Maggot snowmobile thread

[BCMtnHound]

Just bought this off a older gent who felt it was time to give up the activity. 2011 600 etec with 1700km for a couple bills over $4000. It was babied. We have a couple of 2012 of the same model for work and they have given us no issues with the usual maintenance, and they are ridden less than gentle. Lots of 800's in the paper at about 4000km, when the engines blow the top end, not too many 600's come up. What an upgrade from the old Indy lite! Best face shots of the season was in the test run of new sled,and still a bunch of winter left above 1800m. Still need to outfit her with a ski rack and a few other accoutrements. We have groomed trails in a number of areas here, but lots of ungroomed terrain to access as well - a mountain track was a must.

[cycology1]

Short answer: Motor. Track...

Yes. Riding a sled in untracked snow is HARD. It takes practice and time to learn. You'll get stuck a lot. You'll probably hit a tree or two. Something will break. You'll quickly learn that the more people you pile onto a sled, the more limited you are in where you can go and what you can do, and problems/difficulties increase exponentially. (So good call on buying two sleds.) Make friends with people that already have sleds.

A sled is an amazing tool to have at your disposal but they ain't no magic bullet. You'll have frustrating days, and amazing ones.

Thx for info! As a long term play, I'm leaning towards a newer sled. Justifying the cost with the 'amazing' days (and completely expect the frustrating days not so much unlike bad day on the mountain). Replacing a amazing cat trips with more mediocre of better sled-ski days?

The reality that they aren't a magic bullet is good to hear...but this is how I got into / become a elite roadie/mtb'er. thinking this is another venture that I become really interested in.

800 motor and => 155 track.

[cycology1]

Just bought this off a older gent who felt it was time to give up the activity. 2011 600 etec with 1700km for a couple bills over $4000. It was babied. We have a couple of 2012 of the same model for work and they have given us no issues with the usual maintenance, and they are ridden less than gentle. Lots of 800's in the paper at about 4000km, when the engines blow the top end, not too many 600's come up. What an upgrade from the old Indy lite! Best face shots of the season was in the test run of new sled,and still a bunch of winter left above 1800m. Still need to outfit her with a ski rack and a few other accoutrements. We have groomed trails in a number of areas here, but lots of ungroomed terrain to access as well - a mountain track was a must.

Nice looking sled, albeit from a newb...this would be great. I will have to keep an eye out for similar deals

[crashidy]

I don't know how often you come to Canada but there are amazing deals on used right now. And new. Considering you save 30 percent on exchange it could be worth it.

[ACH]

I don't know how often you come to Canada but there are amazing deals on used right now. And new. Considering you save 30 percent on exchange it could be worth it.

I was once told that buying a used sled from a can00ker is like buying a dag from a pikey

[simple]

Dat skidoo oil is too much money. I just use maple syrup and 10w30 mix

[anotherVTskibum]

I picked up a pair of sleds (07 and 08 M8s) about a month ago, been to Cooke twice, and learned a lot. Unfortunately, part of what I learned was how to jerry-rig a sled after breaking a-arms on a tree so you can ride it out, and how much it costs to have the dealer replace those A-arms so that you can ride back to your trailer while towing your other sled, which has developed mysterious running issues. I still haven't figured out how to get the damn things to actually carve a turn, but got a little closer last time out (repeatedly got up on edge while playing around, but had trouble getting it to actually change direction at that point).

I'd recommend going as new as you can afford, especially if you don't have a habit of wrenching on power toys. I thought '07 would be new enough, but I've heard "yeah, that's the problem with old sleds" more than few times since. I'd also recommend against going out into the woods with just one sled, unless you're both better at riding it and it's more reliable than mine have been.

