HD Camcorder

[Dawn Patrol]

Looking to get my bro an HD camcorder for his wedding present. It'll be used to film skiing, surfing and probably other random stuffs. He wants to be able to make DVD's. I'm really confused by the differences between HDV and AHICIDEDEWEEWEEDSD2.559752 or whatever it is. Help! ps. He is getting married in like a week and a half so time is of the essence. Thanks!

[Tippster]

Panasonic HDC-SD9



Records to SD or SDHC cards. Nice lens, nice viewfinder, nice camera.

This thing looks pretty fun as well:



Sanyo Xacti HD1010

[LivinCO]

I just bought the Cannon HF10 and took it on vacation. It's a sick camera for the $. I got a package deal on ebay similar to this:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=150301263123

I researched HD camcorders for 2 months before deciding, FWIW.

[Dawn Patrol]

Thanks guys. What is your reason for picking those particular models? Anyone have an opinion on the JVC GZ-HD7?

[altabird92]

the sd9 doesnt have a viewfinder
it still looks great though

[Tippster]

Ack - yep, no VF on the SD-9

[Tippster]

Thanks guys. What is your reason for picking those particular models? Anyone have an opinion on the JVC GZ-HD7?

Smaller, doesn't record to HDD, newer tech, better manufacturer rep (I'm also not a big fan of Fujinon Lenses, but that's a personal preference.) Mainly I'd rather take an SDHC card out of the camera and plug it into the reader I already have for my still camera, then use it to edit with while someone else can keep shooting w/the camera. That may be my professional bias, however, where I'd always want the ability to hand off a "tape" and keep shooting.

I just thought the Sanyo looked neat, like a small version of our old Super 8mm Film cameras with the vertical grip. Really no reason for a solid state camera to have a tape style minicamera configuration... I would find the pistol grip more comfortable. I don't like that it records in MP4, but it's the first 1080p consumer camera.

[altabird92]

the sanyo looks cool and has some fast frame rates, but ive heard bad things about the lens, such as bad aberrations
http://www.trustedreviews.com/camcor...-VPC-HD1000/p1
here is a review of the original version

the hd7 certainly doesnt look smaller, and has gotten some good reviews based on what i have read
here is the HD7 review
http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content...der-Review.htm
great build quality, not avchd and a viewfinder

[Tippster]

Oh, the Panny SD-9 is about 2/3 the size of that JVC -- easier to stick back into your coat pocket.

[Colorado_Freeskier]

I've had a Panasonic SD5 for about a year and I'm really happy with it. Big advantage of a flash based camcorder is that you can use it above 10K feet, unlike the hard drive based camcorders. The Panasonic and Canon HF11 or 10 are probably your best bet. When I looked at the Sanyo a year ago, they still didn't have optical image stabilization, so IMO it is a waste of money. Here's my review of the SD5:

http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=99509

The footage is stunning just like most HD camcorders. The production company my firm owns, uses the Canons.

Here is some non-HD footage (reduced size also) from the SD5...handheld with high winds at Aspen Highlands:

http://web.mac.com/colorado_freeskie...nHighlands.m4v

[Dawn Patrol]

What about HDV vs. AVCHD? I've heard HDV has better image quality and is easier to work with. Whats the advantage of avchd?

[Dawn Patrol]

And what about sensor size? Is this as big of a deal with video as it is with stills? I noticed the sensors range from like 1/6" to over 3"... Argh..

[Tippster]

A 3" sensor? no way. Professional video cameras have 2/3" chips in them.

3 CCD (The Panny, Canon, and JVC) will be better than one, but a single chip can be OK. If you go with a single sensor cam, get one with a CMOS chip (like the Sanyo Xacti.)

[Dawn Patrol]

A 3" sensor? no way. Professional video cameras have 2/3" chips in them.

3 CCD (The Panny, Canon, and JVC) will be better than one, but a single chip can be OK. If you go with a single sensor cam, get one with a CMOS chip (like the Sanyo Xacti.)

You're right, I was comparing two different spec sheets and they had phrased the sizing differently... The canon hf10 and 11 only have one. But camcorderinfo really seems to like them. I'm leaning that way right now.

