situation? I have a pair of basically new Intuition powerwraps out of some 27.5 Full Tilts I could throw in there?
I’m really leaning towards the zip fits though. I’ve heard its possible to inject more goo into the liner to take up volume around the heel. True?
What do you usually do in a scenario like this? I’m going to take them to a good bootfitter in the fall, Just figured I’d get some opinions.
Here are the answers to your questions.
1) BOW with the buckles tighter or looser? Tighter
2) BOW with thinner or thicker socks? Thicker
3) BOW with any footbeds (custom, stock, none, etc)? Footbed is best
4) BOW skiing, standing, or feet un-weighted (hanging off a chair lift)? When skiing, I can feel my feet trying to grip the footbed a bit to prevent movement.
5) BOW thru out the day (and when does the pain start?) No pain, just annoyance
6) BOW on the first vs the third day? Boots start the day pretty snug then get loose
7) BOW on harder or easier terrain? Can be tough to really drive the ski on harder terrain
8) BOW with the power straps (velcro straps) tighter or looser? Tight
9) BOW if you do any particular movements, or actions? No pain so involved
10) Any medical, health, or weight changes since you used them last? Nope

[volklpowdermaniac]

Question of etiquette to slightly hijack this thread...

Many of us, either a) can't afford to buy boots at full retail from our favorite boot fitters (or maybe many of us can...I can't, but I digress) OR b) can get the same boots through online sales, maggot deals, pro-form etc for a substantial savings

But of course, you should always try on boots before you buy, so how do you proceed knowing that you want your special, makes you feel fuzzy boot fitter to do the work on your new boots, but you'd like to save the money (Which you might then spend on additional boot fitting - footbeds, grinds, punches, etc) and buy the boots elsewhere... Is there a conflict of interest here, does that piss of boot fitters and shops? Do they know how it works and just don't care? Do they feel slighted? Do some of you go to stores you'll never get boot fitting done at and try on boots there and then purchase online, then go to your boot fitter?

Always wondered about this little conflict that makes me feel like I might be screwing my local boot fitter.... unfortunately the difference is usually enough coin to go beyond the "buy local" threshold...which I try to support.

[mntlion]

If people are coming in, to try on, and order elsewhere that is fine. I just suggest some of the work that might be needed to get the boot they want, and the prices of that, or suggest some other boots that might fit as well. If a store sells a $500 boot it costs them $300, or is someone brings in that boot, odds are the fitting will be $100, so the amount in the stores bank account is similar. Also by suggesting other boots that MIGHT fit you are showing the "value" of the boot fitter, (getting the best boot, all the fitting included, etc) so this often turns from "just looking" to people buying.

Usually not a problem for me, but other stores have other ideas...

[Meadow Skipper]

Always wondered about this little conflict that makes me feel like I might be screwing my local boot fitter.... unfortunately the difference is usually enough coin to go beyond the "buy local" threshold...which I try to support.

Short version, you're screwing the guy who has already bought the boots that you are trying on and paid for the retail space that you are trying them on in and the wages of the person that brings them out to you. Having the local guy fit the boots is small ball compared to the expense he has to go to to provide you with a free service - they can't stay open just fitting boots that you tried on there but bought elsewhere. Get a job and pay for the boots at the local shop. Plus you'll usually get most, if not all, of the bootfitting done free if you buy there, so your savings aren't as big as you might think.

[Meathelmet]

Short version.

-What if the shop has only 3 largest manufacturers in stock and considers AT boots as interesting as leather telemark boots?
-What if the shop charges 3 times more of the boot than some online retailer?
-What if the shop guy is so talentless , that you want to secretly use the liner heater only when he is not around ,so he doesnt fuck up the liners...again.
-What if the shop thinks that anyone wearing a boot smaller than 26 has to be a kid,and thus thinks that you really should by his Nordica Doberman JR?



Too bad that in the real life there is a lot of if´s.
I personally scrounge my boots from wherever I get a them for a decent price and If they need adjustment,I got to my local shop to
get the tuned and pay ´em happily. They havent had much problems on accepting the money as it goes straight to their pocket and dont have to tax it..


Personally I have never,ever, met a even remotely decent boot fitter in my life. Here in europe the level seems to be way inferior to what you have in the north america.
Local shops are invariably trying to sell ONLY the boots they are stocking, abroad language barriers "appear" instantly when you are asking some tough questions, after purchase service is non-existant etc...
Hell,I have been practically thrown out from a strölz shop in lech when I went asking advice on canting stuff for my nordica boots.
Some geezer looked intrested for 2 minutes, mangled [b]both[/i] canting screws and tried to charge me 50€... And said "I could help you if those were Our boots"..
Or being told in a surefoot shop that I have "narrow,flat foots with a supination problem" whan I actually none of them...even remotely.

So,if someone finds a good bootfitter,keep ´em happy and well fed. They are a rarity!