In case anyone's got any great ideas, shortish version on the 07 issues: It's got about 3k miles with a relatively recent top end; mods consist of an aftermarket intake, Speedworx Y-pipe, expansion chamber, and can. Ran fine through most of the morning the first time out, wouldn't start up after it sat for a while while we dug the 08 out of the treewell I put it into. Pulled two plugs (one from each chamber, which looked good), turned it over, put 'em back in and it fired up. Rode it from Henderson back into Cooke, it died on Main Street, moved a little after forty minutes, and then wouldn't start later that day or the next morning. Towed it out, got it back home, still wouldn't start until after I started checking things under the hood. At first, it seemed to be related to the handlebar harness, but then it started acting up with that unplugged, too. It intermittently ran fine, and intermittently would idle moderately high (3kish), then drop below idle (1200ish) and die.

Stator ohmed slightly out of spec on the injector coil. Replaced stator, fired it up, ran fine for 10-15 minutes in my driveway and loading onto the trailer. Got it back to Cooke, ran fine for 2-3 hours (some parked/off time, including while we changed the busted belt on the 08, but mostly running), died and wouldn't restart. Pulling plugs, turning it over with them out, and then putting them back in after dipping in the fuel tank (someone suggested a smidge of extra fuel) and it ran for a few minutes; likewise after swapping the plugs for a brandy-new set. Plugs were damp and smelled like fuel/oil mix, but they also seem to have at least decent spark when pulled over.

[kidwoo]

It's tough to broadly comment about the reliability of sleds when your point of reference has an entirely aftermarket exhaust and intake system.

You've got a fuel controller on there too right? You should with that setup. Those things do act up when they get old (as well as when just deviating from the conditions it's mapped for).

Do you still have the stock intake?

It sounds like you know what's up with regards to looking at plugs. If you've got wet plugs that's almost like it's overheating and dumping fuel....which is what they all do when the ECUs think the motor is overheated. That 07 come from someone at a similar elevation as cooke?

[cycology1]

I picked up a pair of sleds (07 and 08 M8s) about a month ago, been to Cooke twice, and learned a lot. Unfortunately, part of what I learned was how to jerry-rig a sled after breaking a-arms on a tree so you can ride it out, and how much it costs to have the dealer replace those A-arms so that you can ride back to your trailer while towing your other sled, which has developed mysterious running issues. I still haven't figured out how to get the damn things to actually carve a turn, but got a little closer last time out (repeatedly got up on edge while playing around, but had trouble getting it to actually change direction at that point).

I'd recommend going as new as you can afford, especially if you don't have a habit of wrenching on power toys. I thought '07 would be new enough, but I've heard "yeah, that's the problem with old sleds" more than few times since. I'd also recommend against going out into the woods with just one sled, unless you're both better at riding it and it's more reliable than mine have been.

Wow. tough first couple times out! I guess as others have already said, things will break and learning to ride is hard. I'm certain I would be close enough to a tree well to be in the same situation.

What amazes me is the valuation sellers put on their 2005-2007 era sleds ("old sleds"). Considering how many things CAN go wrong on 2 stroker sleds that have ridden the equivalent of a cross country trip or more, it seems that there should be a decent buffer when determining the fair selling price. I'm certain there are sleds that are reliable, but just as in VTskibums case, seems the sleds weren't in as good of shape as he was led to believe (speculation) AND/OR, 'old sleds' have issues.

[Wapow]

Post your questions on the Cat forum at Snowest. There are many experts there that can help identify the fix.

As for carving, it's very easy in deep snow and much more difficult on hardpack. To initiate a carve (a) countersteer in the opposite direction you want to carve (i.e. steer left initially to carve right), (b) apply the required amount of weight to the side you want to to carve toward (that can require slight leaning in good pow, to fully "wrong footing" on hardpack) and then give it a sufficient throttle blip to get the sled tipped into the carve. Once you are on edge, it should be pretty easy to maintain using the techniques described above. Knowing how to carve is essential for getting around in pow. It's also akin to "sidehilling" which is an essential skill for getting where you want to go in the mountains (and not wrecking your sled). Best way to learn both skills is to go to a hill that has nothing to hit at the bottom if you lose your sled and go at it until you figure it out.

