EMT, WEMT, or OEC for Ski Patrol?

[The Dad]

would an OEC and one year of volunteering on mount hood qualify me for paid resort work?

Totally depends resort to resort. I know that would fit Northstar's criteria from earlier this year.

[mnflyfish]

Most paid positions being advertised on the NSP website are worded OEC and or EMT required. That said there are a few that require one or the other. My current patrol requires OEC (apparently because of it's sport specific training) and all EMT's can sit for the exam but they still have to pass the OEC. Of course you wouldn't be interested in my area at this point in your life. If I remember Targhee is either OEC or EMT.

Speaking of the Ghee, took the family there in March and had one of the best ski vacations ever. I'm guessing you may know James, he was our driver from the Condos and ended up taking us to the Wolf one night that got a bit out of hand. Thankfully we brought my Dad along to watch the kids so the wife and I could play after hours.

Good Luck. I'll keep my eye on the NSP website for any info on specific resorts.

Jay

[skeedom]

im glad you had a good time at the ghee and in driggs. Many nights have ended crazy at the wolf. haha. i miss the teton valley more everyday im away. dont tell everyone how cool it is though, let em stay on the jackson side. lol

thanks for the help everyone. im pretty sure im gonna do the program. if it doesnt get me the job i hope for than ill pay for more training. i dont need money, i can survive off the calories from powder face shots.

thanks again all!

[mountaingeist]

glad to hear P.Eibs is still running the show, he is a overlooked legend in the wasatch.Some patrols will take on a prospective patroller or underage person as "trail crew".You learn Mt.risk management and get a feel if it's for you and vice versus.Be prepared to work hard,learn and keep your mouth shut.Emt is great but also comes with more laibility(you lose good samaritan coverage) as you are a professional rescuer.Also EMT is harder to keep current(you have to have so many c.m.e days) for me it was a pain to keep current guiding in the summer and patrolling in the winter. In my experience it's been harder to get good patroller's recently and most resorts are being more lax.In my day the only part-timers were chiefs and Capt's in the fire dept who had long since paid there dues.

[summit]

Also EMT is harder to keep current(you have to have so many c.m.e days) for me it was a pain to keep current guiding in the summer and patrolling in the winter.

That's a common argument AGAINST OEC. Lower standards...

[powbear]

There seems to be an argument for and against getting EMT or OEC. I have my OEC for patrol, and it is specific for outdoor emergency care ( does exactly what it says on the tin) which as has been pointed out doesn't help much off the hill, however, as a first responder on the hill, you get a vast amount of experience. A good number of the guys I worked with have gone on to do EMT courses afterwards when they moved on. If you don't want to go that route, the SAR/ Carda program is another way to go from ski patrol, which doesn't need the EMT.
I would go OEC for the kids, and let them know about any EMT programs/ Avi 1 cert programs in the area, so they can choose which way to go. ( Most patrols seem to require avi 1, but not all).

[skeedom]

im sooo ready to bust my ass! and keep my mouth shut if thats what it takes. ive even relented on getting a dog because i want to have an Avi. dog one day. i would really like to patrol a bit through college and then be able to volunteer back country search and rescue when im a little older.

ill raise tower pads in the worst conditions and tobogan gapers down the hill all day if i get to live in a ski town and be on a mountain everyday.

i dunno why people keep saying that an OEC does nothing for you off the mountain. My mom is a resperatory therapist but that doesnt mean she cant help someone having a heart attack. i understand that an OEC is for out door emergencies but if a person cant respond to a medical situation off the hill because of a little technicality like that, i wouldnt trust em with my life on the mountain.

ill have my avi. level 1 after the program ends. so thats good.

[summit]

powbear: your EMT is not US EMT just as your Avi 1 is way more intense than a US Avi 1.

i dunno why people keep saying that an OEC does nothing for you off the mountain. My mom is a resperatory therapist but that doesnt mean she cant help someone having a heart attack. i understand that an OEC is for out door emergencies but if a person cant respond to a medical situation off the hill because of a little technicality like that, i wouldnt trust em with my life on the mountain.