[Dawn Patrol]

This is what really worries me about avchd:

Camcorderinfo:

Both the GZ-HD7 and the AVCHD camcorders displayed ghostly trails from moving objects, but they were more noticeable in the AVCHD models. That said, in a side-by-side comparison, the Canon HV20 (Review, Specs, Recent News, $903) and Sony HDR-HC7 (Review, Specs, Recent News, $1128.56) (both HDV) produced much smoother motion and retained more detail in pans and tilts. HDV compression wins this portion of the performance hands down.

Thoughts?

[snow_slider]

The three chip cameras offer better color separation, but the downside is poorer low light performance (at least in the consumer level cameras). I have a 3 chip Pana and love it, but it's not as good as my Dad's single chip Sony in low light situations.

[4-TEEF]

The three chip cameras offer better color separation, but the downside is poorer low light performance (at least in the consumer level cameras). I have a 3 chip Pana and love it, but it's not as good as my Dad's single chip Sony in low light situations.

Hhhhhmmmm. My experience has been different than that but the same also. Here is what I mean -> Sony's generally have the best low light performance of any consumer cams but the 3CCD Sony cam that I used had better low light performance than the 1CCD Sony's cams I tried. So... maybe you're seeing Sony vs Pana differences instead of 3CCD vs 1 CCD differences.

[snow_slider]

Hhhhhmmmm. My experience has been different than that but the same also. Here is what I mean -> Sony's generally have the best low light performance of any consumer cams but the 3CCD Sony cam that I used had better low light performance than the 1CCD Sony's cams I tried. So... maybe you're seeing Sony vs Pana differences instead of 3CCD vs 1 CCD differences.

That's possible, but I was led to believe it was due to the smaller chip size in the 3 CCD cams.


WOW, my 2000th post.

[Atrain505]

Unless you have a really fast computer they are both a bitch to edit.
HDV and AVCHD.
AVCHD is compressed more...i.e. worse image in a basic sense.
Because of the compression it takes far more processor speed to edit it/render/etc.
But you don't have tapes...which is a big advantage, because tapes cost money.

[mushmouth]

BUMPITY BUMP!!!

What's the updated consensus in here on AVCHD versus HDV?

I'm thinking my way between the Canon HV30 and HF100.

I think the last I read from Trackhead was that AVCHD was the bain of his existence, but that was several months ago...any new insight into editing AVCHD?

One of the knocks I read on AVCHD, at least from last year, was that it was inferior at capturing action, has this changed with 2008 models (HF10-100)?

I won't be a heavy user of the product until early spring 09 and won't be doing serious editing until fall 09. However I would like to use the winter to get used to get accustomed to the devices tendencies. Is there certain technology on the horizon in terms of either hardware or software that will be shifting the argument decisively into one format or the other?

I saw Kidwoo (I think it was you) mention in a post about returning the HV30 for the HF100...why was that decision made and what are your thoughts on the decision now?

EDIT: Might as well throw the HF11 into the mix...

[matanuskaski]

I have been doing a lot of research recently into this same subject that seems to come up quite often. Things seem to be evolving so quickly that it's almost hard to keep up. The new canon HF-11 currently offers the highest bitrate available for avchd 24mbps. Yet obviously it boils down to a whole lot more than simple numbers. Panasonic recently came out with an interesting replacement to the SD-9 the SD-100 offering a new 3mos sensor system to offer better low light, but you can only record at a maximum bitrate of 17. The panasonic does offer a manual focus ring and some other nice things absent on other models. All in all I'm not quite satisfied with any of the cameras in a price point I can actually afford yet. Things are quickly approaching though. I'm picky though so I would imagine most people would be more than pleased with the hd7, SD100, or HF11.

[kidwoo]

I saw Kidwoo (I think it was you) mention in a post about returning the HV30 for the HF100...why was that decision made and what are your thoughts on the decision now?

I bought an HV30 and returned it within two weeks. It sucked balls for motion. This is due to the CMOS/rolling shutter setup. You ever watch youtube etc vids and it looks like the image wavers, kind of like looking through jello? That's cannon CMOS for ya.

The CMOS chips do some things well like better low light sensitivity and lower power consumption but nobody makes one without a rolling shutter yet. Canons seem to be the worst of the bunch.

I got a panny HDC SD9 and am really happy with it. I think they're only about 600 bucks now. Just make sure that whatever you are going to use for editing can support AVCHD formats. My editor can't but you can download a free program from panasonic that converts AVCHD files into another more supported panasonic format (dvcproHD). That's what I do.