[cycology1]

Just purchased a 06 Summit 800 163" track and currently exploring options for ski racks. Was thinking of buying these clamps: http://www.harborfreight.com/12-inch...amp-96214.html and securing them to the tunnel via some mounts made from aluminum angle stock. Seems like the clamps should hold skis relatively well and would likely only end up spending around $10-12 total per rack. Any recommendations on sizes of bolts to mount though the tunnel? Any structural integrity concerns with drilling holes past a certain diameter through the tunnel?

How is your 06 summit holding up?

[anotherVTskibum]

It's tough to broadly comment about the reliability of sleds when your point of reference has an entirely aftermarket exhaust and intake system.

Fair enough. The number of "that's how it is with old sleds" comments I've heard while trying to figure out the issue, though, has me scratching my head at whether or not my reliability expectations are off...I figured these would be similar to modern dirtbikes in terms of reliability and required maintenance levels.

You've got a fuel controller on there too right? You should with that setup. Those things do act up when they get old (as well as when just deviating from the conditions it's mapped for).

Do you still have the stock intake?

No fuel controller, unfortunately (If I did, it would at least be possible to tweak the fueling either way to see if the mixture was too rich or too lean to begin with). However, I'd also expect it to run poorly once warmed up if the fueling was off, not run fine for a few hours and then refuse to run entirely. It generally seems to run fairly well, although it tends to emit more grey exhaust smoke (looks more like a two-stroke, not anything I'd consider excessive) than the '08 does. FWIW, I tried pulling it over this afternoon, and it still won't start, even after sitting on the trailer for three days.

I don't have any of the stock parts, or they'd be back on the sled already.

It sounds like you know what's up with regards to looking at plugs. If you've got wet plugs that's almost like it's overheating and dumping fuel....which is what they all do when the ECUs think the motor is overheated. That 07 come from someone at a similar elevation as cooke?

Both sleds were in the Bozeman area and presumably used mostly at similar elevations. The 08 has aftermarket air filters on it but is otherwise stock.

Post your questions on the Cat forum at Snowest. There are many experts there that can help identify the fix.

Thanks, tried that. (https://www.snowest.com/forum/showthread.php?t=433120) Nobody's chimed in yet.

As for carving, it's very easy in deep snow and much more difficult on hardpack. To initiate a carve (a) countersteer in the opposite direction you want to carve (i.e. steer left initially to carve right), (b) apply the required amount of weight to the side you want to to carve toward (that can require slight leaning in good pow, to fully "wrong footing" on hardpack) and then give it a sufficient throttle blip to get the sled tipped into the carve. Once you are on edge, it should be pretty easy to maintain using the techniques described above. Knowing how to carve is essential for getting around in pow. It's also akin to "sidehilling" which is an essential skill for getting where you want to go in the mountains (and not wrecking your sled). Best way to learn both skills is to go to a hill that has nothing to hit at the bottom if you lose your sled and go at it until you figure it out.

So once it's up on edge, more throttle to get it to turn, then maintain throttle to hold that angle? I'm familiar with countersteering from the motorcycle world, but it's a lot easier on a bike.

Wow. tough first couple times out! I guess as others have already said, things will break and learning to ride is hard. I'm certain I would be close enough to a tree well to be in the same situation.

In fairness, that first ride was as much "you will break things" as "things will break." The sled was in no way responsible for the tree issue, that was 100% poor caddying on my part.

What amazes me is the valuation sellers put on their 2005-2007 era sleds ("old sleds"). Considering how many things CAN go wrong on 2 stroker sleds that have ridden the equivalent of a cross country trip or more, it seems that there should be a decent buffer when determining the fair selling price. I'm certain there are sleds that are reliable, but just as in VTskibums case, seems the sleds weren't in as good of shape as he was led to believe (speculation) AND/OR, 'old sleds' have issues.

While I don't know the previous owners of the sleds well, I do know them well enough to be fairly confident that they weren't totally BSing me about reliability prior to purchase, and they reported no trouble at all. There are a lot of variables, though, and it's possible they just happened to sell them at exactly the right time.