Don't take this the wrong way, but comparing RRT to OEC (or EMT) is like comparing and OEC to someone who took a 4 hour first aid class. That's in terms of education.

However, if I'm broken on a ski hill, an experienced OEC is probably a better choice just because RRTs are not trained for prehospital environments (some interfacility critical care transports excepted). Your medical education will provide you background that you should be able to apply to other areas to some extent. However, an OEC in a hospital is going to be somewhat lost as will an RRT in a wilderness trauma.

[skeedom]

i understand. but im sure if my mom came across someone all broken on a hill she could stabilize em and help. and i suppose it would vary from person to person in their ability to make decisions and knowledge of conditions on a mountain n what not.

i definitely dont plan to stop educating myself ever. i would love to continue to build on the OEC and maybe it could take me somewhere. like working for Nols or something(with more education and experience obviously).

anyways thanks for the fast response summit and the constructive criticism.

[sfotex]

There seems to be an argument for and against getting EMT or OEC. I have my OEC for patrol, and it is specific for outdoor emergency care ( does exactly what it says on the tin) which as has been pointed out doesn't help much off the hill,

EMT, OEC, WFR, it's all pretty basic training. They all teach 99% of the same stuff. Even off the hill, I really don't see what a EMT buys you over a OEC skill wise.
I've had a WEMT but dropped it down to a WFR, it really wasn't worth the hassle when it didn't really matter on the mountain.

[mtnmedic]

EMT, OEC, WFR, it's all pretty basic training. They all teach 99% of the same stuff. Even off the hill, I really don't see what a EMT buys you over a OEC skill wise.

Well, its actually more like about 60% now. Pre hospital medicine has had some real changes and breakthroughs in the last 5 years. (one of the good thing a wars provides) While the super basic things never really change ie: splinting or taking vitals, there are a lot of super important things that are changing. Treatment of shock, ventilation, tourniquets ect ect, all very important things. I just went through this years OEC refresher and am continuously amazed how its the same as it was when I first took it 12 years ago. This year they were talking about the Glascow Trauma Scale, that been an industry standard for a long time now and its just hitting OEC. Medicine is dynamic and changes a lot and I just dont see OEC keeping up.

[skeedom]

so maybe it would be wise to take the OEC and the Wilderness first responder? i dont mind doing both but i dont have 2-3 thousand dollars for WEmt. also its not offered anywhere close to me that i can find.
im gonna also look at getting some second hand medical books just to read up on things that the OEC doesnt include.

[mtnmedic]

so maybe it would be wise to take the OEC and the Wilderness first responder? i dont mind doing both but i dont have 2-3 thousand dollars for WEmt. also its not offered anywhere close to me that i can find.
im gonna also look at getting some second hand medical books just to read up on things that the OEC doesnt include.

I have always advocated taking a regular EMT class. The WEMT has the same core curriculum as the EMT. (it has to to be DOT approved) The rest of the information is really instructor dependent in my experience and can be picked up really easily on the job with a little common sense. Not worth the extra money.

The best class to take is a PHTLS class. (Pre hospital traumatic life support) Its trauma only, is updated regularly, focuses on team work and real life application of the material. Once you get your EMT or OEC try to find one.

[powbear]

Summit: Thanks for the heads up.. new to this side of the pond. So an Avi 1 course isn't standard, like the OEC seems to be across North America? Was kinda led to believe it was.
Skeedom: I agree with your first post. Call me simple, but there's nothing better than waking up in the morning knowing that you love your job, and the opportunities it gives you to enrich your life. I'm sure I'm not the only one that has that, but I have to say, for me... the patrol does that... most days at least

[Bunion 2020]

Why EMT vs OEC?