[volklpowdermaniac]

-What if the shop has only 3 largest manufacturers in stock and considers AT boots as interesting as leather telemark boots?
-What if the shop charges 3 times more of the boot than some online retailer?
-What if the shop guy is so talentless , that you want to secretly use the liner heater only when he is not around ,so he doesnt fuck up the liners...again.
-What if the shop thinks that anyone wearing a boot smaller than 26 has to be a kid,and thus thinks that you really should by his Nordica Doberman JR?



Too bad that in the real life there is a lot of if´s.
I personally scrounge my boots from wherever I get a them for a decent price and If they need adjustment,I got to my local shop to
get the tuned and pay ´em happily. They havent had much problems on accepting the money as it goes straight to their pocket and dont have to tax it..


Personally I have never,ever, met a even remotely decent boot fitter in my life. Here in europe the level seems to be way inferior to what you have in the north america.
Local shops are invariably trying to sell ONLY the boots they are stocking, abroad language barriers "appear" instantly when you are asking some tough questions, after purchase service is non-existant etc...
Hell,I have been practically thrown out from a strölz shop in lech when I went asking advice on canting stuff for my nordica boots.
Some geezer looked intrested for 2 minutes, mangled [b]both[/i] canting screws and tried to charge me 50€... And said "I could help you if those were Our boots"..
Or being told in a surefoot shop that I have "narrow,flat foots with a supination problem" whan I actually none of them...even remotely.

So,if someone finds a good bootfitter,keep ´em happy and well fed. They are a rarity!

Now we're getting into the heart of things. My original post was meant to feed some discussion, the biggest issue I find is this: I have one, maybe two people who I will let touch my boots. He now works in a shop that sells a lot of A/T gear, but not very many Alpine boots. Now when it's time for new boots, I want to try on as many boots as possible. The huge selection stores, generally are places I'd avoid for boot fitting. The smaller stores, that say carry a just a few brands, usually have a local fitter who is good, but he's just not "your bootfitter", so while you'd like to try some boots on there, but you know your going back to your boot fitter, does that make you a dickhead ? (well for me maybe "once a dick head, always a dickhead").... I dunno, just offseason rambling, but I am certain that it's not black and white.?

[Meadow Skipper]

-What if the shop has only 3 largest manufacturers in stock and considers AT boots as interesting as leather telemark boots?
-What if the shop...

Well yeah, if they fuct you or they are fuct, then my broad-brush condemnation is invalid...if they're fuckers. And REI, fuck them. But if they only carry three brands, then you probably aren't going there to try on a lot of boots.

Now we're getting into the heart of things. My original post was meant to feed some discussion, the biggest issue I find is this: I have one, maybe two people who I will let touch my boots. He now works in a shop that sells a lot of A/T gear, but not very many Alpine boots. Now when it's time for new boots, I want to try on as many boots as possible. The huge selection stores, generally are places I'd avoid for boot fitting. The smaller stores, that say carry a just a few brands, usually have a local fitter who is good, but he's just not "your bootfitter", so while you'd like to try some boots on there, but you know your going back to your boot fitter, does that make you a dickhead ? (well for me maybe "once a dick head, always a dickhead").... I dunno, just offseason rambling, but I am certain that it's not black and white.?

I got no love in my heart for big-box stores, but that didn't come though in your first post.

[weasel1]

Generally, lots of brands doesn't mean good selection. There are a lot of really crappy boots out there that don't fit anyone. Far more important than the number of brands a store carries is how well they know how to fit feet, and know and buy their product. You can capture a very large portion of the fit types with a pretty small boot wall.

I almost never had anyone try on more than two, occasionally three different boots. A good boot fitter will look at your feet and know pretty nearly dead on which shell is going to work best. If you think how they feel "trying them on" is remotely related to getting a good boot fit, you are at this the wrong way. It starts with the right shell, then goes to proper positioning, then tweaking the liner (or, my personal choice, cooking an intuition) then see "how they feel". There have been plenty of times when I did extensive custom shell work before my customer's foot ever went in the boot with the liner in it.

There were also times, though few if I bought right, when i knew immediately the boot the customer needed was not on my wall. When that happened, if I couldn't get it, I would call up fitters I trusted in other shops and locate the boot, make an appointment and get the customer to go. If your shop would rather put you in some bucket that "feels good" in the shop than send you to another fitter to get the right boot, then they are not worth your time, money or sympathy.

[volklpowdermaniac]

Bootfitters:

Do you know all the brands, or do you really know the ins/outs of the ones you sell...

Seems like all a ton of new boots are out there with new stance altering mechanism, flex changy thingys, etc, all new gizmos and gadgets for a truly custom dialed experience.

Curious, because again, if you want to stick to "your bootfitter", and even if he encourages you to shop around and bring him the new boot for fitting, do you guys go out of the way to learn how to work with boots you don't carry?

Or is it "know how to fit one boot, know hot to fit em all"