[simple]

Snowmobiles got reliable once they became fuel injected. Fuck carbs. With EFI when you get stuck you flip it over, start it, and ride away. I'm at 3,000 miles with stock plugs.

Did the same thing with the dirt bike. Fuel injected is great and custom computer mapping gets the power down with the flick of a switch.

Just saying...

[kidwoo]

Shit I thought those 07s were efi.

Is yours carbed? You said you could change the fueling so I assume so. If it is then disregard what I said about overheating causing it do dump fuel obviously. That's ECU/fuel injection bidness.


I'm assuming this is what you have: http://www.speedwerxstore.com/index....t_detail&p=897

Mentions a controller. I know that's the same year Arctic cat was making both carbed and injected M7s......

I saw your thread on snowest. That place is usually much more responsive. Everyone in minnesota must be chilling at the lake at this point in the year. It might be worth cross checking part numbers between 08 and 07 M8s. You have the 08 sitting there. Maybe poaching the stock parts and see if you can get the 07 running better. (Only if they're the same parts obviously). It still sounds like you might be running a little lean. Especially if the previous owner rode somewhere high like the bighorns.


On the larger issue of older sleds, that's right about when they started not sucking (mostly because of what simple said). I just sold a 2010 M8 with 3.5k on it with zero issues. And spent years tandem riding with a buddies 08 with no problems. Sorry this is your first sled experience. There's something to be said for buying older models...people have learned their problems and how to fix them. Ask anyone who bought a 2008 Rev, a 2011 polaris pro, a 2012 arctic cat m8 or half the people with 2017 skidoo Gen4s when they were new.



edit: I don't know man. Doesn't look like there is a carbed 07 m8. I still think you've got a fuel problem.

[Wapow]

I would liken carving a sled to a combo of snowboarding and motocross. You need to use body position, steering and most importantly, throttle modulation to make the track plane on the the angle you want (like a snowboard). Once it's at that angle, you can hold and adjust the turn pretty easily (in pow). If you're carving left and you want to increase the turn, you need to add more angle to the track (by counter steering, weight shifting and/or throttle bursting). Some more tips: Stand up when you're learning riding technique. Wear snowboard boots or something of the sort, and carry your ski boots in a dry bag in your rack. Invest in a good ski rack, like Mo Pros or CFR. They're built to last and your skis won't get trashed if/when you roll the sled with them on it.

As for older sleds, they are perfectly reliable if they are super well maintained. High milage scares me more than vintage. There's probably something relatively simple wrong with your sled (which doesn't mean a cheap fix - rather it's happened often enough to that model year that somebody knows the fix). I'd search Snowest and maybe call a dealer and ask to talk to a tech. Actually might be worth getting it looked at by the dealer, if you have the scratch. Good dealer is key. Maybe the most important aspect when picking which brand to buy.

[anotherVTskibum]

Shit I thought those 07s were efi.

They are EFI, which was part of the appeal. I like fuel injection, especially when potentially dealing with 5,000-foot differences in elevation and 60-degree differences in ambient air temp.

Shit I thought those 07s were efi.
I'm assuming this is what you have: http://www.speedwerxstore.com/index....t_detail&p=897

Looks right, but I'm hoping it's the 5,000-ft.+ version.

I saw your thread on snowest. That place is usually much more responsive. Everyone in minnesota must be chilling at the lake at this point in the year. It might be worth cross checking part numbers between 08 and 07 M8s. You have the 08 sitting there. Maybe poaching the stock parts and see if you can get the 07 running better. (Only if they're the same parts obviously). It still sounds like you might be running a little lean. Especially if the previous owner rode somewhere high like the bighorns.

Yeah, the trouble with the "swap parts" theory is twofold:

1. It seems like only riding for several hours will conclusively show the issue
2. I don't want to reduce reliability on the '08, because I may need to use it to tow out the '07

The throttle-body assembly is the same between both sleds, based on part number, and I went the ebay route and ordered a stock '07 intake and '08 TB assembly (the latter largely for the injectors, which I doubt are the problem, but which should be easy enough to swap).