As has been said above, if you have an EMT, you can challenge OEC and test out and achieve an OEC cert. You cannot challenge EMT and test out if you have only OEC.

That said, OEC IS a very good program.

My patrol is currently an NSP org. That may change in the future.

Why?

We pay our employees NSP membership dues as part of their benefits package. In the past the dues were much cheaper, this year it will cost us a significant amount to cover those costs, in this economy those dollars matter.

All we use the NSP for is access to OEC and the ability to hire people who only have OEC, the rest of the programs that NSP offers are easily duplicated.

This season I had 2 positions open and a lot of applicants. I hired ex-employees who had or were in the process of getting their EMT. It show a commitment to the job and the future.

My opinion.

[phuckhuck]

MTNmedic, agreed on the PHTLS

I took the WEMT course through SOLO this year and almost immediately got a job at a paramedic service that then hooked me up with a PHTLS course at the hospital. Just interviewed for ski patrol last week, and though I have to attend their OEC refresher later with month, I do not need the OEC or need to challenge it as far as I know. I'll pipe back in on that after the refresher though.

PHTLS, was fantastic and I learned WAAAAY more about pre hospital trauma in their two day course than I learned at the WEMT course. Especially since it was designed to teach physicians, paramedics and nursing staff. Far more than just basic stuff, some of it pretty advanced. The WEMT was great for the basics and wilderness application, as well as for helping to find work initially. A regular EMT course would have been great and provided a few months more practice and been cheaper, but if you don't mind spending the $ and wanna get the same info and training faster, just go WEMT.

I considered taking a WFR or OEC instead, but figured for the time and effort, I may as well get the whole shebang, so I went WEMT. It opens up far more options for you than an OEC or WFR course, and I found it to be quite extensive.

I wouldn't do it any other way. I went from unemployed with a sales background (which I hated), to overemployed and having to turn down hours and positions being offered in a new career field, all in less than 3 months. If you have the $ and time, go WEMT, no question....from what I understand OEC is pretty basic stuff and only applies to ski patrol...not too mention, it's behind the times on a few things. My 2 cents....

[noparking]

Just tell them to get their EMT-B at a CC and take the WFR course.

[daver]

I've taken the NOLS WFR and WEMT both within the last year. My 2 cents- the WFR course had MANY more outdoor professional type people. The WEMT was almost all college kids off on summer break. Maybe it was because I took the WFR in October and WEMT in August, but something to consider. We had 3 instructors for 30 students in the WEMT and 2 instructors for about 30 students in the WFR. All 5 instructors (well actually there were only 4 because one taught both courses) were excellent. Two in particular stand out as people I would seek out to take more classes from later down the road no matter what they were teaching.

As most people have said I'd say take the WFR first unless you have a specific job requiring an EMT cert in mind. At the least the WFR is good prep for the WEMT course, which is intense!!! Out of the 30 people in my course only 25 'graduated' and were eligible for the NREMT exam. And of the 25 of us that took the exam only 20 passed. Read as much as possible before and during the course and don't expect to get much else done during the month. Going into the WEMT with WFR training already took quite a bit of stress off the course, particularly in the first week. Of course a NOLS WFR + WEMT was expensive, but if you do the WFR first and are motivated enough then for the WEMT you're probably committed enough to the field that it's worth taking both courses anyway.

This post really has nothing to do with this thread. I was just searching earlier this year for feedback on the NOLS WMI courses and didn't find much current.

[yaadood]

5 year patroller, sierra & EC.

Take an EMT course that is 2 nights a week. The month long intensives make it harder to retain information. Then take a Wilderness Module to upgrade from EMT > WEMT. Those are typically only a week long, taking a WFR also gives you a WEMT- but the WFR is a longer and more expensive course than an upgrade EMT>WEMT module.

I have never taken the OEC, but I have heard that an EMT may petition to take the OEC test without having to take the class and it should be relatively easy.