I'll put up some clips when I get home of some footage if you want. The only reason I bought the thing was to use as a pov/helmet cam. So the scanning shutter of a CMOS canon was fuggin miserable. What ends up happening is that small shakes get WAY exaggerated and distorted.

As far as low light sensitivity, if you're going to go shoot skiing.......you're never in low light, don't worry about it

[Tippster]

Don't get too hung up on bitrate for home video cameras. Yes 24mbps is 2x as high as say 12, but if you're compressing the final output for viewing on youtube or even vimeo then it really doesn't matter, since those sites will re-compress your video.

Just as a reality check - current standard definition broadcast DVCPro is 25mbps for longer record times, 50mbps for "HQ" standard def., and 100mbps for 720p HD.

A good standard def. camera shot in 16x9, like the Panasonic AG DVX100B, will look amazing even upconverted to HD (it's just line doubling anyway.) Those cameras run ~$2000 on eBay - you may want to consider one.

[kidwoo]

A good standard def. camera shot in 16x9, like the Panasonic AG DVX100B, will look amazing even upconverted to HD (it's just line doubling anyway.) Those cameras run ~$2000 on eBay - you may want to consider one.

Yeah I back this.


This is my 'primary' camera and you can do some really impressive things with it that you can't with those little consumer HD cameras. Plus you won't be as likely to completely destroy your computer with HD footage.

And yes the image of a standard definition DVX100b looks better than any of those little hd cams.

But it also doesn't fit in your pocket

[mushmouth]

I bought an HV30 and returned it within two weeks. It sucked balls for motion.

The CMOS chips do some things well like better low light sensitivity and lower power consumption but nobody makes one without a rolling shutter yet. Canons seem to be the worst of the bunch.

I got a panny HDC SD9 and am really happy with it. I think they're only about 600 bucks now. Just make sure that whatever you are going to use for editing can support AVCHD formats. My editor can't but you can download a free program from panasonic that converts AVCHD files into another more supported panasonic format (dvcproHD). That's what I do.

As far as low light sensitivity, if you're going to go shoot skiing.......you're never in low light, don't worry about it

Thanks for the insight.

Actually, this is primarily going to be used for shooting fishing related material, likely go underwater (not deep) in housing (next purchase). Essentially this means there's going to be a lot of steady scenics with the only real motion coming from very natural movements, which although can be quick at times, are not jittery or shaky like biking or skiing. Still sucky for this?

Don't get too hung up on bitrate for home video cameras. Yes 24mbps is 2x as high as say 12, but if you're compressing the final output for viewing on youtube or even vimeo then it really doesn't matter, since those sites will re-compress your video.

Just as a reality check - current standard definition broadcast DVCPro is 25mbps for longer record times, 50mbps for "HQ" standard def., and 100mbps for 720p HD.

A good standard def. camera shot in 16x9, like the Panasonic AG DVX100B, will look amazing even upconverted to HD (it's just line doubling anyway.) Those cameras run ~$2000 on eBay - you may want to consider one.

My price range is near $1000, tops, considering the anscillary items I know will accumulate quickly.

Since I won't ultimately be viewing a final product on all material for likely a year from now, and in my mind I imagine watching this (and feel free to tell me I'm crazy in this line of thought) in HD on blu-ray DVD at home. Still anti-HD in this case? Is this idiot vid-jong line of thinking?

Yeah I back this.


This is my 'primary' camera and you can do some really impressive things with it that you can't with those little consumer HD cameras. Plus you won't be as likely to completely destroy your computer with HD footage.

And yes the image of a standard definition DVX100b looks better than any of those little hd cams.

But it also doesn't fit in your pocket

Traveling with the product will be essential...lots of walking and more than likely self-filming so semi-stowability and ease of use is a big factor. I imagine it would be tough carrying a couple of rods, tackle, etc along with a clunky cam.

Regarding destroying a computer with HD footage is that a storage issue, or processing issue? If storage, can external drives cover this? and if processing, how might those who do it, do it?

I feel like I'm obviously self talking myself into HD for potentially no reason and against better judgment, but do the criticisms against HD and AVCHD change when my above mentioned uses come into play?