On the larger issue of older sleds, that's right about when they started not sucking (mostly because of what simple said). I just sold a 2010 M8 with 3.5k on it with zero issues. And spent years tandem riding with a buddies 08 with no problems. Sorry this is your first sled experience. There's something to be said for buying older models...people have learned their problems and how to fix them. Ask anyone who bought a 2008 Rev, a 2011 polaris pro, a 2012 arctic cat m8 or half the people with 2017 skidoo Gen4s when they were new.

That's reassuring, thanks.

I would liken carving a sled to a combo of snowboarding and motocross. You need to use body position, steering and most importantly, throttle modulation to make the track plane on the the angle you want (like a snowboard). Once it's at that angle, you can hold and adjust the turn pretty easily (in pow). If you're carving left and you want to increase the turn, you need to add more angle to the track (by counter steering, weight shifting and/or throttle bursting). Some more tips: Stand up when you're learning riding technique. Wear snowboard boots or something of the sort, and carry your ski boots in a dry bag in your rack. Invest in a good ski rack, like Mo Pros or CFR. They're built to last and your skis won't get trashed if/when you roll the sled with them on it.

As for older sleds, they are perfectly reliable if they are super well maintained. High milage scares me more than vintage. There's probably something relatively simple wrong with your sled (which doesn't mean a cheap fix - rather it's happened often enough to that model year that somebody knows the fix). I'd search Snowest and maybe call a dealer and ask to talk to a tech. Actually might be worth getting it looked at by the dealer, if you have the scratch. Good dealer is key. Maybe the most important aspect when picking which brand to buy.

Thanks for that, too. I've got two issues with the "drop it at the dealer" theory: there isn't a truly local dealer (I'm in Red Lodge, Mont., there's not much that's truly local), and the intermittent nature of the problem suggests that even a good tech could fix something that's not quite right, inadvertently change the status of the intermittent issue without solving it, and think the problem is solved...which I wouldn't find out about until riding again. I'd prefer not to throw more cash at the problem if I can help it, but I'd be okay with that if I knew it would solve the problem. I did have a good experience with the dealer in Cooke City, but that's an hour and a half away in summer, longer with the Beartooth Pass closed.

[adrenalated]

Generally speaking those M8s are pretty damn reliable. I have a lot of friends that ride them with no issues. I agree it sounds like a fuel problem. Dumb question, but were you using new gas, or was there old gas sitting in the tank? I had some similar issues with my 05 M7 right after I bought it, turned out to just be bad gas.

As for carving in deep snow being easy... maybe it is for some people, but in my experience it will take most people some time to learn. It's easier said than done IME. I know to do all the shit Wapow explained but I'm not always successful at it. Newer sleds make it a lot easier though.

[crashidy]

I look at it this way. Arctic cat are pretty much bomb proof frames. Easy to tandem. Good power, fairly reliable from 13 and up. Hard to turn in low snow if you don't know what you are doing.
Polaris new axys is a strong motor, great for playing in the trees however get beat and broken with tandeming. Older polaris pro rmk have some good fixes to make them work great and provide reliability. Tippy as can be.
Ski do etec is awesome, pull and go. Generally good for 10000km. Some models more stable than other.
As alluded earlier a group of people riding the same sled is helpful. Who around you is a good dealer? Good service? Etc. I ride with all types but generally doo because the dealers around here are "better" or more of them.
They all have their nuances but are great machines. Not cheap but weekend some coin and rent each type. Also add time consuming at it is their is a ton of info in this thread.
Enjoy!

[crashidy]

They get you to some fun places.

[kidwoo]

I got back to you on snowest.

If you have an efi sled, especially with a pipe, you're either running a controller or fuel is strictly controlled by the stock ECU. You said you can change the fueling but the only way this is possible on an efi sled is through a controller or an ECU reflash. You can't do a reflash without software and proprietary connectors.