Take an AIARE Level 1 before you apply. I waited a bit on taking my Level 2, but it's worth it. I would hold off on the American Avalanche Association classes because it is a little more convoluted of a progression. AIARE Level 2 will get you a much better skills training, much faster than taking the 3-5 beginner AAA courses.

To advance in the field definitely try to get to EMT-A or Medic, and Avy 3, Canadian Professional Level I & II are much more intensive than anything we have here. Blasting licenses typically require 3 years of work under a licensed blaster to take the exam.

[noparking]

I'm sure it's been covered for the most part but I'm not going to read through the past 3 pages to make sure. It's all patrol dependent, that being said I would recommend them go for the highest level of training possible out of those 3. They can use a EMT in a handful of different work environments and easily take it state to state. For their sake I would suggest not going with a OEC or WFR, from taking both and teaching both they're a joke of a medical certification. Up here any of the 3 are accepted with most patrols. Patrolling is one of the best/worst decisions I've ever made.

[old goat]

when my kid patolled at Squaw the requirement was OEC for volunteer patrol, EMT for pro.

[summit]

I would hold off on the American Avalanche Association classes because it is a little more convoluted of a progression. AIARE Level 2 will get you a much better skills training, much faster than taking the 3-5 beginner AAA courses.

What are you talking about? 3-5 beginner AAA courses? You realize that AAA writes the educational guidelines that AIARE and AAI use because they all use the Level 1 Level 2 progression including AAA approved courses? (without getting into the coming changes)

To advance in the field definitely try to get to EMT-A

What are you talking about? Do you mean AEMT? Because EMT-A is something different... in the states where it exists...

Canadian Professional Level I ... much more intensive than anything we have here.

What are you talking about?

5 year patroller, sierra & EC.

For a 5 year experienced patroller you are making very little sense...

[Fenris]

Does anyone have any firsthand experience who can compare/contrast the WFR program of instruction from NOLS vs. WMA? Obviously, it depends somewhat on the instructor(s).

I know NOLS is kind of accepted as the "standard," but have heard from more than just a few pretty reputable sources that WMA's hands on/scenarios are more realistic and demanding, and the grading standards are more strict.

I initially took WFR with NOLS/WMI coming from having OEC, and have taken two refreshers and a full course as a refresher from WMA.

I think the biggest comparison between the two is the instructors.

NOLS/WMI often pulls from their general instructor pool to find someone to teach their WFR courses, so some of those instructors approach the course almost s a penance and don't put a lot of energy/enthusiasm into the courses.

All the WMA instructors in the other hand are working for WMA explicitly because they would like to teach medical skills. Most of them are part time for WMA and are in medical fields the rest of the time. They also come from pretty varied backgrounds and WMA derives a ton of experiential knowledge from that, and will also try to match up the right instructor with the organization sponsoring the course. When not leading courses the three WMA instructors I know best are ER nurse/Maine Sea Kayak Guide/Camp & wilderness trip organizational nurse, ski patrol/rural ambulance/fire/search and rescue, and tall ship captain/medical officer.

Coming from ORC my initial WFR course with NOLS/WMI was a breeze but I don't think I got too much out of it other than the card. I felt like I learned far more in my first recert which was with WMA. As you've heard the scenarios are often more realistic. Some of the NOLS guys have only really had to deal with 'fall down on trail go boom' themselves, whereas with the WMA instructors often mean that many scenarios are followed by story time form when they have experienced xyz. They also have a great workbook of scenarios from real incidents too with pages of backing info, and who you can ask for more information about one.

WMA is also allowed to send someone off from a WFR course with just a WFA or other level of cert if they don't make it to WFR standards.

[daver]

WMA is also allowed to send someone off from a WFR course with just a WFA or other level of cert if they don't make it to WFR standards.

This is true for NOLS/WMI as well. You can leave a WFR course with just a WFA and a WEMT course with just a WFR.