186 Lhasa Pow Brocker mounted tele - Review

[pechelman]

One thing I might consider in the future is a slightly more rear mount.

great update!

can you do me a favor and measure where your pinline is located in relation to the tail with a straight tape?
and what size boot?

[bodywhomper]

One thing I might consider in the future is a slightly more rear mount.

how come?

[soul_skier]

I really think you should sell me your tabla rasas and rock the brockers full time, seriously, if you wind up selling them, let me know

[splat]

Update: Took them out on Friday to the 'Bird, got about 15K of tram laps in, with fresh shots each run, before things got tracked out and I switched over to the hardpack skis. Snow was 1-3 feet of fresh light powder (lighter than Argentina's more maritime pack) with plenty of exposure beneath the new snow surface.

The Lhasas AbsoFuckingLutely kill it, and my already-high opinion of them has increased measurably. I felt like I was in some Tom Clancy XboX game on a Powder Search & Destroy mission. Stay forward and drive them, porpoise and jibe, face shot and slarve, they just did it, whether pulling parallels or cranking off linked tele turns. Running through rockfields and off features was not a smart thing to do this early in the season, but they floated above the submarine snowsnakes so well, I only ended up with minor scuffs on the bases, even after raking 'em over hidden features. They handled fine on the groomers back to the tram as well. My early-season legs did tire after awhile, but I chalk that up to just being out of shape.

One thing I might consider in the future is a slightly more rear mount.

That might well be the first real deep powder tele review of the Lhasa 186 ever, TU. Thanks. Pics, pleeeeeeeeze.
Lhasa Pow, FUCK YEAH!

[BigRed]

pechelman -
I have an early pair with the 188's that Pat sent me over the summer. I mounted them in a couple different spots. I found the balance point to be roughly 5" in front of the boot center mark that pat put on the skis. This roughly put my ball of foot (size 28.5 boots) on the boot center line for the alpine set up. I also mounted them forward + 2.5 cms but found the tail to slightly hook on my uphill ski in harder snow. So I am leaning towards the straight balance point. I searched and read tons of posts about tele mounting positions - there's quite a bit out there. But what sold me this mounting point was realizing how much I actually weight the uphill (dropped knee) ski in soft snow. Your center of gravity on the ski is way forward with your knee bent - so you don't need to mount as far forward.

Tri-Ungulate -
Very jealous of your deep day at the bird on these skis... I can't wait to get my pair into deeper snow. So far I have only skied them in corn. I'll be in Utah over thanksgiving weekend visiting the folks if you want to meet up and mess around with mounting locations. You definitely could try the pair that I have mounted on balance point.

[pechelman]

188s?
im asking about the 186 rockers aka lhasa pow.
but if that applies to the 186s rockers, then thanks.
theres right about where i told my friend to mount my old rockers for telewhacking

pat, i gave the super stiff proto 186s to rontele, and im sure we'll have another super deep tele review sometime in the future
for those wondering, i said for them to put his 320mm bsl boot mounted at 95cm with a straight tape from the tail to his pin line.

[splat]

Big Red got the 188 tops on his 186s. He has my old pair.
The tip is actually more precise to measure the centerline or pinline from.
I know the big guys like to pull from the tail...
We typically pull the tape straight back, tape latch hung over the tip center, no bending of the tape in the tip.
Kinda like a hypotenuse.
Alpine boot centerline is 1040 mm by that measurement.

[BigRed]

yup...188 topsheet on lhasas. Thanks for the clarification Pat.

here they are:
http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/s....php?p=2073338

[splat]

Hey, between you two, when you figure out the optimal pin line location, please measure it from the tips as described above and let me know so I can pass it on to other tele peeps.