You're looking for a box that looks like one of these:







You're absolutely sure you have nothing like that under the hood? It's likely ziptied onto something.

If you don't, that's likely a problem. If you do, check all the connections (especially the ground). I didn't mean switching parts with your 08 as any kind of permanent measure. Just to see if the problem persists. At this point just to see if the damn thing starts. But first you need to find out what's going on with tuning for that pipe. Find your stock ECU up in the nose under the hood. Follow the connections and see if you find one of those boxes anywhere.

As said, those arctic cats are bomber. But yours has been messed with so you need to find out exactly to what degree and how. But the intermittent stuff, and only under certain conditions: Welcome to electronics in snowmobiles

[anotherVTskibum]

I got back to you on snowest.
...
You're absolutely sure you have nothing like that under the hood? It's likely ziptied onto something.

If you don't, that's likely a problem. If you do, check all the connections (especially the ground). I didn't mean switching parts with your 08 as any kind of permanent measure. Just to see if the problem persists. At this point just to see if the damn thing starts. But first you need to find out what's going on with tuning for that pipe. Find your stock ECU up in the nose under the hood. Follow the connections and see if you find one of those boxes anywhere.

As said, those arctic cats are bomber. But yours has been messed with so you need to find out exactly to what degree and how. But the intermittent stuff, and only under certain conditions: Welcome to electronics in snowmobiles

Thanks for the help.

Yeah, I'm 100% sure I don't have anything modifying the stock fuel map. I did get a copy of the install instructions on the y-pipe/single pipe combo from Speedworx, and if installed with an intake, they recommend changing the fueling and provide specs to do so; without an intake, they don't recommend changing the fuel map. The '08 has an aftermarket intake (but stock exhaust), so I did a bit of eBay shopping and found a stock intake, which should be here when I get back from next week's Canadian skiing adventure (which, fortunately, did not involve sleds at any point in planning).

I'm still pretty puzzled as to how incorrect fueling would result in a "runs great, then stops running" situation, but I figure it makes sense to correct the obvious issues first.

[anotherVTskibum]

Generally speaking those M8s are pretty damn reliable. I have a lot of friends that ride them with no issues. I agree it sounds like a fuel problem. Dumb question, but were you using new gas, or was there old gas sitting in the tank? I had some similar issues with my 05 M7 right after I bought it, turned out to just be bad gas.

As for carving in deep snow being easy... maybe it is for some people, but in my experience it will take most people some time to learn. It's easier said than done IME. I know to do all the shit Wapow explained but I'm not always successful at it. Newer sleds make it a lot easier though.

The tank was about half-full of old gas when I got the sled and filled it up with 91 non-ethanol. The first outing burnt through about 3.3 gallons in that tank, which I again filled before the second outing. Draining the tank and going with fresh fuel probably wouldn't be a bad idea, either.

[kidwoo]

I'm still pretty puzzled as to how incorrect fueling would result in a "runs great, then stops running" situation, but I figure it makes sense to correct the obvious issues first.

Because incorrect fueling could cause it to go into a failsafe mode from overheating. Even newer sleds do this. Then injectors get shut off or dump fuel like crazy and flood things out. It could also cause damage that would lead to a condition doing the same thing.

And a fuel controller that's messed up could just not be sending fuel at all. But it sounds like you know it's not that at least.


FYI no intake made works better than stock on those M series. They all cause more problems than they fix (which is nothing).

[adrenalated]

The tank was about half-full of old gas when I got the sled and filled it up with 91 non-ethanol. The first outing burnt through about 3.3 gallons in that tank, which I again filled before the second outing. Draining the tank and going with fresh fuel probably wouldn't be a bad idea, either.

Yeah, do that first before you chase a bunch of other stuff. Better than 50% chance that old fuel in the tank is your problem.

[kidwoo]

^^Especially if it's ethanol.


If you live at high elevation (over 6-7k), running lower octane is fine. It's also more likely that you'll be getting fresher gas too since fewer people go through 91 at most gas stations.