[frorider]

howdy Pat -- fyi, the modern tele world does not talk about pinline mount location anymore. the so-called tele ski mfgers finally pulled their collective heads out of their collective asses during the last coupla years, and is marking topsheets in a 'boot size specific' manner.

i.e. they are essentially doing what tele gear heads have been doing for years -- mounting the bindiings based on the boot midsole relation to the optimum 'tele midsole' location on the ski. (note that the binding jig is still positioned relative to a 'pinline' but that's not relevant to the positioning we're discussing here).

so now that you've determined what you feel is the best alpine midsole location (measured from the tip), all you gots to do now is decide how much (if any) to change that recommended midsole location for your tele customers. in my vast and unrivalled experience , that optimum tele midsole location won't be much different than the alpine one. Perhaps a little behind it.

[splat]

Thanks, frorider!
It's about time, dammit.

[bodywhomper]

howdy Pat -- fyi, the modern tele world does not talk about pinline mount location anymore. the so-called tele ski mfgers finally pulled their collective heads out of their collective asses during the last coupla years, and is marking topsheets in a 'boot size specific' manner.

i.e. they are essentially doing what tele gear heads have been doing for years -- mounting the bindiings based on the boot midsole relation to the optimum 'tele midsole' location on the ski. (note that the binding jig is still positioned relative to a 'pinline' but that's not relevant to the positioning we're discussing here).

so now that you've determined what you feel is the best alpine midsole location (measured from the tip), all you gots to do now is decide how much (if any) to change that recommended midsole location for your tele customers. in my vast and unrivalled experience , that optimum tele midsole location won't be much different than the alpine one. Perhaps a little behind it.

ain't the tooled binding jigs all still designed for mounting up the pin line?

[Sloafer11']

ain't the tooled binding jigs all still designed for mounting up the pin line?

I believe he answered that already, here:

(note that the binding jig is still positioned relative to a 'pinline' but that's not relevant to the positioning we're discussing here).

[critical-motion]

that optimum tele midsole location won't be much different than the alpine one. Perhaps a little behind it.

I agree 1000%, especially with twin tips that tend to have a lot of tail. The Pow's look to be great tele skis- no weird reverse sidecut, light weight, slight twin tip, etc.

[BigRed]

I would argue that there is still some merit to thinking about the pin line though even if ski mfrs start marking the skis differently. Pine lines seem to line up right on if not exactly on the free pivot point in the BD 01's for example. I like to have the pin line right on the balance point so the ski holds in a neutral balance when kick-turning or lifting up the skis. But if you are not going to tour on these skis, maybe it doesn't matter.

I found that with the Lhasa's mounted with the pin line on the balance point it puts the alpine boot center mark that Pat put on the skis right at the Ball of Foot on my boots (28.5). This skied very well in harder snow and climbed very easily as well. Ball of Foot and center of chord is a whole other tele mounting discussion - tons on stuff on Ttips and tgr.

Either way, there is likely a range of mounting locations that will work for these skis based on your preference.

[bodywhomper]

I believe he answered that already, here:

thanks. good end of the work day reading comprehension, eh?

i'm curious what tri-u is hoping to get with a little further back mount (maybe my reading comprehension is off again). if yer mounting with epoxy and don't mind extra holes, might as well try moving the mounting point.

BigRed, 'based on preference'. fer skis like this, the biggest challenge for a tele skier is figuring out what yer preference would be. Of course, for PM Gear, the challenge is being able to clearly inform a customer where to mount or clearly describe the several different mounting locations based on preference and bindings. From a customer relation standpoint, the later is a pretty tall order.

back in the day when there were fewer bindings and all had more similarities in performance, rotte used to experiment with mounting locations, using a relatively large sample size of users. they had good resources and there was generally a smaller sample size of ski types at that time. as an indie company, pm gear may have a great sampling and get good quality feedback about this stuff, but they definitely don't have a very large sample size nor the resources to get a ton of testers out there on their boards all experimenting with various mounting points who provide constant feedback. from my own experience, most tele skiers drop their stuff off at a shop, ask for the skis to be mounted at the 'correct spot', and don't wanna think about mounting location unless the shop tech asks (which usually comes with a blank-stare response ).

though, it's definitely useful to discuss and understand the merits of various mounting locations, it seems simplest and most user-friendly, IMHO, to have a single location for the downhill oriented skier (how many tele skiers are actually out there touring). those concerned or thoughtful enough to consider the mounting location and how it relates to kick-turns and such can find threads like these, discuss with their local shop tech, who hopefully have some knowledge on the subject, or play around with their own home mount. the other option is the K2 style inserts, which i've never been a fan of.

my $0.02

[splat]

We like to think that what we lack in quantity of testers for pinpointing tele binding location is compensated for by the quality of the testers we find here in maggotdom. And preference always seems to be an overriding variable that will lend itself to those never-ending TTips threads about such things. However, I'm sure if I could get Mitch or Big Tim to nail a mount point, it would be considered gospel and never questioned.

[Tye 1on]

So is the AT mount halfway between the tele and alpine points?


[okayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy, guess someone here ain't concentrating much at work now, are we.....]

[Tri-Ungulate]

Sorry it took me so long to respond - I've haven't checked in lately.

Tape from tip to pinline (direct) is 89cm; from the tail it's 95cm. This is for 27.5 mondo Crispis and/or 27.0 mondo Scarpas. In general, my tele mounting philosophy is here.

As frorider mentions, a lot of us (including me) tend to go by center boot/boot center mount (CB/BC) these days for more "modern" shapes, which is why I essentially went with the alpine mount.

But - it looks like going with ball of foot on the boot center mount line (BoF/BC) might be the way to go. I think this is what BigRed has done with his setup. Since the BoF is a 1-2cm ahead of the BC, this moves the mount back 1-2 cm.

bodywhomper asks why..? Well, actually I'm reasonably happy with my current mount, but I think that the Lhasas are easier to flip around than I originally thought and don't really need the more forward mount. Moving back a tad would allow for a bit more of a cruise-y feel, with little loss of initiation agility, especially in pow, which is what the Lhasas are really designed for anyway.

I think the Lhasas have a big enough sweet spot that anything from CB/BC to BoF/BC is fine.

[TeleThor]

pechelman -
Your center of gravity on the ski is way forward with your knee bent - so you don't need to mount as far forward.

if that's the case then you're not doing it right. c.o.g. should be right between your boots. at least in mine and many others' opinions.

However, I'm sure if I could get Mitch or Big Tim to nail a mount point, it would be considered gospel and never questioned.

if you could get them to pick one mounting location, my hat is off to you. don't forget that it would set off hundreds of explosive tele mounting point threads.

i just go by the recommended alpine marks, stand back and visualize it, move accordingly and bam, i have a mount. maybe not super scientific, but it's worked very well for me. one thing i will add is that with rockered or reverse camber ski, just like with an alpine mount, on tele, you don't have worry about tip dive. so why not mount it on the alpine mark?

now i just need to work on procuring some of these said lhasa pows. i did recently get some used 188s. will be fun to see how they ski once the doc clears me for ski duty. game on.

[Tri-Ungulate]

I'll add that somewhere between CB/BC and BoF/BC could be a good compromise for a wishy-washy person like me. Which would be 1cm behind the alpine mount for general practical purposes.

[JONG Q Public]

I agree with you guys on the mounting points. My 200cm 120s are mounted boot center (pins to heel) at the alpine boot center mark. This is perfect for that ski. I plan on mounting my 105s 1-2cm back. If the rocker on the 105s is the same as the 120s (I don't think it will be) then I will mount them on the alpine boot center mark. If the rocker is less then I will move then back depending on how much less. My guess with out seeing the skis yet is I will end up 1-2cm back which is what Tri U is saying.

James

[BigRed]

if that's the case then you're not doing it right. c.o.g. should be right between your boots. at least in mine and many others' opinions.

Well, maybe you misunderstood. I am referring to just the uphill ski. When your knee is dropped your center of gravity on the uphill ski is roughly over your shin. This is way forward relative to where you are connected to the ski - so it creates a long tail to the ski which can be a hard to control. That is why I find mounting a bit further back helpful. And we are only talking a few centimeters anyways. And either way, your center of gravity changes throughout the tele turn. Pat, we'll find you a good mounting point.

Oh, and in mine and many other's opinions, I have been doing it right for some time.